Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

Q_student

RAQAB's closest expression is "tie by the neck", The thing with which we tie by Neck is Raqaab, which is a kind of bridle that is used to control horses , Raqaab is a very common word in urdu.

What you are talking about , is the evolved specific meanings in a certain context which is being derived with combination of words, where as what i am trying to convey is the basic route.

What i was trying to convey to TS was , that we can not translate a single word out of this combination(idiomatic use) literally, to what they all convey when grouped together.

siki

DEar brother
I respect your opinion. No doubt as a verb
= Raqaba hoo = means He tied around his neck
But when its noun is used it means "neck" /nape of the neck /figuratively "mamlook " (slave).

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I do not insist on it.If you accept ,so much the better.If not ,absolutely no objection .

handshake
Regards

Fahad1

Fahad,

You asked this, remember?

Quote from Fahad on May 11, 2009, 105923 PM
How are you using both meanings, chaste and married? Do you realize it doesn't make any sense?

Do you realize a married woman can be chaste/honorable?

Yes, a married woman can be a chaste woman, but your use of al-muhsinaat to refer to both married and chaste is illogical because that is what we are disputing, that whether it is referring to the married or the chaste.

This is what you initially asked me

244 those who accuse (chaste/honorable women) ? only married women are honorable.
Therefore, according to your interpretation (in context) single women cannot be chaste.

I don't believe al-muhsinaat means 'chaste/honorable', and you don't believe that it means 'married', so why ask me whether only married women are chaste in 24/4?! It wouldn't make sense. It makes your question sound as if I believe al-muhsinaat means chaste and you believe it means married. You have used the same illogic in some of your other questions as well. If you still haven't understood this, just leave it and move on to the next argument.

Flogged if following Qur?an in an Islamic society

Ok, and that's what matters in this discussion.

and that was my advice in general;

Your advice was to replace the Quranic commandment

Very serious and those who continue to spread such lies should be dealt with mercilessly.

go slander a young lady or married woman especially in some cultures and when her brother or relative hits you with a blunt object, you will have evidence.

No thanks. But even if the accuser brings witnesses, maybe he will still hit him. Maybe he'll even shoot his sister alongwith the accuser. But what's the point of all that? I don't see how all that is relevant to the discussion.

I see now, your presumptions are

almuhsanati are ONLY married.

Yes, that's what I think so far. A woman becomes al-muhsina after nikah/marriage. Are there other ways for women to become al-muhsinaat? I don't know.

punishment for zina ONLY applicable to almuhsanati (the married) women.

Her and the participating man.

singles can have unlimited sex; zina not applicable because they are not married.

But then they are not singles anymore, are they? And zina is only applicable when polyandry is committed.

Which contradicts

243 The male whore does not marry only the female whore

Who is allowed to marry whom above?

The momineen are not allowed this.

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati (the married)

Who is not able to marry the married, how does that work?

These women are from the milkal ayman/MMA. I am not exactly sure who the MMA are, but one thing I know is that they are dependent upon the momineen. I think these women may be the ones who migrated to the momineen, women who are not allowed for the kuffar any longer.(60/10)

2433 And those who do not find marriage should refrain...

re?frain curb, restrain
intransitive verb
to keep oneself from doing, feeling, or indulging in something and especially from following a passing impulse

Refrain from what? What do married people do?

Refrain from zina/fahisha? What else?

55
Today is permitted for you the goodness, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and almuhsanati from the believers, almuhsanati from those who were given The Book from before you, if you gave them their Mahr (reward), marrying not fornicating/adulterating, and not taking lovers, and who disbelieves with the faith, so his deed had failed, and he in the end from the losers.

How does that work again, permitted for you are almuhsanati (the already married) ?

60/10, I think.

Q_student

DEar Brother Truthseeker
I am not in your discussion and do not intend to be. But just want to draw your attention to one point.

You said

2282 .............................. If the one to whom is the right is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men

The underlined sentence gives the impression that commandment is to the "3rd person singular", which is not true.
The actual verse is

I have put it in three colors
1Red it is the Protasis of the conditional sentence
2Green color is the apodosis of the conditional sentence

Blue color does not seem to be a part this conditional sentence because there is suddenly a change of address from 3rd person singular male to 2nd person plural males
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace student,

So do you mean to say that the blue clause applies to the complete sentence before it? If that is true then at least two witnesses will always be required.

BUT if the blue clause is also the apodosis of the conditional clause, then what I said in my above post will be correct.

My question is that why can't the blue clause be the apodosis of the conditional clause. Switching from 3rd person singular to 2nd person plural does not mean that it cannot be the apodosis.

For example I can say in English

If he is immature or weak or unable to dictate, then have his guardian dictate, and bring two witnesses from among your men.

Here, the blue clause is the apodosis of the conditional clause before it, even though it switches to 2nd person plural from the third person singular.

Samia's or Anwar's or Ayman's comments on this issue are invited.

Q_student

Peace student,

So do you mean to say that the blue clause applies to the complete sentence before it? If that is true then at least two witnesses will always be required.

BUT if the blue clause is also the apodosis of the conditional clause, then what I said in my above post will be correct.

My question is that why can't the blue clause be the apodosis of the conditional clause. Switching from 3rd person singular to 2nd person plural does not mean that it cannot be the apodosis.

For example I can say in English

If he is immature or weak or unable to dictate, then have his guardian dictate, and bring two witnesses from among your men.

Here, the blue clause is the apodosis of the conditional clause before it, even though it switches to 2nd person plural from the third person singular.

Samia's or Anwar's or Ayman's comments on this issue are invited.

Dear Brother
It was just my opinion which may be wrong.But my impression is Quran's general strategy is that it addresses in '2nd person plural" in general. Once it has to be specific then it changes the "pronouns" accordingly. (Again just an opinion).
What was hindrance to use the word " " which is in line with 3rd person singular in the previous phrases.

Anyway
1Change in number
2Change in Addressee (from 3rd person to 2nd person)
shows that it is not part of the conditional sentence.
Anyway again I say it is just an opinion you may accept or reject.
Regards

unknownuser

Yes, a married woman can be a chaste woman, but your use of al-muhsinaat to refer to both married and chaste is illogical because that is what we are disputing, that whether it is referring to the married or the chaste.

Contradiction
If married can be chaste one cannot dispute if it is referring to the married or the chaste.

I don't believe al-muhsinaat means 'chaste/honorable', and you don't believe that it means 'married', so why ask me whether only married women are chaste in 24/4?! It wouldn't make sense. It makes your question sound as if I believe al-muhsinaat means chaste and you believe it means married. You have used the same illogic in some of your other questions as well. If you still haven't understood this, just leave it and move on to the next argument.

No, I believe almuhsanati means 'chaste/honorable' and applicable to all females regardless of marital status married, separated, widows, singles ? all except those which are harlots (i.e. loose). What you believe almuhsanati means you yourself admit you are not sure...

Yes, that's what I think so far. A woman becomes al-muhsina after nikah/marriage. Are there other ways for women to become al-muhsinaat? I don't know.

...Her and the participating man.

You are unsure yet at the same time adamant that it?s ?married? women.

But then they are not singles anymore, are they? And zina is only applicable when polyandry is committed.

Again, without being sure you propose ideas with question marks and no, if someone decides to have a quickie or whatever every other day with a different person, they are not married; there is a process marriage, divorce, waiting, before re-marriage?

The momineen are not allowed this.

Right, all believers regardless of marital status are told to avoid

1732 Az-Zin? 'Innahu Kna Fishatan

The adultery/fornication, it is part of a larger category of filth.

These women are from the milkal ayman/MMA. I am not exactly sure who the MMA are, but one thing I know is that they are dependent upon the momineen. I think these women may be the ones who migrated to the momineen, women who are not allowed for the kuffar any longer.(60/10)

Again, you are not sure and contradict the rest of Qur?an, the verse and sentence prior, making almuhsanati only applicable to ma malakat aymanukum.

Refrain from zina/fahisha? What else?

Right, applicable to all believers regardless of marital status.

60/10, I think.

Then read the rest of the chapter in context with verse prior to get the clear meaning?

609-13
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Peace

Fahad1

Contradiction
If married can be chaste one cannot dispute if it is referring to the married or the chaste.

No, I believe almuhsanati means 'chaste/honorable' and applicable to all females regardless of marital status married, separated, widows, singles ? all except those which are harlots (i.e. loose). What you believe almuhsanati means you yourself admit you are not sure...

Sigh...

You are unsure yet at the same time adamant that it?s ?married? women.

I am unsure whether there are other ways of becoming al-muhsina. I do believe nikah makes a woman al-muhsina. But I am willing to reconsider my views if given some evidence against it. Which only shows my willingness to correct myself.

Again, without being sure you propose ideas with question marks and no, if someone decides to have a quickie or whatever every other day with a different person, they are not married; there is a process marriage, divorce, waiting, before re-marriage?

But what is "marriage"? Divorce and waiting is what should be conducted before re-"marriage", but isn't always. When it isn't, it is az-zina.

Right, all believers regardless of marital status are told to avoid

1732 Az-Zin? 'Innahu Kna Fishatan

The adultery/fornication, it is part of a larger category of filth.

Right, applicable to all believers regardless of marital status.

But then again, what is az-zina?

These women are from the milkal ayman/MMA. I am not exactly sure who the MMA are, but one thing I know is that they are dependent upon the momineen. I think these women may be the ones who migrated to the momineen, women who are not allowed for the kuffar any longer.(60/10)

Again, you are not sure and contradict the rest of Qur?an, the verse and sentence prior, making almuhsanati only applicable to ma malakat aymanukum.

How does my unsurity of "MMA" effect the outcome of this discussion?
Which part of my statement contradicts "the rest of the Quran"?
I am not making al-muhsanaat only applicable to "MMA", I am saying that to marry someone who is al-muhsina, she has to be from the "MMA". I am not saying that only MMA are al-muhsinaat.

Then read the rest of the chapter in context with verse prior to get the clear meaning?

609-13
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Does it contradict my understanding in anyway?

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma, everyone,

I made some errors in my previous post and I am re-posting it after correction of my errors

I was pondering on 2282 when it occurred to me that I could be wrong about the number of witnesses and also about whether a written marriage contract is always required.

Let's study 2282 step by step.

2282 O you who believe, if you borrow for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of God, and let him not reduce from it anything.............

The first part of 2282 quoted above talks about normal procedure for DYN/debt/loan. It is obvious that there is only one witness in this scenario, i.e. the scribe who is writing the contract.

Now let's see the second part

2282 .............................. If the borrower is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can reminds the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called.............

This part starts with an IF so everything that is said relevant to this scenario is applicable ONLY to this scenario. This part talks about if the borrower is either immature, or weak, or cannot dictate. I now have the understanding that requirement of the two extra male witnesses applies only to this scenario. This part is of the form IF .............. THEN ............ and the two male witnesses come after the THEN so I think those two extra male witnesses are needed only if the borrower is immature, weak, or cannot dictate. Actually in such a case there will be THREE witnesses. The scribe who writes the document + two male witnesses.

It makes sense that two extra male witnesses will be required because the borrower is immature or weak or cannot dictate, to prevent any possible injustice.

Now let's see the third part

2282 ............... And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it...............

God reinforces the necessity of having a written contract and gives an exception which is that if the transaction is done on the spot then it is not required to write it down.

Let's see the fourth part

2282 ................ And have it witnessed if you conduct business/make an allegiance/covenant..............

This is a continuation of the third part. This would mean that ANY BAAYA3 requires it to be witnessed, no matter what. Here it does not specify how many witnesses so the minimum necessary would be one witness.

Applied to the first two parts it would mean the following

Normal circumstances, but transaction carried out on the spot ------> written contract not required but at least one witness.
Borrower immature or weak or cannot dictate, and transaction carried out on the spot ------> written contract not required but two witnesses required.

Now let's see how that would apply to nikah/marriage.

There can be the following four scenarios

Two parties enter nikah/marriage, and ajr to be paid later, and the husband is not weak, or unable to dictate ------> written contract required and only one witness necessary (the scribe who writes the contract).
Two parties enter nikah/marriage, and ajr to be paid later, and the husband is weak, or unable to dictate ------> written contract required and three witnesses (scribe + two male witnesses).
Two parties enter nikah/marriage, and ajr paid on the spot, and the husband is not weak, or unable to dictate ------> written contract not required and only one witness necessary (because we are told to have the transaction witnessed in the fourth part as described above).
Two parties enter nikah/marriage, and ajr paid on the spot, and the husband is weak, or unable to dictate ------> written contract not required but two male witnesses necessary.

As we can see that at least one witness will always be necessary but a written contract may or may not be required depending on whether the transaction was carried on the spot or was delayed.

In the 3rd and 4th scenario above, there is no written contract and one can then argue that in those cases no written marriage contract is necessary. This may be true because even in 2237, a written marriage contract is mentioned but it is in the context of AJR not yet paid, so it is one of the first two scenarios described above. 2237 talks about divorce, without sexual intercourse, and AJR has been stipulated/specified but not yet paid, thereby necessitating a written contract and this contract is what is referred to in that sign as "oqdat al-nikah"/marriage contract.

EVERYONE PLEASE RE-READ WHAT I HAVE SAID ABOVE CAREFULLY BECAUSE IT CAN APPEAR TO BE A LITTLE COMPLEX, BUT ONCE UNDERSTOOD IT IS NOT THAT COMPLEX.

Summary

SCENARIOS 1 & 2 above written contract necessary + one witness or three witnesses (scribe and two male witnesses) required depending on condition of the husband.
SCENARIOS 3 & 4 above written contract not required + one witness or two male witnesses required depending on condition of the husband.

unknownuser

Sigh...

I am unsure whether there are other ways of becoming al-muhsina. I do believe nikah makes a woman al-muhsina. But I am willing to reconsider my views if given some evidence against it. Which only shows my willingness to correct myself.

Sigh... is a sign of boredom.

If nikah makes a woman almuhsanati then contradiction to say

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati

They cannot be referred to as almuhsanati before marriage (according to you).

But what is "marriage"? Divorce and waiting is what should be conducted before re-"marriage", but isn't always. When it isn't, it is az-zina.

But then again, what is az-zina?

Marriage is a commitment; families and community know they are married. Having sex with a prostitute doesn?t mean you are married to her and already gave definition which in English two words are needed

1732 Az-Zin? 'Innahu Kna Fishatan

Adultery or fornication, which are a sub category Fahisha.

How does my unsurity of "MMA" effect the outcome of this discussion?
Which part of my statement contradicts "the rest of the Quran"?
I am not making al-muhsanaat only applicable to "MMA", I am saying that to marry someone who is al-muhsina, she has to be from the "MMA". I am not saying that only MMA are al-muhsinaat.

Does it contradict my understanding in anyway?

Yes, that nikah makes a woman almuhsanati

1st be clear who is married
2nd be clear on ?ma malakat aymanukum?
3rd be clear on almuhsanati

Then finally you can put together an argument and regardless of exact meaning, almuhsanati minimally needs to be applicable to single and married women (e.g. honorable, etc) to not contradict other verses.

Peace

Fahad1

Sigh... is a sign of boredom.

If nikah makes a woman almuhsanati then contradiction to say

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati

They cannot be referred to as almuhsanati before marriage (according to you).

They CAN be referred to as al-muhsanaat because they were already married(60/10).

By the way, what do you think about my explanation of 4/25? You haven't even addressed my argument for al-muhsinaat being married women!

Marriage is a commitment; families and community know they are married.

So if the family and community has not been informed, then it cannot be called a marriage?

Also back your arguments with the Quran.

Having sex with a prostitute doesn?t mean you are married to her

It means you have committed az-zina.

and already gave definition which in English two words are needed

1732 Az-Zin? 'Innahu Kna Fishatan

Adultery or fornication, which are a sub category Fahisha.

You still haven't given me a definition of zina backed by the Quran.

Yes, that nikah makes a woman almuhsanati

Address my explanation of 4/25.

1st be clear who is married
2nd be clear on ?ma malakat aymanukum?
3rd be clear on almuhsanati

Then finally you can put together an argument and regardless of exact meaning, almuhsanati minimally needs to be applicable to single and married women (e.g. honorable, etc) to not contradict other verses.

Why don't you do that yourself first?

siki

Dear Eid,

"Mohsinnats" This is one topic that I have spent some years exploring, I support you fully with your understanding of this term.

A little add on. The category in 4-22, and 4,23 are not Mohsinnas for you, because 5-5 declares mohsinnas hallal. So the prohibited (haram) 14 (4-22,23) does not fall under this term.

God calls certain categories with specific titles, like, zania, Fahisha, so these women are not Mohsinnas. A mushrika may be a chaste woman, but is not Mohsinna for a believer, Where as an elligible one from people of the book is categoriesed as a "Mohsinna". Eligible means , she does not belong to prohibited 14 nor is zania or Fahisha.

peace

siki

siki

Fahad

Brother Peace

you know I like to discuss a lot of things with you , but it becomes difficult for me when ,

You pop up after such a long time with a reply, that one loses track of the discussion, specially if the thread contains multiple discussion points/posts.
Your argumentation is broken in a way that it becomes a point to point refutation (by you) only, and one does not have a clear idea as to what you want to say or what is your understanding on the issue.

So, I would request you to come up with a short summary of your understandings, complete with the references, as to why you understand so , regarding zina and mohsinnats, and inshallah we would be able to take this discussion somewhere objectively. No offence please.

siki

siki

Fahad

Brother peace

Translating Mohsinnate as married women , is wrongest possible meaning that one can deduce,

Because translating 4-24 as married contradicts 4-25 , and also in 4-25 , the recommendation of marrying a believing mohsinnat from mma cat , who is to be a maiden , completely shatters your undestanding,

I have evaluated every verse containing this term in detail. A chaste hallal/permissible lady is the closest what we can get to translate the Title" MOHSINATE

siki

siki

Fahad

60-10 that you refered , the term being used is Mominaat, Not " mohsinnat" because,
In these mominnats , there is a reasonable possibility that a few may not qualify as mohsinnats for you. As some could be belonging to the Haram category, and some , in your opinion do not deserve the title "Mohsinna"

God is recommending that if some married believing women flee to you , because they dont want to be with those people due to religious difficulties, then , you keep them, and pay back a compensation to their non believing husbands.

And now, if i was the one , who was looking to marry some one out of these mominnat, The recommendation is that i should try my best to pick out a Mohsinna.

siki

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

What do you guys think about the following video?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIrwex24JeM

Peace

siki

While analysing 60-10 , i came across the word "Nafaq", which in my opinion should be translated as compensation , rather than dowry or wage,

Ajar is something which is paid once for rendering a service, and hence can not be undone, if you set an ajar for a woman for sexual services , then when they are rendered, can not be paid back. but if she wants to get rid of you , and you are not ready to leave, because you think you have spent money on her in the shape of ajar and gifts, then she should pay back in the shape of Nafaq.

siki

siki

What do you guys think about the following video?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIrwex24JeM

Peace

I have spent a significant time probing all the relevant verses, there is some truth in what He says, I am still unsure of so many things,following are my views regarding these issues.

1.There is a proper family marriage bonded by term Nikah, and there is no limit on that.

while doing nikah with the women with orphan children , recommendation is to limit it to 4 , for reducing the financial burden.

3.You can woo a woman for a certain compensation , and the relation ship is not bonded by contract nikah , but a compensation/ajar/wage is a must , and this is to have a sexual out let for maintaining chastity for both of you, instead of out pouring your lusts and seeds with so many. Both are restricted to each other. This thing is closer to what shia term as Mutta marriage. However i did not find any time limit conditions , paternity issues,and inheritance commands/orders/recommendations in quran. This needs further exploration, but i definitely get multiple subtle hints to the effect.

MA maLAKAT EMNAKUM, is the right hand possession, and are very close to sexual slave women , No ajar No compensation , for free, No limit. They probably existed then , Quran , issued orders to improve their situation and expected that ultimately this thing would die its own death. Keeping MMA now ? Not possible, but no matter how one denys. it was a reality in history, as there was slavery.

Imagine wars back then , Men killed ,women, kids and oldies taken as pow. what to do with them? So, they were allotted to the people who could afford to feed.
Men become slaves, and some women you desired,were taken/designated as MMA. Her sexual fulfillment regularised and she came under protection of a lone man, and hence was no more a target for fornication.

If it was not done back then , there was a definite chance that they (women) would out pour sexuality (natural instinct) to multiple men, and hence disease.
If there was to be a pregnancy? then No body would own the responsibility for the fear of fornication, and fathers would runaway from the responsibility, and hence the children may not get their fathers name.
Absence of this arrangement would result into rapes, and rivalary among the owners/keepers/winners/conqurers.

;D professor siki

unknownuser

Peace siki,

I have evaluated every verse containing this term in detail. A chaste hallal/permissible lady is the closest what we can get to translate the Title" MOHSINATE

siki

Exactly!

A woman who guards, preserving herself, protects her dignity, similar to the English word lady in a formal respectable sense used to address both married and single adult women.

423 (Forbidden to marry) ?

Continues also forbidden....

424 And almuhsanatu (the lady married) from the women except ma malakat aymanukum

425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries almuhsanati (a lady single) the believing, so from ma malakat aymanukum from your youths (girls) the believers

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
husun n.m. (pl. of husn) 592
hassana vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5914
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 2191, 6612
impf. act. 1248, 2180
impf. pass. 425
pcple. act. 424, 55
pcple. pass. f. 424, 425, 425, 425, 55, 55, 244, 2423
tahassana vb. (5) n.vb. 2433
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222, 223

Sometimes the exact same word can change meaning depending on context; e.g.

411 - he directs you (p) - God - in - you (p) children

to the male - alike - luck/fortune - the two females

5417 ? and We have - eased ? the Qur?an - to the remembrance - so is there - from ? those who remember/are mindful

siki

Peace siki,

Exactly!

423 (Forbidden to marry) ?

Continues also forbidden....

424 And almuhsanatu (the lady married) from the women except ma malakat aymanukum

Red bold part is the key point where most of the translators have gone wrong, A mohsinna would remain a Mohsinna , we can not single out its meaning at one place to mean "Only a married Mohsinna"

AND there is is no prohibited in verse 4-24. whereas there is one each in the previous two, which list the prohibited category

The only way out is ,

God lists the prohibited category in 4-22 and 4-23, and once he is through with counting the haram category , HE starts talking about the eligible Halal category by a certain title.

It is like this,

4-22 wife of your fathers haram, ,, and HE further counts 13 more in 4-23 by starting with mothers daughters, sisters,,,,,,,,etc, and completes the count with sisters in law.

When HE finishes his list by counting all the haram, HE brings/diverts the topic towards the Halal/eligible ones, by calling them with the Title "mohsinats", and tell you how to seek them.

"And The "Mohsinnats", excluding the mohsinnats, from MMa category, Here by i declare a law in this book, that what ever is besides them'; ( listed 14 haram in the previous 2 verses).. are halal for you, if you seek them with your money with a desire to maintain chastity, Not for out pouring your sexuality (just to satisfy your lusts), Thus , who ever you like among them, seek them and before you enjoy them sexually , you must pay their wages. and there is no sin if you mutually agree after the obligation. God is knowledgeable wise.

So basically in 4-24, God is talking about the eligible halal women , and is prescribing the law declaring that you must pay their wages before you take them sexually, and keep in mind that you would commit to each other before full filling your desires. And your aim should be to stay chaste rather than fulfill your uncontrolled lusts.

Setting a wage and giving it before sex is the law for Mohsinnats, however Mohsinnats belonging to MMA category are excluded from this law.

They are their for you to be taken free , NO wages.

If we scrutinize other verses , we consistently find the same law, wage a must for Mohsinnats before you touch them , and this rule not applicable to MMA. But if some one is getting married (Nikah) to a Mohsinna from MMa category, Recommendation is "as a last resort" (4-25) , only if one thinks that one might end up fornicating due to non availability of a mate,and in that case, one must pick a believing young maiden "Mohsinna" from the MMA category.

siki

truthseeker11

Peace Eid, everyone,

THIS POST IS MAINLY ADDRESSED TO BROTHER EID ALTHOUGH IT IS FOR EVERYONE'S BENEFIT.

Brother Eid, I am a big fan of yours and I appreciate your extraordinary discourses that have exposed the falsehood of the so called code 19, but in this matter I beg to disagree with your definition of mohsanaat as "chaste". I also disagree with Fahad's and Siki's definitions, and MOST of what Siki says about mohsanaat and MMA because he creates a lot of contradictions in the qur'aan resulting in nonsensical interpretations.

Mohsanaat CANNOT mean "chaste" as used in the qur'aan because then it will create a MAJOR PROBLEM if it is accepted to mean "chaste".

Mohsanaat CANNOT mean "married" only as used in the qur'aan because as you have astutely observed, it will create HUMONGOUS contradictions in the god's words.

Brother Eid, I appeal to your SHARP logic and request you to carefully consider the following

In 425, MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. The only logical deduction would be that these two categories DO NOT overlap. If men are unable to marry the mohsanaat (of the MMA category as per logical deduction from 424) then they are asked to marry the fatayaat (of the MMA category).

Therefore

If you translate MOHSANAAT as chaste, then it would mean that FATAYAAT are unchaste.

This would be slandering the fatayaat. Brother Eid, please consider this logical outcome of your "chaste" definition.

The ONLY subset of women allowed to be married are MMA.

This is a very important conclusion when we combine 424 and 425. They have to be either MMA from the mohsanaat or MMA from the fatayaat. Once you realize this, then it will become crystal clear to you what these terms actually mean.

What Siki is saying is NONSENSE. I think he is off the rocker on this one.

Mohsanaat in 424 cannot be referring to the halal category with MMA as exception to that, as Siki is saying, because then the interpretation of 424 will become nonsensical.

424 And the mohsanaat from the women, except those possessed by your oath; God?s scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this................

Firstly, the word "and" at the beginning of 424 does not mean that it is the start of a new category other than the forbidden but it means that it is the continuation of the same forbidden category of 423. In the original qur'aanic manuscripts there were no verse numbers. These verse numbers are a human innovation later on. 424 is a continuation of 423.

Secondly, "and permitted for you is what is beyond this" LOGICALLY CAN ONLY MEAN THAT MOHSANAAT ARE THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORY WITH MMA FROM THE MOHSANAAT BEING EXCEPTION TO THAT.

In 424, the MMA who are mentioned are the exception and thus logically a subset of the mohsanaat. This would mean that not all mohsanaat are forbidden, but those mohsanaat that are MMA are allowed. Then in 425 we are told that if men cannot marry the mohsanaat then they can marry the MMA from the fatayaat. But didn't the god just say in 424 that mohsanaat are forbidden except MMA? So how can men marry mohsanaat as implied by 425?

THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION WOULD BE THAT IF MEN WANT TO MARRY MOHSANAAT, THEY HAVE TO FIRST MAKE THE MOHSANAAT MMA. Thus converting the "regular mohsanaat" into "MMA mohsanaat" would become COMPULSORY in order to marry them.

Similarly with fatayaat, we are asked to marry only MMA from them. This again would mean that converting "regular fatayaat" into "MMA fatayaat" would be COMPULSORY in order to marry them.

Now what definitions of these terms will make sense and logically avoid any contradictions in the god's words?

The following is what I propose; please carefully consider this

MOHSANAAT = PROTECTED WOMEN, and because we don't need permission from their guardians they are not guardian dependent, hence they are "GUARDIAN INDEPENDENT PROTECTED WOMEN" according to the context.

FATAYAAT = YOUNG WOMEN, and because we need permission from their guardians they are guardian dependent, hence they are "GUARDIAN DEPENDENT YOUNG WOMEN" according to the context.

MMA = WHAT POSSESSED BY YOUR OATH, and because the context is marriage, this oath can only be an oath to get married to them, hence they are "THOSE WOMEN POSSESSED BY YOUR OATH TO GET MARRIED" according to the context.

This will resolve any contradiction and make total sense.

Following will be the logical implications of 424 and 425 with these meanings

Mohsanaat will include protected independent single women (self protected) and protected married women (protected by marriage) and those mohsanaat who are possessed by your oath to get married (protected by oath to get married).
The only way you can get married to such a woman is to first possess her by your oath to get married to her.
This will automatically disqualify married women because they are possessed by someone else's oath and not your oath, so the married women can never become your MMA.

This point #3 needs to be re-read many times to fully understand it.

Hence the only mohsanaat eligible to become your MMA would be the protected independent single women.
If a man cannot find such a protected independent single woman who can be possessed by his oath, then he is asked to marry a guardian dependent young woman with her guardian's permission, but first he has to possess her by his oath to get married.
Once such a guardian dependent young woman gets married through this procedure, then she gets converted to the mohsanaat category per 425, because now she is protected by marriage.
NO MMA IS EXEMPT of AJR WHEN MARRYING THEM. Siki is really off the rocker on this one. MEN HAVE TO GIVE AJR TO MMA WHEN THEY GET MARRIED TO THEM, because they are the only category allowed to be married.

NO CONTRADICTIONS, NO CONFUSION.

Brother Eid, please go through this very carefully and point out any logical errors that you can see resulting from my proposed meanings.