Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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First you ladies convey that ajar is a compensation for child bearing and rearing, then you come up with, "This role is too honorable to be paid for", and shuttle back "to be a payment for house hold chores".
Are you conveying, " that you consider yourselves a paid servant to a guy who needs one"? and also provide sexual services as a bonus, free and willingly. Is that what you mean?
siki
Salaam siki
I will respond for myself.
I dare you show me whre I said that ajr is a compensation for child bearing and rearing. I specifically mentioned that nursing is to be paid an is not a duty, nor is it part of the marriage ajr. This is from the qur'aan not me. But I also maintained that ajr is an on going payment, and only in my last post to huruf did I eaborate. I strongly rejected payment for sex, and criticized you for upholding such an understanding.And if I believe in a sexless marriage, and that this sexless marriage still has to have a paid ajr, how can I also maintain at the same time that ajr is for sex and child rearing?
I know what I say and remember it. You are the one who neither try to understand what I am saying, nor do you remember, or bother to go back to what I wrote.
Please quote me when you find such contradictions or flopping of opinions in my posts. -
Richer family, higher cast, beauty,etc would always demand premium and you knew very well that I was just giving an example as to how things work in today's scenario. let me re emphsize that I am not giving any new meaning to the word mohsinnate. The truth is "you don't want to understand MMa are the one,s "That you posses with your right hand and are sex slaves" , And hence any mohsinna from this category would love to grab any such opportunity, which makes her a regular Mohsinna.
siki
Does God divide people between higher and lower cast, so that He sets rules for them on these grounds? Does God say that the best to marry is the "higher cast, rich, beautiful"? No. It's always the mu'mins and the muttaqeen. These are YOUR rules, not God's, and God will not change His rules because in your society you have "higher casts" and "untouchables". This in the first place is against God's rules, morals and ethics. No divine rule would be based on them.
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salam samia
Did I ever say that MMa are not a sub set off Mohsinnate? From the day one I am presenting , " one can marry only a Mohsinna, weather she is believing , otul kitab from MMa. Non mohsinnas from these categories are not recommended. It is brother TS , who contrast mosinnas with fatayats of mma, and hence an opposite.
Remember, I was annswering your questions to me, not commenting on your understanding.
If you maintain that MMA are sub category of Muhsans, how come one becomes rich and of a higher status and the other a sex slave?
And this is what Tlepsh said about MMA (you are welcome!!)Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
If any of you have not the physical ability to marry immune women, they may marry believing girls from among those whom your oaths possess(among from those who agree voluntarily) and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith. You are one from another You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their wage in kindness; They shall be
? immune (able to have sex),
? not wanting illicit sex
? not taking lovers.
If they become immune (wanting to have sex), then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the (normal) immune women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.And it's what I also maintain and agree with completely.
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Because God tells us to do so , and Momineen will oblige , for a recompense in hereafter. This is the spirit you have not been understanding samia, and not only that, remember to give them some thing of a value, off which what has God bestowed upon you.
Why would a mu'min keep a slave in the first place? How did he get this slave? And what if his slaves are males? How is he going to give them awy when God did not ask him in this context? Slave traders only sought wealth in this world by this ungodly trade. They were never mu'mins, period.
MMA existed then , the quran issued commandments to improve their situation to a level , where they all gradually melted into society , and were no more.
MMA is in the qur'aan. Its the understanding that I am opposed to. You mean to say "sex slaves existed then". And I say This mindset similar to yours existed then, and this is where you are diriving your understanding, becuase this does not exist NOW and cannot exist, but sexless marriage did, is and will always keep existing.
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Why would a mu'min keep a slave in the first place? How did he get this slave? And what if his slaves are males? How is he going to give them awy when God did not ask him in this context? Slave traders only sought wealth in this world by this ungodly trade. They were never mu'mins, period.
MMA is in the qur'aan. Its the understanding that I am opposed to. You mean to say "sex slaves existed then". And I say This mindset similar to yours existed then, and this is where you are diriving your understanding, becuase this does not exist NOW and cannot exist, but sexless marriage did, is and will always keep existing.
When quran was revealed, people had slaves, and the momins out of them made efforts to free them, because they were believers , and hence followed God's commandments. And if mankind was all believers and were all following naturally what God had conceived in his mind, What was the fun in sending so many scriptures for guidance?
If you close your eyes to the fact that slaves have existed in the history of mankind, and also derive some kind of weird understanding from the words of Quran stating so, despite being a native Arab speaker", Is it any good debating this thing with you?
siki
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Siki, you are taking whatever Samia says and whatever I say and mixing it anyway you fancy as if it was one and the same thing. Well, Samia is Samia and Huruf is Huruf. You cannot answer to Samia and mix in whatever you want to add from my posts nor nswer to me and mix in similarly Samias posts. You are harping on me with the sexless marriage, when actually I havent said myself a word on that, all I have done is try to clarify how Samia got to it and her arguments. In fact you seemed to be bent on making recruits for Samia's understanding by pushing me to join out of despite of your words. But I am still where I was a at the beginning, I am considering everything, Samia's understanding included and I will reach a conclusion whenever I find it justified, or I will not reach if I don't find sufficient foundation.
My understanding is that ajar is a means, not the only one, necessarily, to level the different reprodctive burden, and a burden may be an honour, who doubts it, but it is also work, more or less, depending on the woman and the circumstances. And it is payable regardless of household chores, and it cannot be for the fun, since the woman also has fun, and that is plain, too plain. So there I am not moving, because I see no reason for it. And the reason it says in 4. 34 the qawwamun part and says rijal and not husbands is a statement of the fact of that different burden if nisaa' is interpreted as woman, and, if not, it would still refer in great measure to women due to their heavier burden. Now you do spend a lot of words to ridicule "western" thought and so on because they do not bear in mind that women are different form men -or men different from women- and they ignore that difference, but here you are resolutely ignoring that difference, which doesn't make any sense. Childbearing and its possibility is a burden that burdens woman all her life since birth even it is only because of the expectations, it conditions her whoel existence. If you do not see that, and you seem not too, you do see it when talking overbearingly about the so much exploited differences and how feminism and whatnot ignores them. So, difference or no difference? The difference for you it seems is just that men enjoy sex and women don't and therefore the former pay for the suffering of the latter when having sexual relations so that the one who enjoys by using the other pays for the ride?
You are defending the MMM=female sexual slaves. Defend it all right, it is useful and it allows all of us to have a view of every possible understanding and explore it toour satisfaction, but do not confuse the issue with personal issues with women. You have a brain and you can talk intelligently and many times I appreciate your input, but I am sorry that here you seem to be getting angry because "women" (and men, although these do not seem to anger you as much) do not see aye to eye with you. Please, some comaradeship. I don not think we are enemies or anything. We are all trying and learning according to our ability. Let us stick to the questions and concepts and reason them out and not go into personalities or sexualities or genderalities.
Salaam, siki, my appreciation.
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Does God divide people between higher and lower cast, so that He sets rules for them on these grounds? Does God say that the best to marry is the "higher cast, rich, beautiful"? No. It's always the mu'mins and the muttaqeen. These are YOUR rules, not God's, and God will not change His rules because in your society you have "higher casts" and "untouchables". This in the first place is against God's rules, morals and ethics. No divine rule would be based on them.
Why do you keep beating up an issue giving it a literal touch ,when we do not have a class system in God's scenario. Don't tell me that you are not capable of picking similarity from an example.
And no matter how much you hate it , the class/cast system does exist, with us humans, God created the mankind all equal but we have divided them.
siki
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When quran was revealed, people had slaves, and the momins out of them made efforts to free them, because they were believers , and hence followed God's commandments. And if mankind was all believers and were all following naturally what God had conceived in his mind, What was the fun in sending so many scriptures for guidance?
If you close your eyes to the fact that slaves have existed in the history of mankind, and also derive some kind of weird understanding from the words of Quran stating so, despite being a native Arab speaker", Is it any good debating this thing with you?
siki
The rule of freeing people from any burden (or slavery as you like) is well stated as good citizenship of mu'mins or as an alternative to a punishment/obligation or together with it. You pay from your pocket to relive this soul. No conditions of faith are put to this person. But you want to get a reward for that and be paid with sex? You are not freeing anybody but your lust.
If you close your eyes to the fact that slaves have existed in the history of mankind, and also derive some kind of weird understanding from the words of Quran stating so, despite being a native Arab speaker", Is it any good debating this thing with you?
So what shall we do with these verses containing a practice that does not exist anymore? Throw them away? Or maybe we should not even discuss them?
As an "Arab speaker" I know very well that slave is "3abun mamluuk", and I know it is mentioned in the qur'aan. Also as an "Arab speaker" I know that an identical synonym does not exist in a language. MMA is not "3abdun mamlukun laa yagdiru 3laa shay' an owned slave that has no power to do anything"
1675
Allah sets forth a parable (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.
If those MMA are slaves, this verse should exonerate them from ANY punishment and ANY charity giving.
Why do you keep beating up an issue giving it a literal touch ,when we do not have a class system in God's scenario. Don't tell me that you are not capable of picking similarity from an example.
And no matter how much you hate it , the class/cast system does exist, with us humans, God created the mankind all equal but we have divided them.
siki
I did not say it does not exist. I said it's not godly and no divine command would be based on its existance. The mafia exists, but God does not "regulate" its actions. He prohibits both.
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I asked Samia, now I ask you, siki, where do you get your anderstanding in the Qur'an that MMA= female sex slaves?
Salaam
Peace Brother
Neither of them can define the exact nature of MMA "from the Quran". Ultimately they will have to refer to dictionaries of Classical Arabic.
Regards -
The rule of freeing people from any burden (or slavery as you like) is well stated as good citizenship of mu'mins or as an alternative to a punishment/obligation or together with it. You pay from your pocket to relive this soul. No conditions of faith are put to this person. But you want to get a reward for that and be paid with sex? You are not freeing anybody but your lust.
So what shall we do with these verses containing a practice that does not exist anymore? Throw them away? Or maybe we should not even discuss them?
As an "Arab speaker" I know very well that slave is "3abun mamluuk", and I know it is mentioned in the qur'aan. Also as an "Arab speaker" I know that an identical synonym does not exist in a language. MMA is not "3abdun mamlukun laa yagdiru 3laa shay' an owned slave that has no power to do anything"
1675
Allah sets forth a parable (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.
If those MMA are slaves, this verse should exonerate them from ANY punishment and ANY charity giving.
Where did i say that Male slaves and the women who were possesed with right hand were same? and if you have read my old posts you would exactly know who and how MMA came along .
siki
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I did not say it does not exist. I said it's not godly and no divine command would be based on its existance. The mafia exists, but God does not "regulate" its actions. He prohibits both.
So you mean to say that all wrongs what are happening in this world , as they are happening without Divine approval, so God will not issue any instructions regarding them. Samia! you have really lost your bearings.
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Samia !
salam
You only answer my those posts about which you can dove tail some philosphy. You have uptill now never anserwed any of my pertinent questions concerning the issue directly. Had you answered them , this unnecessary blah blah between us would not happen.
Kindly scroll back , find those, try and answer them , because if you do, your theory will die of natural causes (at least in the eyes of a neutral reader)
And if you cant , i shall relight them for you tomorrow.
siki
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So you mean to say that all wrongs what are happening in this world , as they are happening without Divine approval, so God will not issue any instructions regarding them. Samia! you have really lost your bearings.
No I did not say that. I said God does not regulate them but prohibits them. Show me where in the qur'aan there's a rule for stolen goods, or work resulting form slavery or torture or any aggression. The acts are prohibited and any gain from them should not be allowed as well.
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Remember, I was annswering your questions to me, not commenting on your understanding.
If you maintain that MMA are sub category of Muhsans, how come one becomes rich and of a higher status and the other a sex slave?.How come I do not find all elligible ladies equal in, beauty , status and wealth these days? When i make a best effort to filter out haram zanias fahishas and mushriqas.
siki
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No I did not say that. I said God does not regulate them but prohibits them. Show me where in the qur'aan there's a rule for stolen goods, or work resulting form slavery or torture or any aggression. The acts are prohibited and any gain from them should not be allowed as well.
Is control dissipiation culminating into extinction, identified as a regulation?
Do we have a commandment , like " This day all slaves are free and All MMA upgraded as Nikahed wives of the posseser " ? And if He has NOT done that, You think you carry better wisdom than the All Mighty?
siki
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Where did i say that Male slaves and the women who were possesed with right hand were same? and if you have read my old posts you would exactly know who and how MMA came along .
siki
MMA are of both gender. Scan the qur'aan and you will find that women too can have MMA. Also verses 7022-30 are describing both genders (precisely al musalleen) and is speaking of their MMA or spouses
7029
And those who guard their private parts,
7030Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed
I thought you already know that, but it seems I am giving you an undeserved privilege