Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Salamun alaykum
" Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe " ( 2951 ) .
" O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end " ( 459 ) .
Peace
almarh0m
Great idea bravo
Better to ask God for guidance when your unsure and stick to your reason, logic and heart.
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So, it seems that an important part of answering the initial part of the thread is to determine what are the MMA. One opinion is that they are slaves, or sexual slaves and typically females, another is that they are the spouses in a non-sex marriage, another which I am not sure it has been mentioned in this thread is that they are persons gone over to the believers who were married to unbelievers when they went over and were under the protection of the believers. I do not know whether there are any more theories. If there are, they could be added to the list and may be the whole can be organized and weighed. In and by itself, determining the meaning of MMA is obviously very important. It is also possible that more than one of those meanings might be combined.
Salaam
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Peace Samia
I know you're in discussion but if i'm not wrong you think ajr is something that's ongoing.
I've looked at truthseeker's comments on this and think that he's right based on how the prophet had already given the ujoor 3350
So i just wanted to ask (whenever you can) i'd be greatful if you can give your understanding of ajr in 3350 and how it can be something that's ongoing when it's already been given.
Using 3350, is their a chance that the prophet was already giving ajr before the marrige?
I mean is it definate that ajr has to come after marriage?Could it not be that your giving ajr to someone and then you choose to marry them? Thus after your nikah ajr is already in place??
Thanks
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Using 3350, is their a chance that the prophet was already giving ajr before the marrige?
I mean is it definate that ajr has to come after marriage?Could it not be that your giving ajr to someone and then you choose to marry them? Thus after your nikah ajr is already in place??
Salaam nimnimak_11
3350
O Prophet! verily We have made lawful to you your wives to whom have given their hires, and also those whomsoever your right hand owns of those whomsoever Allah has granted you , and the daughters of your paternal uncle, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncle, and the daughters of your maternal aunts, who migrated with you, and any believing woman, when she offered herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to wed her --purely for you, above the rest of the believers. Surely We know that which We have ordained to them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands won in order that there may be no blame upon you And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
I do not find this a strong point. The whole verse should be in the past, yet there is a conditional sentence/case in it. All the translators put the verse in the present perfect. Wouldn't it be that he had been paying the wages up to the moment of the verse? In fact the context is signaling out those who "had been actually married and paid" out of the others who would be paid (if he marries them). Has the prophet married all these women, or he was just told that they were lawful in case he wanted to marry them? The verb tense is to be taken in context.
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Thanks Samia
Wouldn't it be that he had been paying the wages up to the moment of the verse?
That was amongst the things i was considering.
Two more questions please
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Considering that ajr is ongoing Once i begin to give ajr, i have started my obligation. Does this mean that i am married (considering all other things have been done)? Also what happens when i stop giving ajr? Does this mean that i'm no longer 100% married?
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I was interested in this part of the verse "O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry"
What is the purpose of the word lawful here? If they are already married which is implied by the usage of the word "wife" and the prophet has given the ajr, then in what way do they need to be lawful to each other? Sex? Wouldn't this mean that more then one women would be lawful to him at a time?? So does this mean that it would have been lawful for him to sleep with more then 1 woman o ???
Thanks
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Thanks Samia
That was amongst the things i was considering.
Two more questions please
- Considering that ajr is ongoing Once i begin to give ajr, i have started my obligation. Does this mean that i am married (considering all other things have been done)? Also what happens when i stop giving ajr? Does this mean that i'm no longer 100% married?
No, I do not think this stops marriage. Divorce is a longer process. Your wife can either divorce you or the community may interfere and try to solve the problem (412.
- I was interested in this part of the verse "O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry"
What is the purpose of the word lawful here? If they are already married which is implied by the usage of the word "wife" and the prophet has given the ajr, then in what way do they need to be lawful to each other? Sex? Wouldn't this mean that more then one women would be lawful to him at a time?? So does this mean that it would have been lawful for him to sleep with more then 1 woman Shocked Huh?
Made lawful to you does not mean you can marry all of them at once!. If the doctor tells you that you can eat vegetables, fruit and fish, this does not mean you have to eat all of them .
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No, I do not think this stops marriage. Divorce is a longer process. Your wife can either divorce you or the community may interfere and try to solve the problem (412.
Made lawful to you does not mean you can marry all of them at once!. If the doctor tells you that you can eat vegetables, fruit and fish, this does not mean you have to eat all of them .Thank you for the help.
peace
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What happened to this thread anyways? Have you come up with a consensus?
I doubt that there will be any consensus. Also there is no hurry. This is an opportunity to think through and throughly many questions that arise in connection with this subjet. As far as I am concerned one such fundamental question is the meaning or meanings of "ma malakat aymanu(cum)". I intend to study each occurrence of the term and that takes time. No more than three steps and one is already muddled up. Also there is no guarantee that one will come to a final conclusion and maybe there is also no need. God will provide.
Salaam
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I doubt that there will be any consensus. Also there is no hurry. This is an opportunity to think through and throughly many questions that arise in connection with this subjet. As far as I am concerned one such fundamental question is the meaning or meanings of "ma malakat aymanu(cum)". I intend to study each occurrence of the term and that takes time. No more than three steps and one is already muddled up. Also there is no guarantee that one will come to a final conclusion and maybe there is also no need. God will provide.
Salaam
Peace,
I was just confused as to where everyone went as I couldn't find a consensus. But of course like you said there is no hurry and God will provide.
I pray that God will guide you on your study.God bless
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http//www.jesus-for-all.com/media/Sha7rour-Marriage-RightHand-Possession/transcript.html
any opinions about this?
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http//www.jesus-for-all.com/media/Sha7rour-Marriage-RightHand-Possession/transcript.html
any opinions about this?
I think the doctor has a very negative attitude towards women and children. People, who don't think men have a responsibility towards their children, are scum.
Sheikh Khaled Our professor. What happens if there was pregnancy out of adultery? In case the relationship is behind closed doors, nobody is watching and the rest of the conditions you told us do not apply.
Dr Shahrour Yes, it's her fault then.
Sheikh Khaled Then what?
Dr Shahrour It's her fault that she agreed to that.
Sheikh Khaled What do we tell her now; throw away your baby in the basket?
Dr Shahrour It's her fault I'm saying, her fault. I'm telling you that 80% of the relationships on earth are allowed (halal).
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I think the doctor has a very negative attitude towards women and children. People, who don't think men have a responsibility towards their children, are scum.
True, he could have said "use contraception" or something. But what do you think about Dr. Shahrour's arguement as a whole?
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True, he could have said "use contraception" or something. But what do you think about Dr. Shabbir's arguement as a whole?
dr shabbir? who is that?
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Sheikh Khaled Our professor. What happens if there was pregnancy out of adultery? In case the relationship is behind closed doors, nobody is watching and the rest of the conditions you told us do not apply.
Dr Shahrour Yes, it's her fault then.
Sheikh Khaled Then what?
Dr Shahrour It's her fault that she agreed to that.
Sheikh Khaled What do we tell her now; throw away your baby in the basket?
Dr Shahrour It's her fault I'm saying, her fault. I'm telling you that 80% of the relationships on earth are allowed (halal). /quote]
my two pence on this point khaleed talks about his definition of adultery(actually "fornication", much vaster than shahrours. shahrours answer is on the few cases he considers adultery (when a man has sexual intercourse with a woman married with another man). i guess this is why his answer seems so mysoginistic.
the quote underneath
Dr Shahrour It's up to them, if he clears her she is his right hand possession, if she clears him he is her right hand possession.
/quote] shows thats his views are not that mysoginistic . Which scholar would accept a man to be a woman right hand possession ;Din all, i think what he says has inner logic. would be easier to understand and follow as an article though instead of an inteview
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dr shabbir? who is that?
Sry, mixed up the names, because i have been reading stuff on ortbeacon.org, which is the website of another Quran-aloner, Dr. Ahmed Shabbir. It is Dr. Shahrour.