La Yamusuhu Ila Al Mutaharoon- only the mutahirron should touch the Koran?
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From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Tay-ha-Ra = to be or become clean/pure or free of dirt, made it or caused it to be distant/remote, cleanse/wash/purify, refrain, remove oneself, to clear/clean, ablution.
tahara vb. (1) - impf. act. 2222
athar n.m. (comp. adj. of tahir) 2232, 1178, 3353, 5812
tahur n.m. (adj.) 2548, 7621tahhara vb. (2) - perf. act. 342
impf. act. 56, 541, 811, 9103, 3333
impv. 2125, 2226, 744
n. vb. 3333
pcple. act. 355
pcple. pass. 225, 315, 457, 5679, 8014, 982tatahhara vb. (5) - perf. act. 2222
impf. act. 782, 9108, 2756
impv. 56
pcple. act. 2222, 9108Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 171, 172, 173
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Peace
Here, 'touch' means comprehend/grasp.
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That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable,
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In Book well-guarded,
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Which none shall touch but those who are clean
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A Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds
It may be talking about its writing and recording(scribes) or its protection while being revealed
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Peace
Here, 'touch' means comprehend/grasp.
Possibly. Do you know if the same word means grasp/ comprehend elsewhere in the Quran?
That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an (77) In a Book kept hidden (7 Which none toucheth save the purified, (79) A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. (80) Is it this Statement that ye scorn, (81) And make denial thereof your livelihood? (82)
The Quran is kept hidden in the book, if I am correct, means the Quran is the actual content/meaning/revelation, not the actual physical book which is paper and ink. None will comprehend the Quran except the purified. It is a revelation from God. The non-purified will be angry about the Quran.
One translation translates the last verse as your livelihood is made up of declaring the Quran as false. So this can mean the disbelievers who claim that the Quran is man-made or those who contradict the Quran, claiming it is not complete. So they live their lives not truly believing in the Quran. Kinda like in Yahoo answers when I answer an Islamic question using Quranic verses and all the muslims give me thumbs down! -
Possibly. Do you know if the same word means grasp/ comprehend elsewhere in the Quran?
That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an (77) In a Book kept hidden (7 Which none toucheth save the purified, (79) A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. (80) Is it this Statement that ye scorn, (81) And make denial thereof your livelihood? (82)
The Quran is kept hidden in the book, if I am correct, means the Quran is the actual content/meaning/revelation, not the actual physical book which is paper and ink. None will comprehend the Quran except the purified. It is a revelation from God. The non-purified will be angry about the Quran.
One translation translates the last verse as your livelihood is made up of declaring the Quran as false. So this can mean the disbelievers who claim that the Quran is man-made or those who contradict the Quran, claiming it is not complete. So they live their lives not truly believing in the Quran. Kinda like in Yahoo answers when I answer an Islamic question using Quranic verses and all the muslims give me thumbs down!The reason why people give you the thumbs down is Koranist usually interpret the verses according to THEIR OWN understanding and do not reveal the different interpretation of that verse. Many Koranist just don't reveal to others how other Koranist interpret the verses of the Koran. I see this all the time. For some reason, I am still trying to figure it out, many Koranist don't recognize except their own interpretation. Its something I am yet to understand.
I think its always wise to show people how other Koranist interpret the verses, because this gives people a better chance to at least accept one of the interpretation. But rarely did I ever see a Koranist reveal to others how other Koranist interpret the verses. If people here do not accept your interpretation(at least not all of them) what makes you think that Sunnis would?
In fact I don't read the verses about Mutahiroon the way you do, but I bet in a debate you would only reveal your own interpretation. There is still a hang-up when it comes to pluralism. Koranist also use the term disbelievers, shirk and deviants very quickly. It boils down to the inability to accept other view points. So I am not surprised that Sunnis will give you the thumbs down because you are not revealing to them the other interpretation of the verses you are discussing. Now I am not saying thats what you do but i am talking about it generally.
What we need is a book called the Koranic path that outlines the various interpretation of the Koran by different Koranist. This way people can see the full view point of the Koranist movement. But I don't see that happening from any Koranist. Maybe some academic will do that. The book can have different chapters like Theology, Salat, Ramadan, Haj, Heaven and Hell, Intercession, War and Fighting, Zakat, Divine attributes, stories of the prophets, Halal and Haram, Marriage, Crime, Dietary laws etc.
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The reason why people give you the thumbs down is Koranist usually interpret the verses according to THEIR OWN understanding and do not reveal the different interpretation of that verse. Many Koranist just don't reveal to others how other Koranist interpret the verses of the Koran. I see this all the time. For some reason, I am still trying to figure it out, many Koranist don't recognize except their own interpretation. Its something I am yet to understand.
I think its always wise to show people how other Koranist interpret the verses, because this gives people a better chance to at least accept one of the interpretation. But rarely did I ever see a Koranist reveal to others how other Koranist interpret the verses. If people here do not accept your interpretation(at least not all of them) what makes you think that Sunnis would?
In fact I don't read the verses about Mutahiroon the way you do, but I bet in a debate you would only reveal your own interpretation. There is still a hang-up when it comes to pluralism. Koranist also use the term disbelievers, shirk and deviants very quickly. It boils down to the inability to accept other view points. So I am not surprised that Sunnis will give you the thumbs down because you are not revealing to them the other interpretation of the verses you are discussing. Now I am not saying thats what you do but i am talking about it generally.
What we need is a book called the Koranic path that outlines the various interpretation of the Koran by different Koranist. This way people can see the full view point of the Koranist movement. But I don't see that happening from any Koranist. Maybe some academic will do that. The book can have different chapters like Theology, Salat, Ramadan, Haj, Heaven and Hell, Intercession, War and Fighting, Zakat, Divine attributes, stories of the prophets, Halal and Haram, Marriage, Crime, Dietary laws etc.
I clearly said 'if I am correct' as I am unsure of the correct translation, and as this is a discussion, we can work on it together. Whereas on yahoo answers i will only give verses from the Quran and not an interpretation. It is up to the questioner to interpret it themselves. The reason why I get thumbs down is when it comes things like declaring things haram/ halal and I give an obvious verse which states do not declare things as halal/ haram when God hasn't and when people say that the Quran isn't complete etc. I have never given an interpretation as an answer as that would be my interpretation only.
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I clearly said 'if I am correct' as I am unsure of the correct translation, and as this is a discussion, we can work on it together. Whereas on yahoo answers i will only give verses from the Quran and not an interpretation. It is up to the questioner to interpret it themselves. The reason why I get thumbs down is when it comes things like declaring things haram/ halal and I give an obvious verse which states do not declare things as halal/ haram when God hasn't and when people say that the Quran isn't complete etc. I have never given an interpretation as an answer as that would be my interpretation only.
Once again I said general. I knew you were going to take it as personal.
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Peace
Thats fine I was just saying that I never give my own interpretation as an answer or in a debate. I would only use it in a discussion so that we can work on it together and learn from oneanother. I would be interested to know how you view the verses.
I would never call someone a disbeliever etc to their face but how would you describe someone who rejects the Quran's verses (not interpretation)?
God bless
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The reason why people give you the thumbs down is Koranist usually interpret the verses according to THEIR OWN understanding and do not reveal the different interpretation of that verse. Many Koranist just don't reveal to others how other Koranist interpret the verses of the Koran. I see this all the time. For some reason, I am still trying to figure it out, many Koranist don't recognize except their own interpretation. Its something I am yet to understand.
I dont think people get the thumbs down for that reason. They more likely get it because the person giving them the thumbs down disagrees or dislikes the view expressed.
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Peace
Thats fine I was just saying that I never give my own interpretation as an answer or in a debate. I would only use it in a discussion so that we can work on it together and learn from oneanother. I would be interested to know how you view the verses.
I would never call someone a disbeliever etc to their face but how would you describe someone who rejects the Quran's verses (not interpretation)?
God bless
What I am trying to say that we should define who is a believer and disbeliever from the Koran. The Koran says God made as as different communities, whether these communities are tribal, ethnic, national or religious. The Koran say
5.43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
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And this (He commands) Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.
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Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.
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O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
Here the Koran makes it clear that though the Koran, Gospel and OT are three different communities of believers, they are one in faith. There are believers among these communities and non believers.
Sunnis take these verses as meaning theocratic laws in an Islamic state. There is the famous hadith in Sahih Muslim
'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported
A Jew and a Jewess, who had committed adultery, were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said What do you find in Torah for those guilty of adultery? They said We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hands on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. 'Abdullah bin Salam who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.Of course this hadith is a fabrication(I believe, I have no proof). Why, because what would happen if the adulterers were Christians and the Gospel was used? There is no theocracy in the Gospel. It is quite clear the Koran is not talking about a theocracy where Muslims live by Islamic law and Jews and Christians by Christian and Judaic law, as the case in the so called Islamic state. The Koran is saying each community should take its religious laws from the scriptures and not from(I believe) the talmud, the Church and their trinity and the so called hadith of Muslims.
This is because the religion of the scriptures are one, but they are followed by different communities. These communities have abandoned the scriptures for man made dogmas with each accusing the other of disbelief regardless of an individuals faith in God and the hereafter.
It is clear the Sunnis could not bring a hadith of a theocratic nature regarding Christians so they brough a Jew instead to twist the verse to mean the law of man and not the law of God. It is clear that the same hadith could not have worked with a Christian and a Gospel.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
The Koran then say
"To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way"
So its not believing in the Koran that we should emphasize but what was revealed by the Koran. The religion of the Koran is the religion of all the scriptures. Yes the scriptures differ in detail and linguistic but they have the same theology. Which is what I have said before, the Koran is a Book of theology.
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (262, 569, and many other verses).
"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (566).
Our message to Christians should be to remind them about holding to the teachings of the Gospel and not the Church or any Christian denomination that adds a theology that contradicts the OT, Gospel and the Koran alike
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4171).
These verses in chapter 5 are very important in understanding the intended message of the Koran. To remind people to hold to the teachings of the scriptures. But faith is all about faith in God and the hereafter and we should define it in any other way but the Koran's way.
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