2:73 - 1400 years of misinterpretation solved?
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peace Taj,
The only feminine in the context of is a pronoun (ha in ا that refers, in my understanding, to the slaughtered cow.
Yes, the only feminine in 273 is as you say.
However, you then say this feminine refers to the slaughtered cow BUT there are other feminines, e.g. in 272 (the murdered soul and the murder), thus it is possible the feminine in 273 could refer to either of these. The evidence strongly points to 'the murder'.
If you are still confused, please clarify specifically what with. Thanks.
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"Like this"...and "this" is what? sharing/accepting the part of responsibility for murder?
Certain people are asked to do a certain thing for exposing the truth of murder which was being diffused by them. And the same people who did that act were told "This is how Allah revives the dead people".
It is "in this way..." or "like this..." NOT "this is how...".
"how" does not exist in the Arabic, which is "kayfa". God does not revive the dead in this manner, if you disagree, please state the Quranic evidence.
Afterwards this episode their hearts became hardened. Seeing a dead man whom one has murdered himself revived to life is the ultimate sign for opening his eyes and heart for the resurrection after death. If this goes unnoticed, it will result only in hardening of heart.
The verses have nothing to do with resurrection.
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peace herbman,
Thanks for the additional info. If taken in the traditional understanding, it does seem 273 is the odd one out, giving further evidence to my interpretation. There is no strange method used in reviving the dead in the other occurrences. I also just realised it says after "like this / in this way God revives the dead" but based on the traditional understanding if that is true, then God went a strange way about it, e.g. by using intermediates such as human and a piece of cow, so technically God didn't do it Himself, which again, goes against the Arabic.
The evidence is stacking up. -
Peace Wakas,
peace Taj,
Yes, the only feminine in 273 is as you say.
However, you then say this feminine refers to the slaughtered cow BUT there are other feminines, e.g. in 272 (the murdered soul and the murder), thus it is possible the feminine in 273 could refer to either of these. The evidence strongly points to 'the murder'.
If you are still confused, please clarify specifically what with. Thanks.
Ok, that I get now..
And what about idribooho? -
idriboohu = idriboo + hu (him/it)
The only masculine in context, is in 272, and that is the murderers/guilty, which is in the masculine plural. The murdered soul is feminine. See my translation below
P=plural
F=feminine
M=masculineAnd when you (P) killed a soul (F), so/then you (M, P) accused each other in it (F), and God (is) bringing out what you were hiding/concealing (M, P).
So We said "idriboo him (M) with some of it (F)." Like this God revives the dead (P) and He makes you realise His signs/revelations, maybe you reason/comprehend.The traditional understanding is that the murdered soul (F), must have been male, and whilst this is theoretically possible, it is not in the Arabic and is completely made up.
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Peace Wakas,
idriboohu = idriboo + hu (him/it)
The only masculine in context, is in 272, and that is the murderers/guilty, which is in the masculine plural. The murdered soul is feminine. See my translation below
P=plural
F=feminine
M=masculineAnd when you (P) killed a soul (F), so/then you (M, P) accused each other in it (F), and God (is) bringing out what you were hiding/concealing (M, P).
So We said "idriboo him (M) with some of it (F)." Like this God revives the dead (P) and He makes you realise His signs/revelations, maybe you reason/comprehend.The traditional understanding is that the murdered soul (F), must have been male, and whilst this is theoretically possible, it is not in the Arabic and is completely made up.
That is fine. But you haven't explained here what "idribooho" means? You are saying that the "ho" in "idribooho" goes to the murdered telling us that he must have been theoretically a male.. and that it is not in the Arabic and is completely made up!? Please tell me, what exactly is the made up? Is it the story of the murdered man, or the meaning of idribooho, or the "ho" referring to a murdered male? You lost me in that part.
I quote you again here
The traditional understanding is that the murdered soul (F), must have been male, and whilst this is theoretically possible, it is not in the Arabic and is completely made up.
If I would agree with you, for the sake of the discussion, you still haven't explained here what "idribooho" means.
Btw, how does "faddaara'atum" mean so then you accused each other? This is a new meaning.. But we can delay this point till later, after "idribooho".
peace
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peace Taj,
Please re-read what I said very carefully. You have interpreted what I said in the opposite of what I meant it!
idriboohu = idriboo (point out) + hu (him)
Or you could translate it as "indicate him", or "cite him".
"him" refers to an individual/one of the murderers/guilty in the previous verse 272.
The murdered person/nafs is referred to as grammatically female in 272. Are you saying it is acceptable in Arabic and is actually done in The Quran to refer to something as female then male? I personally do not know, so I am curious to know if this is valid.
And as for my translation of "faddaara'atum", see Lane's Lexicon. In it, it specifically states this translation. You could argue it is an interpretation more than a translation, but by deduction, we can work out it does indeed mean "accusing each other". The whole phrase literally means "you averted/pushed away /repelled each other in it (feeha)". What are they averting/pushing away/repelling? The Quran tells us, it is "feeha = in it". Thus, the only possibility is they are literally pushing away in the dead body, OR, they are pushing away in the murder, and logically, the latter can only mean they were pushing away the accusation or the sole responsibility for it. This is further proven by what follows, when it says they were concealing/hiding. One simply needs to ask what can they (the ones who did it) possibly be concealing by repelling each other in it? The translation option then becomes obvious.
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Peace Wakas,
peace Taj,
Please re-read what I said very carefully. You have interpreted what I said in the opposite of what I meant it!
idriboohu = idriboo (point out) + hu (him)
Or you could translate it as "indicate him", or "cite him".
"him" refers to an individual/one of the murderers/guilty in the previous verse 272.
The murdered person/nafs is referred to as grammatically female in 272. Are you saying it is acceptable in Arabic and is actually done in The Quran to refer to something as female then male? I personally do not know, so I am curious to know if this is valid.
And as for my translation of "faddaara'atum", see Lane's Lexicon. In it, it specifically states this translation. You could argue it is an interpretation more than a translation, but by deduction, we can work out it does indeed mean "accusing each other". The whole phrase literally means "you averted/pushed away /repelled each other in it (feeha)". What are they averting/pushing away/repelling? The Quran tells us, it is "feeha = in it". Thus, the only possibility is they are literally pushing away in the dead body, OR, they are pushing away in the murder, and logically, the latter can only mean they were pushing away the accusation or the sole responsibility for it. This is further proven by what follows, when it says they were concealing/hiding. One simply needs to ask what can they (the ones who did it) possibly be concealing by repelling each other in it? The translation option then becomes obvious.
I think I understand now what you are trying to say, but I don't agree with it.
I think that 272 speaks about a bunch of bad guys who were plotting something evil. However, it seems they were not sure about one guy among them, thinking he might tell on them, so they killed him. The murderers thought that the murder crime could help them in two ways. First, the deceased could not tell on them, and second, Moses and the rest of people were too busy with this crime, trying to find out who the killer was, and so too distracted to pay attention to any tumultuous plot going on behind the scenes. The bad guys thought they could escape fingers pointing at them in regard to the bigger crime, by hiding behind the noise of this murder scene. It was like a shield to them. They thought they could use it to their benefit. But Allah assured that He will bring out what those guys were keeping secret about.
Iddara'atum could mean taking precaution. Iddara'atum minha being careful from. Iddara'atum feeha to hide with it from..
This is my latest contemplation of 272.. I am yet to find out its relation to 273.
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peace Taj,
Your contemplation mixes up the order of events
Taj
not sure about one person ---> killed them
i.e.
iddara'atum ---> killed them ?Quran
killed the person ---> then iddara'atumAlso, your translations of "Iddara'atum minha being careful from. Iddara'atum feeha to hide with it from.." do not correspond with Quranic usage of Dal-Ra-Alif. From PRL
Dal-Ra-Alif (Dal-Ra-Hamza) = To repel, revert, drive off; put off, avert, overcome, combat, quarrel, urge, rush suddenly, repel in a quarrel, disagree.
Yadra'u (imp. 3rd. p.m. sing.) He shall avert.
Ida'rauu (prt. 2nd. p.m. plu.) Avert; repel.
Yadra'uu (imp. 3rd. p.m. plu.) They avert; combat.
Iddara'tum (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu. IV.) You quarelled among yourselves; differed among yourselvesdara'a vb. (1)
impf. act. 1322, 248, 2854
impv. 3168iddara'a vb. (6) perf. act. 272
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 30, 31, 32
Interestingly, I think what we will see is that The Quran will only allow for one interpretation that makes sense, but we shall see.
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Peace Wakas,
peace Taj,
Your contemplation mixes up the order of events
Taj
not sure about one person ---> killed them
i.e.
iddara'atum ---> killed them ?Quran
killed the person ---> then iddara'atumAlso, your translations of "Iddara'atum minha being careful from. Iddara'atum feeha to hide with it from.." do not correspond with Quranic usage of Dal-Ra-Alif. From PRL
Interestingly, I think what we will see is that The Quran will only allow for one interpretation that makes sense, but we shall see.
I have no clue of what you are trying to say.
Can you, please, link your thoughts? -
peace Taj,
I feel it is clear enough, thus only needs careful re-reading and consideration. It does not matter though, if you come up with a translation of 272-73 that fits the grammar, Arabic, logic and cross-referencing, feel free to post it here.
Until then, peace.
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I was reading Lane, and it also says DRB is used to mean "assign (e.g. a share)", especially by the lawyers / in legal rulings. Giving "assign him with some of it (the murder)" in 273, which is again similar to what I said and pretty much the same thing.
Seems kinda obvious in hindsight.
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I was reading Lane, and it also says DRB is used to mean "assign (e.g. a share)", especially by the lawyers / in legal rulings. Giving "assign him with some of it (the murder)" in 273, which is again similar to what I said and pretty much the same thing.
Seems kinda obvious in hindsight.
Does Mudarba has anything to do with this meaning of root DRB?
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I need someone to explain to me what this means "Indicate him with some of it (the murder)".
What does it mean? How do you indicate someone with a part of a murder?
Did you read the original post?
It can be taken as
"cite/indicate or point out him with some of it (the murder)"
or
"assign him with some of it (the murder)"Both work.
When a group of people are guilty of killing another person they take collective responsibility, i.e. each one of the guilty is assigned a part of the blame/crime.
They were blaming each other in order to obfuscate what they did. They were pointing the finger at each other, so to speak, "X did it" "Y did it" "Z did it" even though they all played a part, so the verse instructs "cite/indicate (or point out) him with some of it (the murder)", which exposed them and left them with no choice but for each to take some of the blame.
