FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM
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Peace Cushan,
Prayer in judaism and Christianity clearly evolved.
No. Prayer which is nothing but one's supplication and one of the forms of worship was clearly taught to humans by God as can be seen in revealed books like the first chapter(division/collection) named "The Key" in the Quran.
Originally praying (according to the Bible) was meditation and 'talking' to God.
Yes, prayer is always like talking to God(the act of supplication) but meditation is one of the acts of worship and not a prayer.
After the end of the sacrificial service the daily sacrifices became uniform prayers.
There is no end of the sacrifical service as claimed by the so-called christians. It has only been stopped by the Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, et al and will be resumed in the forthcoming Messianic age when the Messiah(not Jesus but the one expected by all nations) appears.
The burnt offering of sacrificed animals is SALAT and it is NOT prayer or uniform prayer.
Christianity reflects this in Jesus' (according to the New Testament) telling people to hiding themselves away for personal prayer and not to make a spectacle for the uniform prayer, i.e. The Lord's Prayer.
Christianity with all of its denominations is a false religion and does reflect only the satanic dogma which will be annihilated when the Messiah appears.
The Quran only commands to keep regular prayers and not to make a spectacle out of it.
First of all, Salat is NOT a regular prayer. It is time-bound specified(ritual) worship ie fire oblation. Not only Quran but all law making revealed books contain God's commadment for such a worship.
If the Arabs resemble the Persians or Jews in prayer it's because of borowing, not because Zorostrianism is a revealed religion or because Rabbinical Judaism is God-given.
There is only one religion. So Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Taoism and other revealed religions are only branches of this ONE RELIGION and hence have common belief systems in many aspects. The similarities are not because of borrowing belief systems but due to their same source ie God.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Progressive1993,
2563 The servants of the Gracious who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say, "Peace."
Peace.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Good to see that you couldnt refute/counter what I have said. Seems as if you had nothing to say. And nice copying of what I did with the verse. I didnt even wrongly insult you.
Anyways,
Peacepeace
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Peace Progressive1993,
Good to see that you couldnt refute/counter what I have said. Seems as if you had nothing to say. And nice copying of what I did with the verse. I didnt even wrongly insult you.
Anyways,
Peacepeace
I do not want to respond to an utter foolishness!!!
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Progressive1993,
I do not want to counter an utter foolishness!!!
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Whatever, vivek. I see that you are quite angry... wow..
I think the others here agree with me that the Quran is complete and that we should uphold it alone as the source of our religion. I dont think we have to adapt the Quranic Islam to Hinduism or other religions. You couldnt answer my questions, and your accusation of me having used Rashad Khalifa's good translation of the Quran is totally false. A lie. See 2563 and4140 It has been sent down to you in the book, that when you hear God's signs being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the ingrates in hell all together..
Peace and Bye.
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Whatever, vivek. I see that you are quite angry... wow..
I think the others here agree with me that the Quran is complete and that we should uphold it alone as the source of our religion. I dont think we have to adapt the Quranic Islam to Hinduism or other religions. You couldnt answer my questions, and your accusation of me having used Rashad Khalifa's good translation of the Quran is totally false. A lie. See 2563 and4140 It has been sent down to you in the book, that when you hear God's signs being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the ingrates in hell all together..
Peace and Bye.
Peace progressive1993,
You are a proven hypocrite. Every unbiased reader will find that the present Quran is incomplete in many respects due to its tampering by scribes who edited the original Quran and compiled the present Quran incorporating only the text they wanted while discarding the other portions of the original Quran. It is evident from the fact that the present Quran does NOT give full details of how the very obligatory duties such as Salat, Zakat,etc and many more religious laws/duties should be performed. When traditionalists fabricated their own lies, hypocites who call themselves Quran aloners invent their own meanings(ie Zakat means purification, Salat means assembly/contact and so on) that negate the very purpose of God's religion and serve the purpose of Satan.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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It is not my problem if you call God's words incomplete. I firmly believe and trust God when he tells me that no one can abrogate his words and that his words are completed in the Quran and when he says that the Quran is fully/sufficiently detailed. If you have a problem with that, then go ahead. You couldnt even answer my questions and/or you would have looked bad when answering them. I just found out you're a Hindu. If you want to burn incense, then go ahead, but do not say that it is ordained in the Quran.
If you want to pick a fight, then I am not interested.It seems as if you like attacking people who have different views than you. You've attacked free-minds right
HERE (link)Anyways, I'm not looking for a fight.
Peace and
Bye -
It is not my problem if you call God's words incomplete. I firmly believe and trust God when he tells me that no one can abrogate his words and that his words are completed in the Quran and when he says that the Quran is fully/sufficiently detailed. If you have a problem with that, then go ahead. You couldnt even answer my questions and/or you would have looked bad when answering them. I just found out you're a Hindu. If you want to burn incense, then go ahead, but do not say that it is ordained in the Quran.
If you want to pick a fight, then I am not interested.It seems as if you like attacking people who have different views than you. You've attacked free-minds right
HERE (link)Anyways, I'm not looking for a fight.
Peace and
ByePeace progressive1993,
You are again and again proving that you got good talent in hypocrisy. You are so childish and immature and naive while responding to my posts. It shows how you hypocritically reject the truths that I have brought out on this forum and somewhere else.
When God says no one can abrogate his words it means no one has authority to change/abroagate his words. It does not mean no one can remove his words from a witten form of his scripture. You are pitiably unable to understand the true meaning of the Quranic verses. The original Quran like all other scriptures has been fully preserved in the mother book in the heaven.
Also, completion of God's words in the Quran means completion of God's revelations through Muhammad as the Quran.
Likewise, when God says the Quran is fully detailed it means all necessary details were given in the original Quran and it does not mean or guarantee that some or many of the revealed words will or can not be removed by humans from the written form of the Quran.
If you are unable to grasp the real meanings and still choose to be ignorant and arrogant, I can only pity on you.
Yes, I'm a Hindu. I don't think you are a Muslim but a Munafiq. Don't play ego game with me like you are a Hindu, I'm a Muslim and so on. I only wanted to portray how hypocritical some of the moderators of this forum were in their approach towards my post which is why I posted an article on 19.org. I think all of free mind people are aware of it and even the moderators of this forum!!!
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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I can only see one ignorant person here YOU
I dont need you to tell me that I am "a hypocrite" or "misguided" - I have had enough people praise me. Find another 16 year-old that understands as much about the Quran and his religion as I do.7431 "...None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He... (God)"
I dont wish to have another discussion with you. Why are you continuing?
Why are you scared to answer my questions?
Why are you frightened or embarrased when I share a link where you openly insult free-minds and it's users? I've seen enough comments about you and from you - they all prove what your character/personality is.I hope this discussion is over.
Peace be upon you, I do not seek the ignorant.
4911 O you who acknowledge, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than them. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than them. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining acknowledgement. Anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
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Vivek,
what do you say to the folloing verses?
7748 When they are told, "Bow down," they do not bow down.
2125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who bow and prostrate."
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Whats interesting about this discussion is that the 5 prayers of the Zoroastrain was used by some to discredit the 5 salat theory and now it is being used to give credibility to the 5 salat theory rotfl
In time people will realize these things are rituals and are a means to an end and not an end by themselves which is why the Quran does not dwell on rituals since its all rituals
To loose wight you should excercise, whether you jog or walk or play tennis is not whats important. Whats important is you exercise. You don't always ask how do I excercise, you just know you are supposed to burn calories. So why should you ask how to pray? No Christian asks these questions.
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Peace Bigmo,
Whats interesting about this discussion is that the 5 prayers of the Zoroastrain was used by some to discredit the 5 salat theory and now it is being used to give credibility to the 5 salat theory rotfl
Worship five times a day is a common God-given commandment in revealed religions. This truth is substantiated with the fact that Zoroastrians and Hindus like Muslims are required to perform Yajna/Yasna/Salat five times a day.
In time people will realize these things are rituals and are a means to an end and not an end by themselves which is why the Quran does not dwell on rituals since its all rituals
The obligatory worship five times a day is a ritual worship and this ritual was taught by God but not a man-made ritual as you mistakenly believe. The original Quran which was complete contained full details on Salat. But the present INCOMPLETE Quran does not contain such details.
To loose wight you should excercise, whether you jog or walk or play tennis is not whats important. Whats important is you exercise. You don't always ask how do I excercise, you just know you are supposed to burn calories. So why should you ask how to pray? No Christian asks these questions.
Any one can cite such kind of examples to run away from any duty. There are a number of duties commanded by God and Salat is one of the prime duties. We cannot substitute one duty with another. Each duty has its own merit. Christianity is NOT a revealed religion but a man-made pagan religion and has rejected God's Law(Torah and other God given laws) and salvation through deeds and has had its own man-made creed. No guided and learned person will consider christianity as a revealed religion and quote the christian doctrines for discussion on religious truths.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Bigmo,
The obligatory worship five times a day is a ritual worship and this ritual was taught by God but not a man-made ritual as you mistakenly believe. The original Quran which was complete contained full details on Salat. But the present INCOMPLETE Quran does not contain such details.
??? How is the quran incomplete? confused
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??? How is the quran incomplete? confused
He's no different than Sunni or Shiite mushriks - in his declaring the Quran to be 'incomplete' and in his arguemention no evidence, aggressiveness and only hot air - or on free-minds black writing and nothing behind it.
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He's no different than Sunni or Shiite mushriks - in his declaring the Quran to be 'incomplete' and in his arguemention no evidence, aggressiveness and only hot air - or on free-minds black writing and nothing behind it.
What is hot air confuseddoes it smell bad hmm
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Peace Munzir Ali,
??? How is the quran incomplete? confused
If you are ready to discuss matters in a dignified manner, then I shall respond to you. But if you behave like a child and just ridicule my views and understanding out of your sheer arrogance and gross ignorance like you and Afridi did in the past on this thread, I shall just ignore you in a noble way. I think dignity is a must in human behaviour.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Munzir Ali,
If you are ready to discuss matters in a dignified manner, then I shall respond to you. But if you behave like a child and just ridicule my views and understanding out of your sheer arrogance and gross ignorance like you and Afridi did in the past on this thread, I shall just ignore you in a noble way. I think dignity is a must in human behaviour.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
I didn't want to offend you! btw I am a child..I'm thirteen! ;D
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Peace Munzir Ali,
If you are ready to discuss matters in a dignified manner, then I shall respond to you. But if you behave like a child and just ridicule my views and understanding out of your sheer arrogance and gross ignorance like you and Afridi did in the past on this thread, I shall just ignore you in a noble way. I think dignity is a must in human behaviour.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
First of all I never said the 5 salat was "man made". I said many times it could be the Sunna of the prophets as even the Jewish traditions believes the total salat is 5. However the Torah "seems to indicate" its 3 and so does the Quran although it specifically mentions only ywo. i have said before that the Quran never said it has to be two or three as it did in many other issues of the Quran where the Quran not only says do so and so but also DO NOT do so and so and repeats it in more than one occassion. We have to be precise about how the Quran talks about issues and appreciates its subtleness.
However most of what you say is speculation. Its built on an assumption that there has to be a way for prayer and it has to be ritualistic and protocolish. Where did you get that notion from. Thats a notion I had before due to my upbringing and sectarian influences.
You also do not accept the previous scriptures as authoritative. I have always seen those who don't accept the previous scriptures as an authority as being somewhat handicapped because in doing so they limit the amount of data to work with. Data that I see in many situation very useful in having a deeper understanding maybe not about faith but about issues. Salat being one such issue. I have not seen any Christian ask questions like how to pray and when and so on at least not the way a Muslim would. Its always the first question Muslims ask.
How do you pray then? How do you know how many prostration? How do you pay Zakat? How do you perform haj?
But nobody asks why there should be a "way" especially when all these things have been mentioned in the previous scriptures without it ever being explained ritualistically. The Quran also talks about these issues and always speaks in the same language as the previous scriptures.
So why this assumption that there is a "way" to pray and perform haj and a specific amount to pay zakat. Its an assumption without any Quranic evidence for it. These constant question by many Muslims of these issues has made many Quranist insecure about this subject. I can not tell you how many times I have seen a Quranist debate a Sunni and spend the entire debate running away from answering this question.
I like the way this person put its
There is no right or wrong way to pray. Whether you are praying to God or some graven idol in truth you are still praying. handshake
For those of us who are following the Quran, however it is impotant for us to be clear on what the Quran says on this.
So according to the Quran, we want to know if the following things are addressed in the Quran.
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How do we pray?
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What do we do when we pray?
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What do we say when we pray?
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When do we pray?
Traditionally in Islam there are 2 words used for this concept of praying. They are two Classical Arabic words;
Salat (Suh-lot) and Du'a (Do-aah).
Salat to the Muslim has prescribed sayings that are recited at particular moments in the prayer. It is an elaborate ritual that carries a lot of meaning and connections. It also has prescribed motions that are done in a certain order.
Du'a on the other hand only consists of raising your hands and offering up a particular prayer to God. The difference between Salat and Du'a to the Muslim is the difference between praying, or making prayer, and saying a prayer. Praying, or making Prayer, to the Muslim is merely a ritual that is more of an actual display of devotion, whereas du'a, or saying a prayer, to the Muslim is the equivalent of making a speech (whether prepared or improvised) to God with a goal in mind.
Despite what this means to the Muslim, from a purely language perspective, without religious doctrine, in Classical Arabic, the difference between the two is this
Salat Prayer in the sense of making one-on-one time with your god or gods whoever they may be.
Dua 'To call on, to call out to or to beckon.' It does not have to be connected to any god just as whoever you call on does not have to be a god in your eyes. However, du'a in its connection to prayer has come to be used in the sense of oratories or speeches that are directed to a god, and specifically God, in Islamic Arabic and modern Arabics.
The Arab Jews & Christians of old and today have always called their Prayer Salat despite the fact that Muslims would like to monopolize this Classical Arabic term.
Salat and Du'a can overlap. Every time we say a prayer (du'a) we are making prayer, or praying (Salat). And most times whenever we are making prayer or praying (salat) we are also calling out (du'a) to God, calling on God or beckoning God. You are entitled to just have a conversation with God, think on His glory or greatness or just try to feel the blessings or holiness that God may bestow on you. You don't have to be calling out to God whenever you make time to meditate on Him.
The Koran only mentions praying twice a day; in the morning and in the evening. These times are the only ones specifically mentioned when it comes to prayer and every other time where Salat is mentioned can be deduced to these 2 times. Morning prayer is done in the late part of the night that is directly before sunrise, morning twilight or at sunrise. Evening prayer is done at the onset of sunset, evening twilight or the very early part of the night that is directly after evening twilight.
"Asalatul-Wustaa" that is mentioned in the Koran (223 can be rendered as "The Middle Prayer", 'The Best Prayer." or even "The Moderate Prayer." Following the principles of 413 and 37, to be clarified 2238 has to be related to a more precise passage about this same subject. There is no noon prayer or afternoon prayer ever mentioned in the Quran.
Prayer times are specified in the Koran such as 'The prayer of dawn' in (245, and 'the evening prayer' in (245 and the book specifies these times as the edges of daylight, within the times of complete darkness and when the sun is touching (or rubbing) the horizon (11114, 177. The Koran does advise praising God and giving him glory in the middle of the day and what can be considered the afternoon. 'Fa-sub-haana allahee heena tumsoona (masaa'. . .wa heena tudh-hiroona (Dhuhr)' The verses in English read 'Give God the glory in the afternoon, at night (Masaa' according to Lisanul-'arab is any time opposite to morning) and in the morning (Sabah). Praise him at nightfall ('ashiyy) and at noon (dhuhr)' (3017-1. The question is if we should take a simple Subhaanallahi and an al-hamdulillahi and understand it as taking time out to go make prayer. When God tells us to glorify him when he blesses us in someway should we stop right then, drop everything, get on our knees and pray? Glorifying God is mentioned many times in the Quran and all of these instances aren't connected to prayer? It's a little extreme to think that just because God says to remember to glorify Him at noon or in the afternoon that we are supposed to drop everything and go make some personal time with God right then. Look at 6828-29 to get a more rational picture. If you want to go and make time to pray, I'm sure God will appreciate that and you will benefit from it. But it is not mandatory.
As for how to pray, this is summed up in a few passages. The Muslim reader should know that rak'at, which to the Muslim refers to a certain sequence of positions during Prayer, has different meaning in Classical Arabic. In Classical Arabic, it means any kneeling or bowing. Sujood to the Muslim refers to the prostrating that is done during the Muslim's prayer, but in Classical Arabic, the Arabic of Muhammad's day (God bless him) it refers to any prostration. However its primary meaning is any form of paying homage or respects (I'dham or ta'dheem) which can be seen by the following passages 556, 234, 2218, 258. So here's how to pray from the Quran
243 "Pray! Do what is best and bow or kneel along with others who do the same."
We have an example of prayer with Mary 343 " Mary! Obey the Lord. Worship Him and bow, or kneel down, before Him with those who do the same."
555 "Your real supporters are God, His messenger(s) and His loyalists. His loyalists keep to prayer, doing what best, as they bow, or kneel down."
2277 "God's loyalists! Kneel (Arka' oo), bow down in worship (Usjudoo), devote yourselves (U' budoo) to your Lord, and do good so you can have success".
4829 "Muhammad is God's messenger and God's message is commendable. Those who are on the side of the messenger and his message will have strength when it comes to those who show no loyalty to the messenger and his message. They show mercy to one another, and Muhammad, you will see them kneeling and bowing down in worship, asking for God's grace and approval. The signs of their worship show on their faces, and that is how they are referred to in Moses' teachings and in the teachings of Jesus . . ."
The Arabic word 'Qaa'im' in 339 does not dictate standing position during prayer. It implies the undertaking of any action, in addition to 'staying up late.' Even if understood to mean standing one can still stand and bow just as Muslims bow, stand up and then bow again or as others bow their heads while they stand in prayer. Zechariah (God bless him) may have been standing at that moment during his prayer but that does not mean that he was not bowing or kneeling the moment before, or that he wasn't bowing his head at that very moment. Since we weren't there the best conclusion that we can make is that he was in the action of praying. That is the most important aspect anyway.
The Qiblah is commonly referred to as the direction of prayer but it actually means focal point, and that makes sense as you see that most Muslims point to it. In Old Classical Arabic it is the convening point of gazes, moving objects, mental attention or the journeys of people or animals. The watering hole is a qiblah for thirsty animals and Mecca is a qiblah for Muslim pilgrims in their journey to the city. The direction that we face in prayer isn't even a matter of religious importance considering 2115. We also see in the Quran (10 87) that God told Moses (God bless him) to tell his people, while in Egypt, to make their houses qiblahs.
Obviously, they weren't making their houses directions to pray towards but their communal focal-points, i.e. their community centers. Prayer is nowhere mentioned, nor is there a connection to what is usually translated as the Holy Masjid. Al-Masjidul-Haramu should be understood in the Quran as Al-masaajidul-haramatu which really includes any respected or inviolable sanctuary (See 8922 for a classic example of the singular definite used as plural). You can pray in whatever direction you choose.
Last but not least, there is nothing wrong with praying together. There is nothing wrong with praying the traditional Muslim way either, but it is not the only way to pray and it is not a superior way to pray. Praying with someone can range from praying shoulder to shoulder, doing and saying exactly the same thing at the same time, to holding each others hands and bowing heads; dedicating that time to God. The only uniform things that the Koran gives when it comes to prayer are the following
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Pray to God, The Most High.
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Kneel and bow with worship in your heart before God, Most High.
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Pray in the morning, right before or during daybreak.
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Pray in the evening, during sundown, dusk or right afterwards. handshake
So that's it, plain and simple. So go connect with your lord, God!
He is greater!
http//quranists.org/prayer.html
There, taboo gone! We should make this article the Quranist national anthem rotfl
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Peace Munzir Ali,
If you are ready to discuss matters in a dignified manner, then I shall respond to you. But if you behave like a child and just ridicule my views and understanding out of your sheer arrogance and gross ignorance like you and Afridi did in the past on this thread, I shall just ignore you in a noble way. I think dignity is a must in human behaviour.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
I would love to discuss matters in a dignified manner with you..Please tell me why it is imcomplete! If you can't say the reason and state no quranic evidences i'm afraid you are the one who is ignorant ;D