What are the limits of your belief?

nadeem

Hi,

Quite some time ago, I was discussing whether or not the Quran encouraged beating your wife or cutting hands of thiefs. The issues seemed to rest upon dictionaries and grammars.
However, after some discussion, I felt that the very focus of the debate was wrong. I thought to myself "Would I beat my wife, even if the Quran said so?". No, I wouldn't.
But then why was I even bothering about the technicalities? Why am I betting the safety of a fellow human being on the competency of some ancient grammarians?

Have anyone of you had similar thoughts? What did you make of them?

Regards,

Nadeem

Rev_John

Hi,

Quite some time ago, I was discussing whether or not the Quran encouraged beating your wife or cutting hands of thiefs. The issues seemed to rest upon dictionaries and grammars.
However, after some discussion, I felt that the very focus of the debate was wrong. I thought to myself "Would I beat my wife, even if the Quran said so?". No, I wouldn't.
But then why was I even bothering about the technicalities? Why am I betting the safety of a fellow human being on the competency of some ancient grammarians?

Have anyone of you had similar thoughts? What did you make of them?

Regards,

Nadeem

My understanding is that all religions consider violence as bad. Therefore if any religion advocates violence then it is following the wrong path or has become corrupted in some way. Yes I know the old testament includes "stoning" etc. As does some other holy books. But that was for specific offences. As far as I know (I could be wrong) both Jesus and Muhammad preached peace and love. "love thy neighbour" and "Love thy enemy" both appear in the Bible..

nadeem

Hi Rev. John.

Thanks for the reply, but you missed my question.

What if all religions considered violence as good? Then where do you stand?

Also, when the religions themselves define what is violence (or just "though love/Gods will&quot, it doesn't matter whether they consider it bad or good. It will be the same either way.

Nadeem

Rev_John

Hi Rev. John.

Thanks for the reply, but you missed my question.

What if all religions considered violence as good? Then where do you stand?

Also, when the religions themselves define what is violence (or just "though love/Gods will&quot, it doesn't matter whether they consider it bad or good. It will be the same either way.

Nadeem

I understand what you are saying. It all depends on what you are brought up to believe. If, like some religions, tribes, etc. you are brought up to believe that mutilating a womans body with circumcision, or eating your slain enemy is normal, then that is what you will do (unless you are on the receiving end, of course). But if you are brought up to believe violence is bad, that will be normal to you instead.

As I was brought up to believe violence is bad, I would leave that religion. But if I was brought up to believe violence is good - who knows!

nadeem

As I was brought up to believe violence is bad, I would leave that religion. But if I was brought up to believe violence is good - who knows!

But have you ever come to question the very source that told you what violence is in the first place?

Rev_John

But have you ever come to question the very source that told you what violence is in the first place?

Not really. I just think it is wrong to cause anyone pain or discomfort. It just seems like a fundamental, deep down belief for me. Maybe in self defence, but that is all.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Hi,

Quite some time ago, I was discussing whether or not the Quran encouraged beating your wife or cutting hands of thiefs. The issues seemed to rest upon dictionaries and grammars.
However, after some discussion, I felt that the very focus of the debate was wrong. I thought to myself "Would I beat my wife, even if the Quran said so?". No, I wouldn't.
But then why was I even bothering about the technicalities? Why am I betting the safety of a fellow human being on the competency of some ancient grammarians?

Have anyone of you had similar thoughts? What did you make of them?

Regards,

Nadeem

Same here, I wouldnt beat my girlfriend/wife even it is a possibble option laid down in the Quran.
Luckily, aggression is forbidden by God in the Quran - he is the Most Wise. Beating the wife is IMO not in the Quran either. Furthermore, war/fighting is only to be done in self-defense/against oppression/persecution.

Alen

Hi,
Quite some time ago, I was discussing whether or not the Quran encouraged beating your wife or cutting hands of thiefs. The issues seemed to rest upon dictionaries and grammars.
However, after some discussion, I felt that the very focus of the debate was wrong. I thought to myself "Would I beat my wife, even if the Quran said so?". No, I wouldn't.
But then why was I even bothering about the technicalities? Why am I betting the safety of a fellow human being on the competency of some ancient grammarians?
Have anyone of you had similar thoughts? What did you make of them?
Regards,
Nadeem

Peace,
Respectfully.

I always ask myself if this and this makes sense,does it sound Logical?
I read The Quran over and over again to find an answer, pray to God to increase my Knolwedge.
You also have to be patient and research.

Peace.

Wakas

peace brother Nadeem,

First, nice to see you post again.

It would appear that certain views or interpretations rely on grammar/dictionaries etc but quite often, it is the internal logic/consistancy of AQ that is the deciding factor.

What if all religions considered violence as good? Then where do you stand?

It is put forward by AQ itself that it has been built in such a way that it will resonate with who we are and what we experience . Thus, if you come across something that does not look right, does not sound right, does not feel right, then maybe it isn't right, even if everyone thinks it is. As long as one's intentions are sincere (i.e. they sincerely wish to do the right thing, sincerely seek the truth etc) then there is no blame, as far as I'm aware, if one does not follow what they disagree with. The minimum criteria, the benchmark is monotheism, anything else is a bonus, in my opinion.

But then why was I even bothering about the technicalities?

Could be a few reasons. For me, it is usually because I want to know what it truly says, whatever the outcome.

nadeem

Dear all,

@ Rev. John

Not really. I just think it is wrong to cause anyone pain or discomfort. It just seems like a fundamental, deep down belief for me. Maybe in self defence, but that is all.

That seems reasonable, and at the same time it is a consensus between nearly everyone on earth.
A very rare combination! So many people who believe in non-violence, yet so much violence!
Something is up.

@progressive1993

Same here, I wouldnt beat my girlfriend/wife even it is a possibble option laid down in the Quran.

But you believe the Quran to be from God, so how do you justify your disobedience?

Luckily, aggression is forbidden by God in the Quran - he is the Most Wise.

Aggression too, as is violence, a very fluid concept. What is aggression in one country, is law in another. If god is the most wise, then what room is there for our intelligence?
Don't misunderstand. The question is neither about wisdom, nor about god. Its about borrowing his authority by playing the "he is most wise"-card.
"God said this, and he is smarter than you, so why don't you shut your pie hole and start driving some planes into buildings?" Just to demonstrate my point.

@Allen

I read The Quran over and over again to find an answer, pray to God to increase my Knolwedge.

How many times do you read it before you stop, and then what happens?
Do you read until you can find something that justifies a notion you already had, or do you come to accept that "This is what is says, and I'm gonna do it because I believe in god" ?

@ Wakas

First, nice to see you post again.

Yes. I've missed it much since I enjoyed it. I've changed quite a bit since last time, and there is a chance I've become too different for FM. But I'll let the sunrise shed some light on that.

It would appear that certain views or interpretations rely on grammar/dictionaries etc but quite often, it is the internal logic/consistancy of AQ that is the deciding factor

There is no internal logic without the words that express it, and there are no words without the dictionaries that give them meaning. Ultimately, the Quran too has to rely on some external factor. Don't you think?

It is put forward by AQ itself that it has been built in such a way that it will resonate with who we are and what we experience . Thus, if you come across something that does not look right, does not sound right, does not feel right, then maybe it isn't right, even if everyone thinks it is. As long as one's intentions are sincere (i.e. they sincerely wish to do the right thing, sincerely seek the truth etc) then there is no blame, as far as I'm aware, if one does not follow what they disagree with. The minimum criteria, the benchmark is monotheism, anything else is a bonus, in my opinion.

I did not find in the verses any support for your interpretation, but it does not matter. Your statement is correct anyways. People project their own qualities, sentiments, thoughts, feelings and expextations on every object they see. The Quran is not immune. Hence, someone read the Quran and blew himself up, while someone else read it too but instead spoke kindly to his enemies.

Intent may give solace, but no solution. It is said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Wakas, we both know many people who have harmed others in total sincerity. Are they not to blame? I don't really care too much about blame, really, but is sincerity such a moral panacea?

Could be a few reasons. For me, it is usually because I want to know what it truly says, whatever the outcome.

Are you indifferent to the outcome?

I would not object to the focus if the debate was restricted to linguistic curiosity, but the issue is more often than not confused with real life.
Last time I checked, most of us here believe the Quran to be the literal word of god, beyond doubt.
In this context, you are forced to chose semantics over sensitivity, and linguistics over love.

Regards,

Nadeem

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace

@progressive1993

But you believe the Quran to be from God, so how do you justify your disobedience?

Aggression too, as is violence, a very fluid concept. What is aggression in one country, is law in another. If god is the most wise, then what room is there for our intelligence?
Don't misunderstand. The question is neither about wisdom, nor about god. Its about borrowing his authority by playing the "he is most wise"-card.
"God said this, and he is smarter than you, so why don't you shut your pie hole and start driving some planes into buildings?" Just to demonstrate my point.

Well IF it would be laid down as a POSSIBILITY then I wouldnt. However, my point was that it does not say that, because God is Most Wise and doesnt command us to do such evil things, on the contrary, we are commanded to do benevolent/righteus deeds.

Besides, where does it say that we should beat our wives?
Your example is about ignorant terrorists and blind followers, which are both condememned in the Quran. But you are right.

Do you personally think that God said that we should beat our wives?

nadeem

Dear Progressive1993,

On one hand, you seem prepared to disobey the Quran, while on the other you maintain its divinity. Does that mean that you are prepared to disobey god should he command you to do something you find objectionable?

I must stress that this topic is not about the divinity of the Quran, nor its content. For a long time I have been peering into my own abyss and tried to see my beliefs for what they are. In this thread I simply wish to learn from others who have done the same.

Do you personally think that God said that we should beat our wives?

He may have, he might not have. The question is Does it matter?
Try to reflect on this question, try to see what I'm getting at. It is not a question about god. It has nothing to do with god, but it has everything to do with you.

Nadeem

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace

Dear Progressive1993,

On one hand, you seem prepared to disobey the Quran, while on the other you maintain its divinity. Does that mean that you are prepared to disobey god should he command you to do something you find objectionable?

I must stress that this topic is not about the divinity of the Quran, nor its content. For a long time I have been peering into my own abyss and tried to see my beliefs for what they are. In this thread I simply wish to learn from others who have done the same.

He may have, he might not have. The question is Does it matter?
Try to reflect on this question, try to see what I'm getting at. It is not a question about god. It has nothing to do with god, but it has everything to do with you.

Nadeem

I see what you mean. I think we shouldnt beat our wives, chop hands off of criminals if we think that it is bad.
However, the thing I wanted to point out that there is no chopping off hands of criminals and no wife-beating ordained in the Quran so the question is irrelevant in PRACTICE. In THEORY I don't think I would do things that I think are wrong.

However, doing evil acts is not ordained in the Quran.

I have been thinking about the same thing as you about the punishment for adultery - flogging. I personally find 100 lashes to be a lot and that the whole flogging in public thing is a bit barbaric/not modern.

Also, some people said the punishment for rape is execution (?). Is that true? If so, then I also think that it is not the right thing to do.

nadeem

Peace,

However, the thing I wanted to point out that there is no chopping off hands of criminals and no wife-beating ordained in the Quran so the question is irrelevant in PRACTICE.

I said in my previous that I must stress that this topic is not about the divinity of the Quran, nor its content.

It is possible for two people to witness the same event, and come to logically sound and mutually exclusive conclusions that are equally correct.
Impossible? Check out Relativity http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wteiuxyqtoM

Hence, I can read the Quran and see a divorce where someone else sees a stick, and we can both be equally right.
That is why I point out the unimportance of the content in this context. What is important is to know that you see what are you are seeing, because it is you who are seeing.
A banana is not yellow, it is yellow in your eyes. Turn on some UV light, and it becomes blue.
Likewise, the Quran seems non-violent to you, but it may seem violent to others. And the mystery, the paradox, the beauty and the very genius of this existence is that you may both be right.

And I must ask, perhaps somewhat offtopic What does it mean when you say that god is most wise? What does god need wisdom for? He already knows the answers. Wisdom, I thought was a tool for us fools, as a cane is for the blind. We need to figure things out, and we can chose to go about it with wisdom or with ignorance. But god doesn't need to figure anything out. What does it matter if he is wise or ignorant? Again, this question has nothing to do with god. It is about you. Do you understand? Remember what I said earlier Humans tend to project their own qualities onto objects.

Nadeem

Wakas

peace Nadeem,

I've changed quite a bit since last time, and there is a chance I've become too different for FM. But I'll let the sunrise shed some light on that.

Life is constant flux bro.

When a man is living, he is soft and pliable, when he is dead he becomes rigid. Pliability is life, rigidity is death, whether one speaks of man's body, mind or spirit. ~Bruce Lee

There is no internal logic without the words that express it, and there are no words without the dictionaries that give them meaning. Ultimately, the Quran too has to rely on some external factor. Don't you think?

Of course The Quran relies on externals to a certain extent, like every book in the world. My main point was that it is more than just language and grammar determining its meaning.

I did not find in the verses any support for your interpretation, but it does not matter. Your statement is correct anyways. People project their own qualities, sentiments, thoughts, feelings and expextations on every object they see. The Quran is not immune. Hence, someone read the Quran and blew himself up, while someone else read it too but instead spoke kindly to his enemies.

I am surprised you found no evidence for my interpretation. 4153 is pretty clear to me for example. Simply put, if AQ did not resonate with who we are and what we experience, it wouldn't make much sense.

Intent may give solace, but no solution. It is said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Wakas, we both know many people who have harmed others in total sincerity. Are they not to blame? I don't really care too much about blame, really, but is sincerity such a moral panacea?

I am familiar with that saying, and I have quoted it on occassion.
Humans are imperfect, thus are almost inevitibly going to make mistakes, so whilst we may not be able to control the unforseen, we can control our intentions/sincerity.

Are you indifferent to the outcome?

Good question. I try to be, but it is very difficult. The greatest battle is the battle within. I am an imperfect human, thus I will have my own bias, upbringing, finite information, limited logic etc. I aim to be sincere in seeking the truth, and when one is trying to be sincere in this, they must try not to be 'for' or 'against' a particular outcome. Whether I acheive it or not, well, only God knows.

I would not object to the focus if the debate was restricted to linguistic curiosity, but the issue is more often than not confused with real life.
Last time I checked, most of us here believe the Quran to be the literal word of god, beyond doubt.
In this context, you are forced to chose semantics over sensitivity, and linguistics over love.

Are you alluding to 'confirmation bias'?

Personally, I think AQ is the Word of God, that is my working hypothesis, and I am in an ongoing verification process.

All knowledge if self-knowledge.

Wakas

I watched that video, and I understood it to mean that in each person's own frame of reference each is correct, which I agree with. However, if they were to compare and weigh the evidence, there is only one truth, and that is it was a simultaneous double lightning strike. This would be worked out if the train passenger took into account the speed of the train heading towards the front strike, and away from the back strike, resulting in seeing the front strike first.

Or at least, that is my understanding.

procrastinator

I watched that video, and I understood it to mean that in each person's own frame of reference each is correct, which I agree with. However, if they were to compare and weigh the evidence, there is only one truth, and that is it was a simultaneous double lightning strike. This would be worked out if the train passenger took into account the speed of the train heading towards the front strike, and away from the back strike, resulting in seeing the front strike first.

Or at least, that is my understanding.

but how do you know that both lighting bolts struck simultaneously, it depends on context...
it would only be a simultaneous double lightning strike if a person was standing equidistant to both lightning strikes. lets say the man was standing an foot to the other side he would then notice that the lightning bolts were in quick succession to each other, and the lady in the train would also come to this same conclusion, if they compared and weighed the evidence they would agree that one lightning bolt came first and then followed by another. (where they would disagree is the timing between the lightning bolts)

i agree with you though wakas...
this and the quran are two different things, the video is based on visual perception and what your eyes see, so depending on context two people can be correct. the quran however is not based on visual perseption, and depending upon context only one conclusion can truly be made. a persons interpretation of the quran is also dependent on his intentions. If a person reads the quran with bias to his own beleifs and schema then he will only find what he wants to find for example a friend of mine justified eating pork and smoking drugs ( wow) saying "things arent haram but it is the way how you do it makes it haram" and qouting verses that were clearly out of context, or a better example are the suicide bombers murdering innocent people. hence the reason why the quran states that ones intentions must be pure when reading the quran.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace

I said in my previous that I must stress that this topic is not about the divinity of the Quran, nor its content.

Then, like I have already said I wouldn't do things that I think are wrong.

It is possible for two people to witness the same event, and come to logically sound and mutually exclusive conclusions that are equally correct.
Impossible? Check out Relativity http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wteiuxyqtoM

Hence, I can read the Quran and see a divorce where someone else sees a stick, and we can both be equally right.
That is why I point out the unimportance of the content in this context. What is important is to know that you see what are you are seeing, because it is you who are seeing.
A banana is not yellow, it is yellow in your eyes. Turn on some UV light, and it becomes blue.
Likewise, the Quran seems non-violent to you, but it may seem violent to others. And the mystery, the paradox, the beauty and the very genius of this existence is that you may both be right.

Correct, that's why the Quran states

37 He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning...

And I must ask, perhaps somewhat offtopic What does it mean when you say that god is most wise? What does god need wisdom for? He already knows the answers. Wisdom, I thought was a tool for us fools, as a cane is for the blind. We need to figure things out, and we can chose to go about it with wisdom or with ignorance. But god doesn't need to figure anything out. What does it matter if he is wise or ignorant? Again, this question has nothing to do with god. It is about you. Do you understand? Remember what I said earlier Humans tend to project their own qualities onto objects.

Interesting point. God states that he is the "Most Wise" in the Quran. Furthermore, what I was trying to bring across was that God would never ordain anything evil/bad.

That's why God says

728 When they commit evil acts, they say, "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say, "God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

So this is what I was getting at. I also said that I wouldnt do things that I personally find bad. If it were an option for us to beat our wives, I wouldnt. But then again, God is Most Wise and didnt ordain such a thing. (sorry to get into that again laugh)

procrastinator

crap i meant to modify my earlier comment because of spelling mistakes and i accidently posted a new comment P sorry

SarahY

I didn?t read the whole posts but I wanted to share this..

Nadeem you gave an example of beating wife, and maybe from that it made you think ?I?m trying to justify that Quran doesn?t uphold this, but the view is there so maybe that?s another (logical) meaning?? maybe, maybe not? But something along those lines.

Clearly Quran is against injustice but like you said you?re not going on about the content or divinity. For sure I can read a passage and take one meaning and another person can take another. I think that can make conforming feel unstable or that there is no well unity? But the fact is I can?t create a meaning without reasoning.

The banana is yellow in my eyes, because of how light and colour system works it gives off that visual output to me but also as you said the banana is not yellow it is blue under UV light. but that concept all together is confusing because the colour of pure uv light is different to white light. Someone with visual (colour) impairment may say the banana is another color! It?s all about the reasoning why they view the banana that way. You gave meaning why the banana is blue. You can?t just say banana is blue without meaning. Same goes with everything else.

You mention ultimately the Quran needs to rely on something else. I think rather it is us who has to rely on something else. My Arabic ain?t so good so when I read I refer back to dictionaries or translation because I could say one word means something just out of nothing out of my head, only because I wanted to. But that meaning is flawed without justification.

I remember reading Wakas views on salat as reading the Quran and he justifies it his way whereas Truthseeker11 believes the act to be reading as well as physical involvement and he justifies it his way (there might be more to it than that... just trying to show an example). You can only give meaning by justifying it. Maybe they?re both right? Maybe one is more right than the other. But isn?t it why God tells us to think and reason and search and find out and conclude? I mean maybe we never conclude because we?re always learning. But we get judged according to our actions right? And this judgment is based on our deeds which reflect our learning.

When you read a book and there is a word in there you don?t understand, if you?re bothered you?ll look it up in the dictionary to understand the word. so when you read the sentence again you can understand what the meaning is in that context. The dictionary is to aide our knowledge, not that the Quran is incomplete and needing dictionaries to make the meaning.

just my opinion, salam )