Monotheists
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Jewish Talmud = oral laws right? I.e. no different than the hadiths. Why use it as a source of events when even the Old Testament's records are considered sketchy at best?
Again, please provide proof of an early realization of the existence of God by Abraham at an early age. Also, that would mean that he was an agnostic, an atheist, or a idol worshipper before he came to the realization.
Are you serious?! The Qur'aan claims to confirm the Torah, period; this is the oral and the written. There are plenty of passages in the Qur'aan that refer to teachings in the Mischna and oral Torah, being confirmed in the reading, that appear NOWHERE in the Hebrew Bible (written Torah). The Jewish Talmud is based on teachings from the Torah, and the oral Torah was divinely revealed also, not just the Tanakh. You obviously need to do more research on this... Abraham's worship is characterized by the Qur'aanic description of him; he never performed any acts of worship to false gods. He was simply confused as a small child, which does not constitute idolatry. If it did, it would be a contradiction in the Qur'aan to say that Abraham was "NEVER" an idol worshipper or polytheist, which is says several times...
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Peace Aynur,
You would think that if it meant only those specific groups, it would say that. What I read when I'm reading is anyone who is monotheist. It doesn't say what you say it says. Even Muhammad Asad's footnote doesn't say what you're saying.
If it's just generally referring to ANYONE who's a monotheist, then what is the point of it specifically mentioning the Jews, Nazarenes, and Islaamic converts? And if salvation was guaranteed to everyone who believes in the traditional concept of monotheism (completely general audience), then what was the point of God sending down the Torah or the Qur'aan at all? All you have to do is be a monotheist and it's sufficient enough, right? So, why do the scriptures (i.e. Torah and Qur'aan) detail specific laws for the people? Why not just one page that says, 'Worship God, believe in the last day, and lead a good life'? According to you, the rest of the book is completely unnecessary, right?
Peace,
Ahmad
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For the answer to this question, you have to examine the actual story of Abraham; it's detailed in the Jewish Talmud... According to the story, Abraham was not born with the knowledge of God; but he used reason and logic to discover Him. Abraham's father was an idol-maker and a priest in a pagan temple, but Abraham rejected his father's work and beliefs, realizing that it was absurd for a 50 year old man to worship a stone "god" that was only a few days old... And yes, he became aware of God at a very early age, during his childhood...
He used this argument against himself... This, however, doesn't make him an idolator. When Abraham discovered the Supreme God, he was still a small child. Here's what the passage says, according to the Talmud
Then he (Abraham) arose and walked about, and he left the cave, and went along the edge of the valley. When the sun sank, and the stars came forth, he said, "These are the gods!" But the dawn came, and the stars could be seen no longer, and then he said, "I will not pay worship to these, for they are no gods." Thereupon the sun came forth, and he spoke, "This is my god, him will I extol." But again the sun set, and he said, "He is no god," and beholding the moon, he called her his god to whom he would pay Divine homage. Then the moon was obscured, and he cried out "This, too, is no god! There is One who sets them all in motion."
Abraham never performed an act of worship to any of these things. He wasn't taught the rites of his worship, which include "salaat", until AFTER this incident; his practical worship was always directed to God alone... What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Abraham was an idol worshipper?
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Peace Rashidala,
First of all, I'm not a "free-minder". LOL... Secondly, you have to read the context of the passage in which you're examining. It specifically says, "those who are Jews, and the Nasara, and the converts (i.e. "saabioon", any who believe..." The context is clear enough. It's talking about ANYONE AMONG THESE GROUPS
Can you please explain to me how you have interpretated the arabic word nasara to be Jews and sabieena to be converts?? A wrong interpretation leads to a wrong conclusion. You have stated it specifically states this yet there are more than one interpretation of this verse so please explain how you have come to a logical conclusion of those two words being specific groups and your interpretation being the right one.
In my opinion they are generic groups and this verse supports that the reward with The Lord is beyond which group you belong to as no good deed is wasted; even an atoms worth.
PEACE
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Peace Prince,
Can you please explain to me how you have interpretated the arabic word nasara to be Jews and sabieena to be converts?? A wrong interpretation leads to a wrong conclusion. You have stated it specifically states this yet there are more than one interpretation of this verse so please explain how you have come to a logical conclusion of those two words being specific groups and your interpretation being the right one.
Sure. The word "nasara" is literally translated as "nazarene", which is the group of Jews who followed Jesus during his ministry. These can be interpreted as referring to the actual group of Nazarenes, or it can be referring to the Ebionites, a similar group of disciples who regarded Jesus as a prophet and who were Torah-observant Jews... Although some people have interpreted the word "nasara" as referring to Christians, this is incorrect, and the word for "christian" is never mentioned in the Qur'aan at all, and only time they are directly mentioned is when the scripture refers to them as pagans (or "polytheists" in reference to their Trinitarian beliefs... The word "saabii" implies someone changing their belief system, and the word "saabioon" literally means a person who changes his or her religion to another's, or a "convert". So, in this sense, depending on the context of the passage, it could be referring to a Jewish convert, a Nazarene convert, or an Islaamic convert who chose to follow Muhammad...
In my opinion they are generic groups and this verse supports that the reward with The Lord is beyond which group you belong to as no good deed is wasted; even an atoms worth.
This is extremely unlikely, especially considering the fact that the word "saabioon" means converts. It's not talking about someone converting to a random, generic group, since this would defeat the purpose of mentioning Jews and Nazarenes. Instead of implying any random group, it specifically mentions the Abrahamic systems (i.e. Judaism, Nazarenism, Islaam) and no others. Why do you think this is?
Peace,
Ahmad
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I must reiterate here.. Abraham was not a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim (as we see Islam today).
He believed in monotheism, did righteous deeds and I would think believed in a judgment. So.. one could be like his example and be saved without a holy book
Else, as Prince says, what would happen to the deeds of a righteous monotheist who was like Abraham in generality?
That would not make Allah the most just of judges if they just became nothing.
I am not a native arab speaker but I am one who went to college to polish my english as a native speaker to be that much better.. and I must say.. if the line is "Jews, Christians, and anyone who is a monotheist.." I would be inviting the first two and any other monotheist to such a meeting.
Qur'an says 'anyone' in this term.. So, question the translations of these Scholars or question the Qur'an. Your choice.
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I must reiterate here.. Abraham was not a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim (as we see Islam today).
He believed in monotheism, did righteous deeds and I would think believed in a judgment. So.. one could be like his example and be saved without a holy book
Else, as Prince says, what would happen to the deeds of a righteous monotheist who was like Abraham in generality?
That would not make Allah the most just of judges if they just became nothing.
I am not a native arab speaker but I am one who went to college to polish my english as a native speaker to be that much better.. and I must say.. if the line is "Jews, Christians, and anyone who is a monotheist.." I would be inviting the first two and any other monotheist to such a meeting.
Qur'an says 'anyone' in this term.. So, question the translations of these Scholars or question the Qur'an. Your choice.
So whoever does righteous good deeds while he is a believer (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), his efforts will not be rejected. Verily! We record it in his Book of deeds. S. 2194 Al-Hilali & Khan
It is not for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide. S. 917 Al-Hilali & Khan
As in the case of those before you they were mightier than you in power, and more flourishing in wealth and children. They had their enjoyment of their portion and ye have of yours, as did those before you; and ye indulge in idle talk as they did. They! - their work are fruitless in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will lose (all spiritual good). S. 969 Yusuf Ali
And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever. S. 2217 Al-Hilali & Khan
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. S. 262 Al-Hilali & Khan
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Sure. The word "nasara" is literally translated as "nazarene", which is the group of Jews who followed Jesus during his ministry. These can be interpreted as referring to the actual group of Nazarenes, or it can be referring to the Ebionites, a similar group of disciples who regarded Jesus as a prophet and who were Torah-observant Jews... Although some people have interpreted the word "nasara" as referring to Christians, this is incorrect, and the word for "christian" is never mentioned in the Qur'aan at all, and only time they are directly mentioned is when the scripture refers to them as pagans (or "polytheists" in reference to their Trinitarian beliefs...
I agree with you on the "Nazarene" issue.
I agree with the way QRT translated it "followers of other religions".
Peace
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Peace Rashidala,
I must reiterate here.. Abraham was not a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim (as we see Islam today).
He believed in monotheism, did righteous deeds and I would think believed in a judgment. So.. one could be like his example and be saved without a holy book
Else, as Prince says, what would happen to the deeds of a righteous monotheist who was like Abraham in generality?
This is false. Abraham WAS a submitter, not simply a monotheist. You're completely missing the point of the scripture. It only refers to four (4) groups
- Those who believe
- The Jews
- The Nazarenes
- The Islaamic converts
Also, the scripture says that those who reject the religion of Abraham are actually 'fooling their own souls', meaning there is no salvation for them. Therefore, by direct implication, the believers, the Jews, the Nazarenes, and the converts are all upholding the religion of Abraham... So, what is this religion of Abraham, and what does it consist of? Here's what the Qur'aan says, very plainly
Say, "We believe in God, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters." If they believe as you do, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition. God will spare you their opposition. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. (2136, 137)
Based on this passage, the believers (and readers of the scripture) are spared the opposition of the rejectors; so these rejectors are actually in opposition to God Himself. If they believe as the subject (Muhammad) believed, then they're guided, in submission to God; if they don't believe as Muhammad believed, then they are in opposition to God. It's that simple... Now, Muhammad believed in more than just general monotheism, and this is evident by all the rules and statutes outlined in the Qur'aan. The Jews and Nazarenes, although not always acknowledging Muhammad as a prophet, believe in the same things, which is why the Torah is supported and confirmed by the Qur'aan... If you don't believe in the revelations and you refuse to follow them, then you are rejecting the religion of Abraham, and you are therefore in opposition to God...
Check out 4122.
As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, we will admit them into gardens with flowing streams, wherein they live forever. Such is the truthful promise of God. Whose utterances are more truthful than God's? (4122)
This pretty much says the same thing, but it includes more than just leading a righteous life; it involves them 'BELIEVING'. So, what does this believing constitute?
O you who believe, you shall believe in God and His messenger, and the scripture He has revealed through His messenger, and the scripture He has revealed before that. Anyone who refuses to believe in God, and His angels, and His scriptures, and His messengers, and the last day has indeed strayed far astray. (4136)
So, you're saying that all monotheists fit this criteria, just because they're monotheists? Absolutely not! Salvation is dependent on more than just believing in one god; it also involves believing in, and upholding, God's revelations and commandments.
As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the salaat, and upholders of zakaat; they are believers in God and the last day. We grant these a great recompense. (4162)
So, the Qur'aan describes the people who believe in God and believe in the last day, and according to this passage, it includes a lot more than general monotheism... Are you getting my point now?
Peace,
Ahmad
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I agree with the way QRT translated it "followers of other religions".
That's fine if you want to believe that definition... But the literal meaning of "saabii" refers to someone who CHANGES his or her religion, and "saabioon" is the plural word for people who've converted from one religion to another, in this case to the religion that Muhammad was teaching. Therefore, the "saabioon" weren't followers of other religions, they were followers of Muhammad, converts to Islaam...
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That's fine if you want to believe that definition... But the literal meaning of "saabii" refers to someone who CHANGES his or her religion, and "saabioon" is the plural word for people who've converted from one religion to another, in this case to the religion that Muhammad was teaching. Therefore, the "saabioon" weren't followers of other religions, they were followers of Muhammad, converts to Islaam...
I see your point, but a convert is still a Muslim. Islam is not like Judaism that half-accepts converts (in some sects, I think - correct me if I'm wrong), so to me, that definition doesnt make sense.
Study Quran PRL says
Sad-Ba-Hamza = to change one's religion, lead (a troop), rise (star), touch, wash. saabii (pl. saabiuun) - the word refers to certain religious sects that were found in parts of Arabia and countries bordering it.Since converts are Muslims anyways and there is no difference between a "born Muslim" and a convert. In fact, to become a Muslim you dont have to utter a few arabic words - it is a system/way of life. Either way, converts are still Muslims, so the definition "follower of another religion" makes perfect sense. Maybe it even means "apostate".
Peace
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It's described as the "suhoofu Ibraheem" (scrolls of Abraham). This is a basic enough description...
That really isn't an identifier. Why Injeel and not just "scrolls of isa"? Quran translates into "the reading/recital". What's the identifier for the scripture revealed to Abraham?
They're recorded in the Torah, both the written and the oral. They are
(1) Prohibition against idolatry
(2) Prohibition against murder
(3) Prohibition against theft
(4) Prohibition against sexual immorality
(5) Prohibition against blasphemy
(6) Prohibition against eating a limb from a living animal (interpreted to refer to eating blood, since the Torah states that the "life is in the blood"
(7) Requirement to set up a judicial system to govern the people/societyGod's laws change with time? I.E. why were additions made to the system of God as outlined in the Qur'an that weren't present in the so called "noahide laws"? Did God have to perfect the system for mankind over time? Or was there ONE system set in place since the beginning?
It's implied that Abraham was aware of these laws because he was a child of Noah.
Abraham's father was a child of Noah too.
The Qur'aan says that Abraham kept God's commandments; the only commandments that existed were the Noahide Laws...
So, Abraham didn't receive his very own scriptures, but was rather using those supposedly revealed to Noah...
By practical worship, I mean service turned into action (i.e. acts of worship)... There were "muslimoon" (submitters) before Abraham, but none of them performed the acts of worship required of us today, which were taught to Abraham...
Please describe out these acts of worship you are referring to in detail.
There is a difference between monotheism and submission/"islaam", which is evident from reading the scriptures. Just because groups have built their foundations on monotheism doesn't mean they were worshipping the One True God; it just means they were only worshipping one god, who literally could've been anyone.
Am I a monotheist if I worship this wrist watch I bought a few days ago? Providing it's the only thing I worship?
Although monotheism is a pillar of true Islaam, the two are not the same thing... And just because there are threads trying to decipher the Qur'aan doesn't mean it's not complete and fully detailed; that's an irrelevant idea...
And the revelations before the Qur'an were not fully detailed? Is that an error on God's part or did she just make it that way?
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Are you serious?! The Qur'aan claims to confirm the Torah, period; this is the oral and the written. There are plenty of passages in the Qur'aan that refer to teachings in the Mischna and oral Torah, being confirmed in the reading, that appear NOWHERE in the Hebrew Bible (written Torah). The Jewish Talmud is based on teachings from the Torah, and the oral Torah was divinely revealed also, not just the Tanakh.
God is giving two different sets of instructions to people in two different time periods because as one can see from just reading the two books there are contradictions between them regarding the laws. Circumcision, adultery stoning, apostate capital punishment to name a few. Please confirm.
You obviously need to do more research on this...
I actually don't know squat.
Abraham's worship is characterized by the Qur'aanic description of him; he never performed any acts of worship to false gods. He was simply confused as a small child, which does not constitute idolatry. If it did, it would be a contradiction in the Qur'aan to say that Abraham was "NEVER" an idol worshipper or polytheist, which is says several times...
At that point of confusion, he was either an agnostic or an atheist. Please confirm.
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I see your point, but a convert is still a Muslim. Islam is not like Judaism that half-accepts converts (in some sects, I think - correct me if I'm wrong), so to me, that definition doesnt make sense.
Study Quran PRL says
Sad-Ba-Hamza = to change one's religion, lead (a troop), rise (star), touch, wash. saabii (pl. saabiuun) - the word refers to certain religious sects that were found in parts of Arabia and countries bordering it.Since converts are Muslims anyways and there is no difference between a "born Muslim" and a convert. In fact, to become a Muslim you dont have to utter a few arabic words - it is a system/way of life. Either way, converts are still Muslims, so the definition "follower of another religion" makes perfect sense. Maybe it even means "apostate".
This is an interesting way of looking at it... The second definition you highlighted refers to them as a distinct group (i.e. The Sabians) in Arabia, who allegedly followed the teachings of the Psalms. According to the story, they all accepted Muhammad and converted to Islaam. It's not just speaking about any random group of people. So, this point is not a factor. However, I understand what you're saying on the rest, and you're right...
The problem comes in, though, when you consider the word "muslimoon"/submitters. This word is NOT mentioned in this passage at all, and it's probably because the Qur'aan identifies Nazarenes and Jews as submitters too, just like the followers of Muhammad. Also, since it directly mentions the Jews and Nazarenes, it might be talking about a convert of either group, whether the individual is converting to Judaism, Nazarenism, or Islaam. Or maybe it's differentiating between the people who were born into the religion (their parents were believers), those who were already following Muhammad, or those who hadn't converted but later would... Either way, I don't think it was generally referring to everybody in every random religion that considers the idea of monotheism. If this was the case, it would be unnecessary for it to mention ANY specific groups (i.e. Jews, Nasara, muminoon); it would've just been general about the entire thing. But, as we know, it wasn't... I guess you can interpret this either way...
It definately isn't referring to apostates, though. If the people were apostates from any of the systems that God described in this passage, then they DO have something to fear and reason to grieve, since they have marked themselves as "opposition" against God... Unless they repent...
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This is an interesting way of looking at it... The second definition you highlighted refers to them as a distinct group (i.e. The Sabians) in Arabia, who allegedly followed the teachings of the Psalms. According to the story, they all accepted Muhammad and converted to Islaam. It's not just speaking about any random group of people. So, this point is not a factor. However, I understand what you're saying on the rest, and you're right...
The problem comes in, though, when you consider the word "muslimoon"/submitters. This word is NOT mentioned in this passage at all, and it's probably because the Qur'aan identifies Nazarenes and Jews as submitters too, just like the followers of Muhammad. Also, since it directly mentions the Jews and Nazarenes, it might be talking about a convert of either group, whether the individual is converting to Judaism, Nazarenism, or Islaam. Or maybe it's differentiating between the people who were born into the religion (their parents were believers), those who were already following Muhammad, or those who hadn't converted but later would... Either way, I don't think it was generally referring to everybody in every random religion that considers the idea of monotheism. If this was the case, it would be unnecessary for it to mention ANY specific groups (i.e. Jews, Nasara, muminoon); it would've just been general about the entire thing. But, as we know, it wasn't... I guess you can interpret this either way...
Well, Nazerenes and Jews were/are large in numbers. Why not highlight them? Remember, in the same verse it says "anyone who..."
It definately isn't referring to apostates, though. If the people were apostates from any of the systems that God described in this passage, then they DO have something to fear and reason to grieve, since they have marked themselves as "opposition" against God... Unless they repent...
hmm
What if they're still Submitters to God alone/Monotheists?
I need to think about this.. however, I am definitely going for "followers of other belief systems".