Did the Messenger receive two kinds of Wahy?
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This alone refutes the claim of Muhamamd recieving revelations/wahi other than the Quran
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that along with God are other gods?" Say, "I do not bear witness!" Say, "He is only One god, and I am innocent of your setting up partners!"
The order of revelation is irrelevant, since there is not contradiction in the Quran.
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Peace Mutazila
In negating the argument of extra Quranic wahy the issue of order of revelation would not matter (unless it creates a major contradiction) if the possibility of finding the answer to the question raised is available in the Quran. Other than in certain situations none of us can prove which verse preceded which. It is your word against their word therefore it does not prove anything from the Hadith advocates side and the burden of proof is theirs.
This problem does not arise in this particular issue involving Chapter 3 and 8. Chapter 8 indicates a smaller group of believers whereas Chapter 3124 -126 indicates a larger organized battle. Even there is a reference to an earlier smaller group in 3123. Importantly and obviously the support of 1000 Malaika means a smaller battle and support of 3,000 or 5,000 means a larger battle and therefore a later battle than the previous.
Further Chapter 8 some verses indicate these were revealed at the initial battles. For instance the basic nature of the question on war booty in 81 and the basic answer to the question and indication of an initial command to fight which even some of the believers found reluctant to adhere to in 85.
In the same chapter an earlier battle is referred in 839 to 48 which is possibly connected to the initial verse in the same Chapter.
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Peace everyone,
This topic has already been discussed before on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9653.0
Of course the prophet received revelation/wahy other than the qur'aan but that was meant only for the prophet and was not relevant to our guidance, hence was not included in the qur'aan. It does not matter what extra qur'aanic wahy the prophet received. Whatever is relevant to our guidance is in the qur'aan. Hence there is no need to "negate" the extra qur'aanic wahy sent to the prophet.
This alone refutes the claim of Muhamamd recieving revelations/wahi other than the Quran
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that along with God are other gods?" Say, "I do not bear witness!" Say, "He is only One god, and I am innocent of your setting up partners!"
The above argument is an example of poor logic.
If I say "I have read this science book" it does not mean that I have not read any other book. If I say "I have attended this science class" it does not mean that I have not attended any other class.
Argument from fallacy if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion must be false.
Suppressed correlative an argument which tries to redefine a correlative (two mutually exclusive options) so that one alternative encompasses the other, thus making one alternative impossible
Faulty generalizationhttp//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
If the caliper is itself defective, then no matter how carefully one uses that caliper, the measurement will always be defective. The prudent approach in that case will be to repair the caliper rather than keep using the defective caliper very carefully. P
No further comments from me on this issue. All relevant points have already been discussed in the thread quoted above.
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Peace everyone,
This topic has already been discussed before on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9653.0
Of course the prophet received revelation/wahy other than the qur'aan but that was meant only for the prophet and was not relevant to our guidance, hence was not included in the qur'aan. It does not matter what extra qur'aanic wahy the prophet received. Whatever is relevant to our guidance is in the qur'aan. Hence there is no need to "negate" the extra qur'aanic wahy sent to the prophet.
The above argument is an example of poor logic.
If I say "I have read this science book" it does not mean that I have not read any other book. If I say "I have attended this science class" it does not mean that I have not attended any other class.
Argument from fallacy if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion must be false.
Suppressed correlative an argument which tries to redefine a correlative (two mutually exclusive options) so that one alternative encompasses the other, thus making one alternative impossible
Faulty generalizationhttp//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
If the caliper is itself defective, then no matter how carefully one uses that caliper, the measurement will always be defective. The prudent approach in that case will be to repair the caliper rather than keep using the defective caliper very carefully.
No further comments from me on this issue. All relevant points have already been discussed in the thread quoted above.
I you think that it is not proven by 619, fair enough. If Hadith or Sunna was also wahi, it would have been surely mentioned there. Many people agree with this fact. Check end notes of RK and Edip Yuksel, also many youtube videos use the same arguement.
I understand your point/example, however, is there any evidence that the Prophet got other wahi?
Is there any other evidence that he only recieved the Quran?I've understood your point, no need to list a bunch of logical fallacies, but do you have proof that he recieved other wahi? Are you using the following verse to back your point?
3338 There is no blame on the prophet in doing anything that God has decreed upon him. Such was God's sunna with the people of old. God's command is a determined duty.
Peace
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Peace
The previous discussions on this subject ( links above) were mostly inconclusive and lacked detailed discussions on most verses in question.
But I must add that some verses cited does not indicate another kind of revelation at all and there were reasonable answers for certain verses such as 662-4.
To my knowledge Al Quran does not have a single direct verse indicating two kinds of revelation to the Messenger and while seemingly insignificant matters are revelaed and recorded in the Quran.
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Even if there was, we know the hadith among the six collections
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Contradict each other and insults God and his messenger whether intentionally or not (God exposing his thigh to Muhammad on the day of resurrection...wtf?) as if God is a big tall human being to begin with.
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Has many glaring similarities with the corrupted Christian bible http//pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/hadith-plagiarized-from-the-bible/
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Was not promised to be preserved like the Quran was.
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Has a lot of bs in general (yeah............women will occupy most of hell ).
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Are only part of "Hislam" since after all it were men who fabricated them.
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Quran makes it clear more than once it CONFIRMS ALL THAT HAS BEEN SENT BEFORE IT. There was no "extra revelation" and there is no proof of this in the Quran. Only ignoramuses who do not understand the Quran will go around claiming there was, and even so, it cannot be in another book (Bukhari, Muslim, etc.) because God asks WHAT BOOK OTHER THAN THE QURAN DO YOU STUDY FROM? (6835-37)
Actually, here's the entire thing
What is wrong with your logic?Do you have another book to uphold?
In it, do you find anything you want?
Or, have you received solemn assurances from us that grant you whatever you wish on the Day of Resurrection?
Ask them, "Who guarantees this for you?"
Do they have idols? Let their idols help them, if they are truthful.
The day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to fall prostrate, but they will be unable to.
With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to fall prostrate when they were whole and able.
Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith; we will lead them on whence they never perceive.
- The following proof alone suffices they are clearly 100% and undeniably condemned by God in the Quran. Read all the verses with the word HADITH in it (like the one above). You'll be surprised.
-M
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Peace,
In 663 the word used by God is ZA-HA-RA to appear, become distinct/clear/open/manifest.
God made it clear to Muhammad sws but never said "inspired" him.How God made it clear, I don't know but no where the verses says it is a "revelation".
When God speaks about "revelation", the words used are NA-ZA-LA or Wahy but never ZA-HA-RA!
Za-Ha-Ra is always used as
zahara (vb. 1)
(ر thahara 3rd. m. sing. perf. act.
6151 ...and do not come near foulness, what is open of it or hidden...
733 ...My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle...
948 ...however, the truth ultimately manifests, and God's plan is carried out...
2431 ...and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent...
3041 Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea...Also in the same verse
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"he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part.."
I don't understand it is Muhammad sws secret, so he knows all of it!!! Then why part are confirmed and others are hidden!!!
My understanding is
The secret was very personal, then God made it "public/obvious" but only part of it , to keep Muhammad sws "privacy".
then
"Then when he told her thereof, she said "Who told thee this?" He said "He told me who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."Then Muhammad has been inspired with the verse, so he knew "the origin of the gossip", and said it to his wife.
Regards
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Salam Jack
According to the Quran different persons were inspired by God but all these inspirations did not become part of a recitation forming a religious book.
It seems clear from the Quran that all inspiration to the Mesenger is included in the Quran since even the most seemingly trivial or even matters of personal importance to the prophet which was inspired has become part of the Quran.
I maybe wrong in my observation here so please let us know if there is any evidence from the Quran to prove that the Messenger recieved inspiration which did not become part of the Quran.
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Salam Warner,
His sole responsibility is delivering the the message (592).
He abides by what is 'inspired' to him (7203). Thus, wahi 'outside of al quran' becomes nonsensical.
The people of the dhikr are aware of these inspirations (1643).
According to the Quran different persons were inspired by God but all these inspirations did not become part of a recitation forming a religious book.
Maybe. Maybe not.
All these inspirations are part of this book.
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If we agree with this line of thinking that there was another revelation other than the Quran than this means that the daily words and actions of the prophet were divine and hence he could be considered God himself. I know this is absurd how could a man be divine but the same goes for the contention that there was another wahi. This in a logical sense could only happen if the prophet was divine himself and that his words were also tantamount to that of God. Maybe we should say that he is the son of god so it will be easier for those that maintain that there was another wahi. So in this case we can conclusively say that the first revelation is from the father and the second from the son. Hadith were simply the interpretations of the earliest scholars of Islam and may as well include the interpretations of the prophet as well, but by the time they were written down much corruption had occurred through hearsay and malicious intent of the adversaries of Islam. Hadith should be treated as a historical document containing the interpretations of the earliest Muslims albeit with some corruption involved. It is totally a fallible document from which we can learn a lot about the earlier times but to say that it is infallible and should be treated as a law is only a possibility if we can raise the prophet to divine himself.