The Natural Republic - Updated
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Salam all,
I have just finished updating TNR by replacing all the verses in the book with those of The Message - 2nd Edition.
If anyone would be so kind as to have a quick scan for any formatting or gramatical errors (specifically on the text), I would appreciate it
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR.pdf
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Peace Layth,
I have breifly skimmed through the pdf.
Why do you say that we are to break the fast when it is completely dark?
Please follow the discussion between me and "Progod".
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598466.0 -
Salam Progressive,
I had a look at the link, but disagree with the analysis on what the definition of
nightis.Night is defined in the Quran as "the absence of light"
"And a sign for them is the night, We remove/skin the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness." (3637)
Also, the day and night are two different signs of God which are distinct from each other
"In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference between the night and the day, are signs for those who understand." (3190)
Only when we have total darkness do we have "night" (layla) and that is the word that is used for us to break the fast.
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Peace
Salam Progressive,
I had a look at the link, but disagree with the analysis on what the definition of
nightis.Night is defined in the Quran as "the absence of light"
"And a sign for them is the night, We remove/skin the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness." (3637)
Also, the day and night are two different signs of God which are distinct from each other
"In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference between the night and the day, are signs for those who understand." (3190)
Only when we have total darkness do we have "night" (layla) and that is the word that is used for us to break the fast.
If you say so...
But what about salah? How do you interpret 11114 as to talking about 2 salah if you think that night starts with total darkness?Peace
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Salam Progressive,
11114 And you shall hold the bond at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
I did not fully understand your comment. Salat is never said to be at "night" but is given in all its relevant verses the time of cross-over at dusk and dawn which is the "near part"of the night or the "darkenning" of the night (once actual "night" comes, then Salat time is over).
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peace Layth,
Night is defined in the Quran as "the absence of light"
"And a sign for them is the night, We remove/skin the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness." (3637)
I disagree. 3637 says the opposite of what you say it does. The only way to remove daylight from layl is if layl contains some daylight to remove in the first place. If we create a simple equation it is plain for all to see
layl = A + B
remove A from it/layl
=> layl - A = BThere is only one combination that works
A=daylight
B=darknessYour view simply does not fit in the equation. day/night/timing has been discussed in many pages of this forum.
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I think all you need to do is to look at 2187 carefully.
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Peace Layth,
Night is defined in the Quran as "the absence of light"
"And a sign for them is the night, We remove/skin the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness." (3637)
Also, the day and night are two different signs of God which are distinct from each other
"In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference between the night and the day, are signs for those who understand." (3190)
Only when we have total darkness do we have "night" (layla) and that is the word that is used for us to break the fast.
What is being removed is the sun and there is not total darkeness.
Harvest Moon farmers can work late into the night by the light of the moon.
Venus the morning/evening star
http//www.eso.org/public/outreach/eduoff/vt-2004/Background/Infol2/vt2004-if9-fig3.jpgFasting is precise -- dawn to sunset.
Surah Shams (The Sun)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jmfRnriKGA914 Waallayli itha yaghshaha
And the night when it covers it (i.e. the sun as it sets or drops below the horizon) -
Salam,
Your view simply does not fit in the equation. day/night/timing has been discussed in many pages of this forum.
The sects have discussed and agreed on their erronous views for nearly 1,400 years, so just because something may have been discussed in many pages does not mean it is right.
I have stated what night to me clearly is. If people wish to argue to the effect that night can be night while it is still tinged with daylight, that is their perogative. I personally beleive the Hadiths are at work in the background of these discussions (knowingly or unknowingly) as these were the source of making that confusion for the masses when the breaking of the fast was taught to be "at dusk" according to the sayings of the prophet (then, to circumvent the clear contradition created with the Quran, we see that night has been redifined by even the Arabic speakers to be something which it clearly is not).
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peace Layth,
I have stated what night to me clearly is.
And most longstanding members of this forum do not agree with you.
Is it too much to request an evidenced reply? e.g. do you have an answer to the equation I put forward? Or is the equation invalid? Can you provide an alternative?
What alleged clear contradiction with The Quran are you on about? Is it 3190? If so, can you explain to us why this is a clear contradiction?
You seem to be mistaking "ghassaq/darkness of al layl" with "al layl". Further, I have no idea how you interpret merging of the day in/fee the night if you see them so rigidly distinct, e.g. 3129. Of course, these questions can only be answered with an evidence based reply.
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Peace Layth
I have gone through your section on economics. Are there any verses from the quran to substantiate the concepts of Murabaha, Musharaka & Istisn'a?
Imraan
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Peace,
And most longstanding members of this forum do not agree with you.
2371 And if the truth were to follow their desires, then the heavens and the earth and all who are in them would have been corrupted. No, We have come to them with their reminder, but from their reminder they are turning away.
Since when has group consensous been a substitute for "truth"? The measure of truth are God's words, not the fact that x number of people have agreed to the contrary (even if x were to equal the whole earth).
Is it too much to request an evidenced reply? e.g. do you have an answer to the equation I put forward? Or is the equation invalid? Can you provide an alternative?
Your equation is your own (i.e. not from God's Book) so do not presume to give it any weight. What I can share with you are verses that teach us about the difference between day and night that somehow have become an area of confusion
3637 And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.
4061 God, it is He Who has made for you the night to reside in and the day to see in. Surely, God provides many blessings upon the people, but most of the people are not thankful.
3190 In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference between the night and the day, are signs for those who understand.
1712 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
Lots of verses, all talking about the same thing...That the day and night are two seperate signs, and that the day is when people can see in, while the night is the stripping/skinning away of the day from it.
Therefore, as I have stated before, my understanding is quite simple "night is the absence of light, while day is the presence if light - no matter how great or how little".
What alleged clear contradiction with The Quran are you on about? Is it 3190? If so, can you explain to us why this is a clear contradiction?
What I am "on about" is the contradiction created with 2187 where the fast is said to end with "night" while the sects and their followers dare to challenge God's law and break the fast during what is still "day" (at dusk) - thus to explain their actions that serve other than God, they twist the meaning of "night" making it appear that they are still upholding God's law.
You seem to be mistaking "ghassaq/darkness of al layl" with "al layl". Further, I have no idea how you interpret merging of the day in/fee the night if you see them so rigidly distinct, e.g. 3129. Of course, these questions can only be answered with an evidence based reply.
Again I take you back to the clear defintions God has given to us in 3640 and 1067 as to what night and day are. You seem to getting hung-up on on other verses that use qualifying phrases "darkenning of the night", "near part of the night" , "merging of the day and night" in describing their subject matter.
Here is another verse to mull on
2871 Say ?Have you noted what if God made the night eternal, until the Day of Resurrection? Which god, other than God, can bring you with light? Do you not listen??
By your definitions and logic, this verse does'nt sound that bad since people could be in an eternal "dusk" and that could still be considered "night"....
Yet, when we see "night" for what it is (the absence of light as mentioned even in the verse above) then this threat becomes very scary that people would be trapped in an eternal darkness.
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2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray yourselves so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. You may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread from/at/of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night (sunset)...
White thread = sunray
Black thread = darkness of the nightBoth are present at dawn, ergo
It is simultaneoulsy night and day at dawn.
2261 ...God merges the night into the day, and He merges the day into the night. God is Hearer, Seer.
The merging points/phases are sunrise and sunset, meaning that they are part of day AND night.
Peace
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peace Layth,
By pointing out majority of long term members disagree with your view was to make one reflect, that is all. It was also to point out to forum members, that works such as "The Natural Republic" should not be considered representative of the forum members/moderators/etc.
Your equation is your own (i.e. not from God's Book) so do not presume to give it any weight.
The logic of the equation is based on 3637. If you disagree with it, simplay say so. Instead, you sidestep answering and do not provide an alternative.
while the night is the stripping/skinning away of the day from it.
Actually, 3637 says "al layl, we skin/strip/remove the daylight from it(layl) so/then/fa itha/when they are in darkness.
Can you tell us the simple purpose of "fa-itha" in Arabic? Does it imply a sequence/order or not?
What I am "on about" is the contradiction created with 2187 where the fast is said to end with "night" while the sects and their followers dare to challenge God's law and break the fast during what is still "day" (at dusk) - thus to explain their actions that serve other than God, they twist the meaning of "night" making it appear that they are still upholding God's law.
I thought you were referring to a Quranic contradiction that would result with my view. I assume you have no such contradiction then.
Definition of contradiction
In classical logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradictionmerging of the day and night"
It actually says "merging of the day fee/in the night".
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Peace,all...
Verse 3638 is describing the sign of "Night" and not threatening to pose an eternal darkness,the verses 31-42 are a demonstration of God
s signs and provisions for his creation,the verse simply describes the Night as darkness after the complete removal "Insilakh" of the Day/light,I understand your equation,brother Wakas,youve made the Night two elements because you read the verse literally as "we removed the day "from" the night",while the Night is only one element;darkness without any trace of day, means -to me-that we took away every trace of day from it.Verse 2261 describes the wondrous process of turning the night into day and the day into night,Dusk and Dawn are transitional periods where this process magically takes place,and those two specific times effect the human soul very deeply,and inspire serenity,that`s why prayer is suggested at them.
That is my point of view,and God knows better,he teaches us.
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Peace Layth
Congratulations on this great work, may God be pleased with you. I have had a quick scan having read the old version and could not spot anything wrong. I particularly like the chapter on the calendar, very logical arguments in my opinion. Seems like, however, 3 schools of thought going on in the forum, a summer Ramadhan, a winter Ramadhan and a travelling Ramadhan! & As I am still trying to read on this topic for myself I have not made up my mind yet, but very logical arguments from all camps. All I can do is pray to God to help me be lead in the right path. Unfortunatly, my arabic is not good, ok rubbish, so I am more reliant on reading articles such as yours and reading the different discussions going on and lean towards a point of view which I feel is more logical and is solely dependent on Quran.
I am new to the forum and I have been following the discussion going on with summer solstice verses traditional travelling Ramadhan. I haven't yet seen any discussions putting your theory of the winter solstice, or have a missed this thread? I am quite suprised but I think the arguments put forward are quite strong.Peace
Hope
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Salam all,
I have just finished updating TNR by replacing all the verses in the book with those of The Message - 2nd Edition.
If anyone would be so kind as to have a quick scan for any formatting or gramatical errors (specifically on the text), I would appreciate it
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR.pdf
Just saw this thread today..I would like to congratulate you! bravo handshake
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While I commend the effort of the "founders" of Free minds, mainly because I believe it is important that people have the freedom to ask questions and an obligation to understand our religion better than most of us do, I have to wonder if perhaps this is the best approach. Trying to change the way people pray, the number of days they fast, or when they break their fast in Ramadan, seems a bit much, as it is likely to be met with resistance. In addition, isn't it the intent that matters the most? I think that as Muslims it would be good to improve laws for women to afford freedom and liberation. And I wish the muslim community would take a more inclusive approach towards people like me (who don't necessarily wear the 7ijab) or others (who may like their glass of wine too much to give it up) rather than treat people exclusively and judgmentally. But it is one thing to argue for a more inclusive community where we are free to question certain elements of the faith and another thing to re-invent Islam and try to change some of the nice traditions.
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Salaam.
I don't think anyone is trying to change the way someone prays, fasts etc. What we are trying to do with The Natural Republic is to present findings based on the Quran. Those findings will fly in the face of what we have been taught over the years, but it's still important to put the ideas out there to provoke thought and discussion and study of the Quran.
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Dear DColorado,
I think you have misunderstood. As Haroon pointed out, no one is trying to re-invent Islam or to do away with any of its tenets (God forbid!). What we are attempting is to do away with the rituals and tenets and teachings that are not from Islam but are from external sources that dare to compete with God as idols besides Him.
The Islam of the Quran is not recongizable from the sectarian versions being practiced today.
Regards,
