Lot offering his daughters
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I searched if something like this had been posted in the past.
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were
committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters,
they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me
regarding my guests. Is there no wise man among you??1571 He said ?Here are my daughters if it is your intention.?
We discussed those verses in the thread about homosexuality that I started. A prophet and his wives were always like parents to their people
336 The prophet is closer to the believers than themselves, and his wives are mothers to them. And God?s decree to the believers and the emigrants is that before they help their relatives, they have taken care of their own families first. Such has been decreed in the Scripture.
2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? from before as well as in this...
If one related this to the account of the old testament, one can presume that Lot is offering his daughters to males of Sodom so they can have sex the natural way. Anyone else find this a bit disturbing?
Yes, the Bible's account of the story of Lot is very disturbing indeed. The god never advocates evil (72 and offering your daughters is pure evil.
I'm still not even clear on the crime being committed by the people of the town of Lot so it might be something completely different.
They used to cheat on their wives (26166), have orgies (2929), castrate men (2929), subjugate men by raping them (1177-79) and behave xenophobically (1570). I don't think Lot's people were punished for homosexuality because the evidence for that idea seems very weak.
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Salam,
The answer to this question has been provided in the Quran
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no wise man among you??
1179 They said ?You know we have no interest in your daughters, and you are aware of what we want!?
Lot offered something which he already knew would be rejected, therefore, he was never putting his daughters in any harm, but only was attempting to reason with these homosexual transgressors that they may cease and not assult/rape his male guests.
Assuming Lot really was offering his biological daughters, then the following verses make it abundantly clear that he was very keen on having his daughters raped
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no sane man among you??
Understanding "my daughters" as Lot's biological daughters is wrong because the above verse tells us that Lot told his people that taking his "daughters" would be "godly", "sane" and "pure".
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peace
The quran corrects the errors in the bible- but the people here are still holding to a translation done in the 11 th centuery by a christian priest.
Try this Layth
There isn?t another person called lot but it is a descriptive term of Abraham ? who was sympathetic, and didn?t want to have his son Moses slaughtered First is the soldiers of pharaoh , who are served with a roast and are told that the wife is a barren old lady, so how could she have a son/child at this age e.t.c.
Using lanes and qd.
1176
O Abraham forsake this indeed it verily has come the Commandment (of) your lord (pharaoh) ?????1177
And when came our drove (to) the sympathetic (not lot but Abraham) he was grieved on their account and felt constrained by in power/strength and he said this (is) day distressful.http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000249.pdf
1178
And came to him his people rushing towards him and since aforetime they used to commit crimes he said O my people those my daughters they (are) most righteous to you so fear Allah and not degrade me in my hospitality is there not among you a single man right-minded.peace
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Supernaut,
Assuming Lot really was offering his biological daughters, then the following verses make it abundantly clear that he was very keen on having his daughters raped
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no sane man among you??
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that they were to be raped! The people of Lot only committed homosexual acts, never hetrosexual acts (see verses below for further corroboration), as such, the daughters of Lot were never in any real or even imagined danger.
780 And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before??
781 ?You approach the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people.?2754 And Lot, when he said to his people ?Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see??
2755 ?You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people.?It just doesnt get any clearer than that...These people were homosexuals and had no desire/interest in women.
Now, as to what the crimes of Lot's people were that deserved to get them destroyed by God, here is the answer in the order given by the Quran
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!?
2929 ?You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society.? But the only response from his people was to say ?Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!? Understanding "my daughters" as Lot's biological daughters is wrong because the above verse tells us that Lot told his people that taking his "daughters" would be "godly", "sane" and "pure".- Sexually approach men
- Highway robbery
- Bringing all vice to their society
Homosexuality + robbery + vice = destruction
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peace
Abraham is lot;
029.024
YUSUFALI So naught was the answer of people except that they said "Slay him or burn him." But Allah did save him from the Fire. Verily in this are Signs for people who believe.
029.025
YUSUFALI And he said "For you, ye have taken idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help."
029.026
YUSUFALI But Lut had faith in Him He said "I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise."
029.027
YUSUFALI And We gave Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.
029.028
YUSUFALI And Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.
029.029
YUSUFALI "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this they said "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth."
029.030
YUSUFALI He said "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!"God gives lot Issaq and jacob(2927)
but don't believe it if you can't see it. peace
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peace
Abraham is lot;
029.024
YUSUFALI So naught was the answer of people except that they said "Slay him or burn him." But Allah did save him from the Fire. Verily in this are Signs for people who believe.
029.025
YUSUFALI And he said "For you, ye have taken idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help."
029.026
YUSUFALI But Lut had faith in Him He said "I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise."
029.027
YUSUFALI And We gave Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.
029.028
YUSUFALI And Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.
029.029
YUSUFALI "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this they said "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth."
029.030
YUSUFALI He said "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!"God gives lot Issaq and jacob(2927)
but don't believe it if you can't see it. peace
029026 Thus, Lot believed with him and said "I am emigrating to my Lord. He is the Noble, the Wise
031 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they then said "We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked."
0 29032 He said "But Lot is in it!" They said "We are fully aware of who is in it. We will save him and his family, except his wife; she is of those doomed." Qala inna feeha lootan qaloo nahnu aAAlamu biman feeha lanunajjiyannahu waahlahu illa imraatahu kanat mina alghabireena
029033 Thus when Our messengers came to Lot, they were mistreated, and he was embarrassed towards them. And they said "Do not fear, and do not be saddened. We will save you and your family, except for your wife; she is of those doom -
Layth,
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that they were to be raped!
No, no, I don't think Lot was offering his daughters to his people. However, if we assume that by "daughters" he meant his biological daughters, then we must assume that he was very keen on offering his daughters because he told his people that taking his "daughters" would be the "sane", "pure" and "godly" thing to do.
The people of Lot only committed homosexual acts, never hetrosexual acts (see verses below for further corroboration), as such, the daughters of Lot were never in any real or even imagined danger.
No, they were married to women. It's my humble opinion that they had wives and had sex with men just to subjugate them. They weren't in danger because Lot wasn't offering them and they felt no need to subjugate them.
780 And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before??
781 ?You approach the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people.?2754 And Lot, when he said to his people ?Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see??
2755 ?You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people.?It just doesnt get any clearer than that...These people were homosexuals and had no desire/interest in women.
They were doing things that no one had ever done before them according to 780. Homosexuality has been around forever. It's more common than heterosexuality in some animals so we can't assume that 780 is telling us that no homosexuals existed prior to Lot's people. I think this is the first indication that the sin of Lot's people wasn't homosexuality (which reason tells us is no different from heterosexuality in terms of morality). If we take all the verses about Lot's people into consideration, it seems like Lot's people were marrying women (26166 and 2755), but cheating on them by having non-consensual sex with men (they were eager on raping Lot's guests).
Now, as to what the crimes of Lot's people were that deserved to get them destroyed by God, here is the answer in the order given by the Quran
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!?
2929 ?You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society.? But the only response from his people was to say ?Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!? Understanding "my daughters" as Lot's biological daughters is wrong because the above verse tells us that Lot told his people that taking his "daughters" would be "godly", "sane" and "pure".- Sexually approach men
- Highway robbery
- Bringing all vice to their society
Homosexuality + robbery + vice = destruction
I don't know any Arabic, but I think 2929 tells us that Lot's people were "cutting the path" and not "committing highway robbery". Perhaps "cutting the path" refers to castration. Furthermore, homosexuality was around well before the bronze age (the period in which I think Lot's people lived) so something that "no others have ever done before" can't refer to homosexuality.
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029026 Thus, Lot believed with him and said "I am emigrating to my Lord. He is the Noble, the Wise
031 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they then said "We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked."
0 29032 He said "But Lot is in it!" They said "We are fully aware of who is in it. We will save him and his family, except his wife; she is of those doomed." Qala inna feeha lootan qaloo nahnu aAAlamu biman feeha lanunajjiyannahu waahlahu illa imraatahu kanat mina alghabireena
029033 Thus when Our messengers came to Lot, they were mistreated, and he was embarrassed towards them. And they said "Do not fear, and do not be saddened. We will save you and your family, except for your wife; she is of those doomSalaams afridi,
029.025
YUSUFALI And he said "For you, ye have taken idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help."
029.026
YUSUFALI BUT LUT(Abraham-who had sympathy for the children being sacrificed) HAD FAITH IN HIM (in Allah) He said "I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise."In 025 the people have idols besides Allah, 026 says But Lot had faith in him??
In the other ayah?s there is a gang soughting out any trouble makers who are sympathetic and want to save the children from the sacrifice- and Abraham was sympathetic so the soldiers took him away to stop trouble brewing.
Lot is any sympathetic person ? I remember once sitting in a Majid years ago a man stood up and started preaching ?brothers don?t follow hadiths , they are old traditions? trouble was starting ? there where people ready to do something, so the management , just to stop that quickly went and handled the man and showed him the way out.
I am sure you can think of other places when sympathy lies in something which the community opposes then there can be trouble ? it?s true.
peace
Furthermore, homosexuality was around well before the bronze age (the period in which I think Lot's people lived) so something that "no others have ever done before" can't refer to homosexuality.
Yes you are right , but i do believe it was "infantcide" like they were trying slaghter Moses and other children, but Abraham was sympathetic and stood up against them and he had to be escorted out of his house , before the gang started trouble.
And why did Abraham the sympathetic bring his girls out - to show the gang he only had girls he didn't have a child Moses for their slaughter.
peace
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Salaams afridi,
029.025
YUSUFALI And he said "For you, ye have taken idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help."
029.026
YUSUFALI BUT LUT(Abraham-who had sympathy for the children being sacrificed) HAD FAITH IN HIM (in Allah) He said "I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise."In 025 the people have idols besides Allah, 026 says But Lot had faith in him??
In the other ayah?s there is a gang soughting out any trouble makers who are sympathetic and want to save the children from the sacrifice- and Abraham was sympathetic so the soldiers took him away to stop trouble brewing.
Lot is any sympathetic person ? I remember once sitting in a Majid years ago a man stood up and started preaching ?brothers don?t follow hadiths , they are old traditions? trouble was starting ? there where people ready to do something, so the management , just to stop that quickly went and handled the man and showed him the way out.
I am sure you can think of other places when sympathy lies in something which the community opposes then there can be trouble ? it?s true.
peace
Yes you are right , but i do believe it was "infantcide" like they were trying slaghter Moses and other children, but Abraham was sympathetic and stood up against them and he had to be escorted out of his house , before the gang started trouble.
And why did Abraham the sympathetic bring his girls out - to show the gang he only had girls he didn't have a child Moses for their slaughter.
peace
Yousuf Ali may have inserted some hadith in ayas please read the following carefully.
http//en.wikisource.org/wiki/Quran_(Progressive_Muslims_Organization)/29
peace
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Salaam,
I have a different take on all this. I'm not sure the story of Lot is about sexual perversity at all. As for offering of the daughters, here's what I found
1568 Qala inna haola-i dayfeefala tafdahooni
He said, "These are my guests, so do not embarrass me!"
1569 Waittaqoo Allaha walatukhzooni
Be aware of God, and do not disgrace me!"
1570 Qaloo awa lam nanhaka AAani alAAalameena
They said, "Did we not forbid you from the world?"
"Did we not forbid you from the world?" This either means the people forbid Lot from hosting guests from the outside world, or it means Lot was trying to leave with his guests and the people were preventing him. I believe it may be the latter because of 11/81, where the messengers assure Lot that the people will not be able to harm him if he leaves at night. With this understanding, we can see that the people were about to harm Lot and his family and his guests. The next verse in chapter 15 is
1571 Qala haola-i banateein kuntum faAAileena
He said, "These are my daughters if you are going to do.
Now if these men came to prevent him and his guests leaving through violence, why would he offer his daughters? I do not see it as an offering at all. Lot is reminding these men that his daughters are present with him, and to remind them that they should not be harmed. He is appealing to sanity, that it is wrong to act violently to women or in the presence of women, hence drawing attention to the fact his daughters were accompanying him.
The response of the men is
1179 Qaloo laqad AAalimta ma lanafee banatika min haqqin wa-innaka lataAAlamu manureeduA
They said, "You know we have not in your daughters any obligation (haqqin), and you are aware of what we intend!"
Commonly translated as ?we have no interest/desire for your daughters?. Yet the word here is haqqin, usually understood as 'truth'. According to Lane's Lex. haqqin can be translated as 'right', 'duty' 'obligation' etc. Given the flow of the conversation, it makes sense that these evil men are dismissing Lot's appeal, and have made it clear that they will harm his daughters if they choose to, given they have no duty towards their safety.
This makes 11/78 clearer
1178 Wajaahu qawmuhu yuhraAAoona ilayhiwamin qablu kanoo yaAAmaloona alssayyi-ati qalaya qawmi haola-i banatee hunna atharulakum faittaqoo Allaha wala tukhzooni fee dayfeealaysa minkum rajulun rasheedun
His people came rushing towards him, and were accustomed to committing sin. He said, "My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no reasonable man among you?"
It has been pointed out that the verse says 'these are my daughters' not 'here are my daughters', which would be a better phrase if the daughters were being offered for sex. 'They are purer for you' in the light of the events in chapter 15, again seems to be an appeal to sanity, where Lot is reminding them that it is better and purer for you to not harm women (in this case his daughters).
The sex angle doesn't work for me due to 15/70. It is clear why the men were rushing to Lot, and it seems to have nothing to do with sex. They were threatening Lot with violence, telling him he was forbidden from the worlds. The mentioning of daughters as sex offering makes no sense in this context.
If you were trying to leave a town with your family and an angry mob approached you, would you offer your daughters for sex? Or would you say 'please, my daughters are here, be reasonable'?
I doubt the Lot story has anything to do with sex. It might be that it was an incredibly misogynistic society, where the men treated the men well, but neglected and harmed the women. The ta'tuuna of males instead of the females doesn't have to be sexual. The fact that they were ready to harm Lot's daughters supports this.
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As for offering of the daughters
1178 ...These my daughters they purer for you...
5013 ...and brethren/brothers (of) Lut...
Above did not refer to biological daughters or brothers rather to his people/brethren or tribe.
Peace!
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Sure, but I don't believe that changes the narrative in any way. They were not being offered for sex or marriage as far as I can tell.
Peace
I hope it is based on the true understanding of the nominal sentence which in essenence is informative and telling the visitors a more appropriate and descent permissible purpose for which they should have come to his place. And this is evident from the answer of the people given to him.
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I think the following provides a more expansive analysis of that verse as opposed to what the general concensus assumes it to be 'Homosexuality in Islam', Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle
http//www.amazon.co.uk/Homosexuality-Islam-Critical-Reflection-Transgender/dp/1851687017
