The SAD and FARCE TRUTH ABOUT MECCA
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Salam caleykum to all.
I wanna know the history behind the black stone in Mecca. And if it is idol worship to bowdown to it?
ive been I brickwall the whole day.
tnx in advance.
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Salam caleykum to all.
I wanna know the history behind the black stone in Mecca. And if it is idol worship to bowdown to it?
ive been I brickwall the whole day.
tnx in advance.
If you saw Hasidic Jews kissing and touching this stone (which they do) as they entered 770 Eastern Parkway would you consider them idol worshippers? Because no amount of theological precedent can replace gut reaction.
http//img405.imageshack.us/img405/3416/20090821cs1.jpg
http//img194.imageshack.us/img194/487/evene.jpg
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I need facts please, about the stone. If any body could enlighten me please. I know in the time of the prophet muhamed PBUM the people at that time used to worship stones. All the stones where destroyed accept for that one. Why?? I get the jewish thing is more of a symbolism and a sign of respect. At the same time my friend is shia, he prays with the stone as a symbolism. It represents a piece of the holy land so that they in sense are in part praying on it by using this stone. We all know Allah does not forgive shirk! So i dont wanna commit shirk in any way.
Thanks for the earlier replies.
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Clearly praying to Mecca and the black stone is idol worship. All you need to do is imagine to yourself what if Buddhists or Hindus all decided to pick a favourite statue and pray towards that rather than their local statues. I just don't see any difference.
In a broader sense I think we all commit shirk, which is why we all need forgiveness for our sins. I can say this because I think it is true that we all put ourselves before others and specifically before God constantly. This is in effect saying we are greater than God and is a form of worship self-worship. And if shirk is a grave sin and we do it as often as I suspect then how do Muslims think they will do enough Sharia approved deeds to get to heaven?
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I'm a Christian ... just letting you know.
Dear Wootah,
As a Christian, do you believe that Jesus(pbuh) is "GOD", "son" of GOD, and one of the THREE "faces" of GOD in a TRINITY?
Please elaborate on that, then we will talk about why Muslims face The SACRED MOSQUE, and NOT the black stone in Mecca during their daily prayers.
Peace,
Khalil -
Dear Wootah,
As a Christian, do you believe that Jesus(pbuh) is "GOD", "son" of GOD, and one of the THREE "faces" of GOD in a TRINITY?
Please elaborate on that, then we will talk about why Muslims face The SACRED MOSQUE, and NOT the black stone in Mecca during their daily prayers.
Peace,
KhalilOf course I believe in the trinity.
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Of course I believe in the trinity.
you said it. Christians are the MANIFEST idol worshipprs, putting JESUS and the WHOLY SPIRIT side by side and "equal" to GOD, worshipping them just the same alongside with GOD.
You probably going to PHILOSOPHIZE and say "no all THREE are ONE and the SAME!!!" brickwall, which is the case of an old cliche.
Anyways, Muslims, regarding facing to the SACRED MOSQUE in Mecca, follow exactly what GOD commands them to do in The Qur'aan. See 2149 and 2150. sun
Peace,
Khalil -
you said it. Christians are the MANIFEST idol worshipprs, putting JESUS and the WHOLY SPIRIT side by side and "equal" to GOD, worshipping them just the same alongside with GOD.
You probably going to PHILOSOPHIZE and say "no all THREE are ONE and the SAME!!!" brickwall, which is the case of an old cliche.
Actually I do think that the whole polytheism issue is precisely because we try to grapple with God's triune nature. Some decide there are many Gods, others that there is only one in a way that denies things as they are. Also it is interesting to me that you think the trinity has any place in a discussion on praying towards Mecca and therefore idol worship. I don't actually see how polytheism relates to the issue of idol worship at all.
Anyways, Muslims, regarding facing to the SACRED MOSQUE in Mecca, follow exactly what GOD commands them to do in The Qur'aan. See 2149 and 2150. sun
Peace,
KhalilI also said that I think we all commit shirk. It is the fundamental sin we all commit. The Koran in 2149 and 2150 seems to enshrine it turn toward an object when praying to me.
Not that I overly mind but using bold and emotes and capitals makes it hard to read your post. It might just be me.
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Dear Wootah,
Polytheism is a man made highly lucrative business. It is a very old trade in human history. The name of the game is intercession. You are told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own. You need infallible intermediaries on your behalf before GOD for atonement against your sins. Otherwise you?d end up in HELL. You?re actually led to shun GOD not to directly implore Him, but imploring your idol to intercede on your behalf. That is the reality of polytheism. A very good example of it is the ?Kingdom of Vatican?, the multiBillion dollar entity in trading GOD?S business.
On the other hand The Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not an object, but a very simple, down to earth place of worship, just like any other mosque. The only difference is that GOD Himself has picked it up as a GLOBAL FOCAL POINT for Muslims to face toward its direction, when standing up for their daily obligatory prayers. It has more of a political overtone to it than anything else. GOD has said time and time again in The Qur?aan that no mater toward what direction you face yourself, you are faced to GOD?S direction. In other words, GOD is Omnipresent. Physical direction is only symbolic and like I said, it emphasizes the UNITY of Muslims against their enemies.
Peace,
Khalil -
Dear Wootah,
Polytheism is a man made highly lucrative business. It is a very old trade in human history. The name of the game is intercession. You are told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own. You need infallible intermediaries on your behalf before GOD for atonement against your sins. Otherwise you?d end up in HELL. You?re actually led to shun GOD not to directly implore Him, but imploring your idol to intercede on your behalf. That is the reality of polytheism. A very good example of it is the ?Kingdom of Vatican?, the multiBillion dollar entity in trading GOD?S business.
Those are very good points but not necessarily anything to do with polytheism. Indeed whether you believe in one God or more than one why pray at all if they do not intercede? And yes I understand that one might not get what they want but what they need - but Jesus says to us directly in the Bible that God listens to our prayers so I don't understand how you have the belief that I am 'told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own.'. And I do agree again that at worst the pope and saints could be considered idols but only if one were to be perverse. The simple basis is that someone in heaven probably would put in a good word for you if you asked them. I am a baptist so I don't pray to the saints as a catholic does, which is why I can understand what you are implying but I think it overstates the case to accuse Catholics of idol worship.On the other hand The Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not an object, but a very simple, down to earth place of worship, just like any other mosque. The only difference is that GOD Himself has picked it up as a GLOBAL FOCAL POINT for Muslims to face toward its direction, when standing up for their daily obligatory prayers. It has more of a political overtone to it than anything else. GOD has said time and time again in The Qur?aan that no mater toward what direction you face yourself, you are faced to GOD?S direction. In other words, GOD is Omnipresent. Physical direction is only symbolic and like I said, it emphasizes the UNITY of Muslims against their enemies.
I don't understand what you mean by political overtone. Democracy, socialism, left wing, right wing? -
Salaam Brother Khalil,
I am curious to know if you believe Masjidil Haraam is a physical place .
Anyway, I tend to agree with Wootah that we humans commit shirk, whether we realise it or not. I personally believe that shirk does not only take form in worshiping physical object(s) other than God. It also occurs when our lives are so pre-occupied with something, that we turn away from the path of God. Narcissism, obsession with money are examples of shirk IMO. You are free to disagree off course .
Salaam.
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Salaam Brother Khalil,
I am curious to know if you believe Masjidil Haraam is a physical place ).
Salaam.
Salaam Brother/Sister? BornAgain,
Yes, AL MASJIDULHARAAM/the SACRED MOSQUE, is a real PHYSICAL place. Thank GOD/ALLAH(swt), I personally been there, walked barefoot on its grounds, touched its walls and columns too. You can alo see it from above if you use GOOGLE EARTH. )
With Salaam,
Khalil -
Those are very good points but not necessarily anything to do with polytheism. Indeed whether you believe in one God or more than one why pray at all if they do not intercede? And yes I understand that one might not get what they want but what they need - but Jesus says to us directly in the Bible that God listens to our prayers so I don't understand how you have the belief that I am 'told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own.'. And I do agree again that at worst the pope and saints could be considered idols but only if one were to be perverse. The simple basis is that someone in heaven probably would put in a good word for you if you asked them. I am a baptist so I don't pray to the saints as a catholic does, which is why I can understand what you are implying but I think it overstates the case to accuse Catholics of idol worship.
I don't understand what you mean by political overtone. Democracy, socialism, left wing, right wing?The above highlighing is from me.
Dear Wootah,
What is this belief of "Jesus died for atonement of our sins" then? Isn't that POLYTHEISM?
Regarding "political" overtone above. I just meant a general approach, maybe the better word to use is "POWER." instead.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace brother Khailil,
I've been reading a lot of your posts and I can tell that you have a strong personality, so it may be difficult for you to imagine some of the things in the following 2 articles. However, please give them a fair read and see what you think
http//free-minds.org/name
http//free-minds.org/ayman
Peace,
-David
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Salaam Dear Brother David,
Thank you for your complimentary comments about me. May GOD bless you young man. The Muslim community really needs more of your kinds, sharp, intelligent, and educated. I am proud of you in faith. I'll look into the links you mentioned, Insha ALLAH.
With Salaam,
Khalil -
Dear Wootah,
What is this belief of "Jesus died for atonement of our sins" then? Isn't that POLYTHEISM?
If Jesus is God then how is that polytheism? I would fully agree that the Trinity is at worst polytheism and at best a revealed nature of God. There is simply too much evidence from the Bible in support of it being part of the revealed nature of God and an accurate depiction of God. It is not so much that a Christian accepts the trinity, it is that we accept what did Jesus. Then the trinity understanding of God simply falls out of thinking how it might be possible.
I think you think Christians think the trinity comes first. We do not start from that basis. You simply read the Bible, get amazed by Jesus, recognise who he is and say thank you.
