The SAD and FARCE TRUTH ABOUT MECCA
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Of course I believe in the trinity.
you said it. Christians are the MANIFEST idol worshipprs, putting JESUS and the WHOLY SPIRIT side by side and "equal" to GOD, worshipping them just the same alongside with GOD.
You probably going to PHILOSOPHIZE and say "no all THREE are ONE and the SAME!!!" brickwall, which is the case of an old cliche.
Anyways, Muslims, regarding facing to the SACRED MOSQUE in Mecca, follow exactly what GOD commands them to do in The Qur'aan. See 2149 and 2150. sun
Peace,
Khalil -
you said it. Christians are the MANIFEST idol worshipprs, putting JESUS and the WHOLY SPIRIT side by side and "equal" to GOD, worshipping them just the same alongside with GOD.
You probably going to PHILOSOPHIZE and say "no all THREE are ONE and the SAME!!!" brickwall, which is the case of an old cliche.
Actually I do think that the whole polytheism issue is precisely because we try to grapple with God's triune nature. Some decide there are many Gods, others that there is only one in a way that denies things as they are. Also it is interesting to me that you think the trinity has any place in a discussion on praying towards Mecca and therefore idol worship. I don't actually see how polytheism relates to the issue of idol worship at all.
Anyways, Muslims, regarding facing to the SACRED MOSQUE in Mecca, follow exactly what GOD commands them to do in The Qur'aan. See 2149 and 2150. sun
Peace,
KhalilI also said that I think we all commit shirk. It is the fundamental sin we all commit. The Koran in 2149 and 2150 seems to enshrine it turn toward an object when praying to me.
Not that I overly mind but using bold and emotes and capitals makes it hard to read your post. It might just be me.
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Dear Wootah,
Polytheism is a man made highly lucrative business. It is a very old trade in human history. The name of the game is intercession. You are told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own. You need infallible intermediaries on your behalf before GOD for atonement against your sins. Otherwise you?d end up in HELL. You?re actually led to shun GOD not to directly implore Him, but imploring your idol to intercede on your behalf. That is the reality of polytheism. A very good example of it is the ?Kingdom of Vatican?, the multiBillion dollar entity in trading GOD?S business.
On the other hand The Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not an object, but a very simple, down to earth place of worship, just like any other mosque. The only difference is that GOD Himself has picked it up as a GLOBAL FOCAL POINT for Muslims to face toward its direction, when standing up for their daily obligatory prayers. It has more of a political overtone to it than anything else. GOD has said time and time again in The Qur?aan that no mater toward what direction you face yourself, you are faced to GOD?S direction. In other words, GOD is Omnipresent. Physical direction is only symbolic and like I said, it emphasizes the UNITY of Muslims against their enemies.
Peace,
Khalil -
Dear Wootah,
Polytheism is a man made highly lucrative business. It is a very old trade in human history. The name of the game is intercession. You are told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own. You need infallible intermediaries on your behalf before GOD for atonement against your sins. Otherwise you?d end up in HELL. You?re actually led to shun GOD not to directly implore Him, but imploring your idol to intercede on your behalf. That is the reality of polytheism. A very good example of it is the ?Kingdom of Vatican?, the multiBillion dollar entity in trading GOD?S business.
Those are very good points but not necessarily anything to do with polytheism. Indeed whether you believe in one God or more than one why pray at all if they do not intercede? And yes I understand that one might not get what they want but what they need - but Jesus says to us directly in the Bible that God listens to our prayers so I don't understand how you have the belief that I am 'told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own.'. And I do agree again that at worst the pope and saints could be considered idols but only if one were to be perverse. The simple basis is that someone in heaven probably would put in a good word for you if you asked them. I am a baptist so I don't pray to the saints as a catholic does, which is why I can understand what you are implying but I think it overstates the case to accuse Catholics of idol worship.On the other hand The Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not an object, but a very simple, down to earth place of worship, just like any other mosque. The only difference is that GOD Himself has picked it up as a GLOBAL FOCAL POINT for Muslims to face toward its direction, when standing up for their daily obligatory prayers. It has more of a political overtone to it than anything else. GOD has said time and time again in The Qur?aan that no mater toward what direction you face yourself, you are faced to GOD?S direction. In other words, GOD is Omnipresent. Physical direction is only symbolic and like I said, it emphasizes the UNITY of Muslims against their enemies.
I don't understand what you mean by political overtone. Democracy, socialism, left wing, right wing? -
Salaam Brother Khalil,
I am curious to know if you believe Masjidil Haraam is a physical place .
Anyway, I tend to agree with Wootah that we humans commit shirk, whether we realise it or not. I personally believe that shirk does not only take form in worshiping physical object(s) other than God. It also occurs when our lives are so pre-occupied with something, that we turn away from the path of God. Narcissism, obsession with money are examples of shirk IMO. You are free to disagree off course .
Salaam.
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Salaam Brother Khalil,
I am curious to know if you believe Masjidil Haraam is a physical place ).
Salaam.
Salaam Brother/Sister? BornAgain,
Yes, AL MASJIDULHARAAM/the SACRED MOSQUE, is a real PHYSICAL place. Thank GOD/ALLAH(swt), I personally been there, walked barefoot on its grounds, touched its walls and columns too. You can alo see it from above if you use GOOGLE EARTH. )
With Salaam,
Khalil -
Those are very good points but not necessarily anything to do with polytheism. Indeed whether you believe in one God or more than one why pray at all if they do not intercede? And yes I understand that one might not get what they want but what they need - but Jesus says to us directly in the Bible that God listens to our prayers so I don't understand how you have the belief that I am 'told that you are nothing but a lowly sinner and impossible for you to implore GOD directly on your own.'. And I do agree again that at worst the pope and saints could be considered idols but only if one were to be perverse. The simple basis is that someone in heaven probably would put in a good word for you if you asked them. I am a baptist so I don't pray to the saints as a catholic does, which is why I can understand what you are implying but I think it overstates the case to accuse Catholics of idol worship.
I don't understand what you mean by political overtone. Democracy, socialism, left wing, right wing?The above highlighing is from me.
Dear Wootah,
What is this belief of "Jesus died for atonement of our sins" then? Isn't that POLYTHEISM?
Regarding "political" overtone above. I just meant a general approach, maybe the better word to use is "POWER." instead.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace brother Khailil,
I've been reading a lot of your posts and I can tell that you have a strong personality, so it may be difficult for you to imagine some of the things in the following 2 articles. However, please give them a fair read and see what you think
http//free-minds.org/name
http//free-minds.org/ayman
Peace,
-David
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Salaam Dear Brother David,
Thank you for your complimentary comments about me. May GOD bless you young man. The Muslim community really needs more of your kinds, sharp, intelligent, and educated. I am proud of you in faith. I'll look into the links you mentioned, Insha ALLAH.
With Salaam,
Khalil -
Dear Wootah,
What is this belief of "Jesus died for atonement of our sins" then? Isn't that POLYTHEISM?
If Jesus is God then how is that polytheism? I would fully agree that the Trinity is at worst polytheism and at best a revealed nature of God. There is simply too much evidence from the Bible in support of it being part of the revealed nature of God and an accurate depiction of God. It is not so much that a Christian accepts the trinity, it is that we accept what did Jesus. Then the trinity understanding of God simply falls out of thinking how it might be possible.
I think you think Christians think the trinity comes first. We do not start from that basis. You simply read the Bible, get amazed by Jesus, recognise who he is and say thank you.
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If Jesus is God then how is that polytheism?
Dear Wootah,
If you believe GOD is ONE, Then what about the SON, and what about the FATHER? Can GOD be the son and the father of himself at the same time? What kind of reasoning is that? Can you show us a single verse in the New Testament where Jesus(pbuh) says "I am god, worship me?" Is GOD trying to confuse His servants?
According to The Qur'aan, Jesus was just a human being born miraculousy fatherless by GOD'S WILL. His mother Mary got pregnant by GOD'S WILL while still being a vergin. He spoke to the people right after birth by GOD'S LEAVE. He performed numerous miracles by GOD'S LEAVE. He was a prophet and GOD gave him the Injeel/Gosple.
Peace,
Khalil -
Some people think that Prophet's ultimate point in clearing out Mecca was to show that God is one.
Not that there is one god. -
If you believe GOD is ONE, Then what about the SON, and what about the FATHER? Can GOD be the son and the father of himself at the same time? What kind of reasoning is that? Can you show us a single verse in the New Testament where Jesus(pbuh) says "I am god, worship me?" Is GOD trying to confuse His servants?
I appreciate your questions and pretty much agree that when one tries to explain it, no explanation is sufficient. We can use analogies, for instance a point in space is all 3 coordinates and yet we consider it a point and do not reply to someone how can an x and y and z be one point zomg. You are probably familiar enough with the Bible to know that Jesus's persecution was specifically for his claim to be God that it surprises me that you question that that is his claim.According to The Qur'aan, Jesus was just a human being born miraculousy fatherless by GOD'S WILL. His mother Mary got pregnant by GOD'S WILL while still being a vergin. He spoke to the people right after birth by GOD'S LEAVE. He performed numerous miracles by GOD'S LEAVE. He was a prophet and GOD gave him the Injeel/Gosple.
Which is why we should just focus on the topic and not digress to much. I made sure my signature line represented me because I do want to be allowed to say what I think but do not want to deceive anyone either. I do not put any value in the Koran personally and regard it as a tragic misinformation of the truth. Why would God want any of us to pray 5 times a day towards a building is beyond me. Even just praying 5 times a day seems weird to a Christian because we all can be in communication with God 24 hours a day.
Some of what you said about Jesus is true. Jesus performed miracles by God's leave because to use his heavenly power would have been to show that not even God could survive on Earth sinless. He was on earth for a specific purpose, to live a sinless faithful life in service to God to be a perfect sacrifice for our sins and example for those that wish to follow.
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Peace brother Khailil,
...it may be difficult for you to imagine some of the things in the following 2 articles. However, please give them a fair read and see what you thinkhttp//free-minds.org/name
http//free-minds.org/ayman
Peace,
-David
292, Do the people think that they will be left alone when they say, "We believe" and that they wouldn?t be tested?
293, Indeed We tested those before them. Allah knows those who are truthful, and He knows the liars.
Salaam Dear David,
I did breeze through both articles. And I need to point out one or two things first.
The Qur?aan was originally revealed NOT as a written, but as a verbal/oral scripture and NOT instantaneously, but gradually over a span of around 22, 23 years. The Prophet himself wrote the verses down right after their revelations as they were revealed through time and preserved them until his death.
At the time those around the Prophet memorized the verses of The Qur?aan. Then after more than two decades after the prophet?s death, they decided to arrange The Qur?aan into a book in order to send copies to new Muslim communities far away.
In spite of all this, for centuries, The Qur?aan was still being taught verbally/orally by memorizing, and the main reason was the rarity of literate people/scribes and also lack of convenient and efficient media/paper to write on. Then through time as the invention of better media became available, the written Qur?aan, among other books also became readily available.
Saying all that, the early written copies of The Qur?aan did not look anything close to what we have on hand today. There were no punctuations, written vowels, and even dots associated with the letters of the alphabets. These were invented and evolved through long periods of time.
The conclusion
The Qur?aan is BASED on verbal/oral, but NOT written communication. GOD, time and time again emphasizes to the Prophet through the book to just recite the verses to the people. Some of the outstanding verses regarding this issue are 7516-19, inclusive.
The Qur?aan, at the time, was sent down to a community of mainly illiterate people in their own daily spoken and quite simple language. See 96 for clarification.
Our analysis/interpretation of the verses of The Qur?aan MUST NOT be based on the written, but must be based on its Original verbal/oral form, in its ORIGINAL language.
We must be very careful and wary of the translations of The Qur?aan in other languages and always refer the translation to the ORIGINAL language. This is true about any language translated to another. The translation never communicates the meaning of the original language exactly the same.
Now, back to the two articles,
Mr. Ayman?s 60-page long articles boil down to an effort to simply deny the existence of the 3rd ARTICLE OF FAITH IN ISLAM.
According to The Qur?aan, there exist THREE MAIN ARTICLES OF FAITH, which together and hand in hand, are the CONSTITUTION of ISLAM. These three main articles are defined, and declared as being obligatory on the part of Muslims to believe-in theme. The outstanding and classical examples of numerous verses in The Qur?aan regarding these three articles of faith are verses 2 62 and 5 69.
Let us define these ARTICLES.
1st Believing-in, worshipping, and obeying the ONE and ONLY GOD, ALLAH (swt).
2nd Believing-in the LAST DAY and the ultimate JUGEMENT, the aim and the end result, i.e., the PURPOSE of the CREATION and the EVOLUTIO of the UNIVERSE.
3rd LEADING A RIGHTEOUS CONSTRUCTIVE LIFE while living here on Earth.
The first two are mainly PHILOSOPHICAL beliefs and does not have much to do with our everyday life ACTIONS. BUT, when it comes to the third ARTICLE, it is a completely different story. Here, our faith/religion is materialized and defined based completely on our LIFESTYLE, period! In other words, you are what you eat!
The Qur?aan almost 100% of the time defines the believers as those who believe +/AND lead a RIGHTEOUS CONSTRUCTIVE LIFESTYLE/?AMILA SAALIHAN. This third article is imperative in completing the belief in ISLAM, as a whole ideological belief.
A good example of the definition of this third article is the verse 2177 among other numerous verses. The third article of belief in Islam is all about the real deal, i.e. ACTION, ACTION, ACTION, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, LIFESTYLE, LIFESTYLE, and again, LIFESTYLE. It is about the PHYSICAL community ACTIONS in bringing about a better living to everyday life of individual self and the Muslim community as a whole.
As I said before, according to The Qru?aan, ; we are obligated to physically and practically, perform a set of RITUALS, which GOD calls them SHA?AA?IRALLAH. We are to practice them on a regular basis throughout our lifetime to satisfy the implementation of the third article of faith, which in turn completes the first two, and then, all three together comprise the Islamic faith.
Let us see what Mr. Ayman is up to here. He, in an unsuccessful effort, trying to wipe the third article of faith off the face of Islam, is starting a micro surgical procedure in order to reinvent the wheel all over again. But he is pretty oblivious of the fact that the wheel that was invented thousands of years ago has successfully passed the test of time and has been extremely popular and a complete success. The new reinventions have no place but in the history?s landfill, just like multitudes of other ones before them.
Following are the results of Mr. Ayman?s Exotic, out of this world translation and interpretation of the verses of The Qur?aan, not to mention some help from ?scientific archeological findings,? creating confusion and doubtfulness regarding the existence of
? The city of Mecca
? The city of Medina
? The Sacred Mosque/Al Masjidulharaam
? The Ka?bah
? The knolls of AlSafa and AlmarwahFrom the above comes the denial of all the rituals prescribed by GOD in The Qur?aan.
? Denial of daily obligatory prayers
? Denial of Hajj pilgrimage
? Denial of obligatory charity/Zakaah
? Denial of fasting and?Of course all these conclusions by Mr. Ayman might be the result of a life long ideological isolation, a larger than life ego, and or maybe comes from a chronic laziness to forgo ?the time consuming, hard, and laborious religious rituals.? Then again, GOD knows best.
The author has installed a disclaimer at the end of each article. One dating November 2004, the other, February 2006, and he says that he is the one carrying all the load of responsibility regarding the articles and that he tries to make improvements in understanding of The Qur?aan and has asked his Lord for guidance too. So cheer up people. There is still hope for improvement for all of us. GOD WILLING.
Now, a note on the ?WHEEL? above, which I believe it doesn?t need reinventing.
What I meant by the term ?wheel? is actually the religion of GOD, i.e. the ISLAM, 319. Islam has been around since the Prophet Noah?s time defined by the same three main articles. In the meantime since the Satan had sworn not to leave us alone, thus humans kept going astray from the right path, kept damaging the wheel on the way to getting lost. GOD, out of his mercy, kept sending messengers and prophets with books and guidance to warn us, and not to get lost completely. He inevitably kept annihilating those communities completely lost with no hope on their repentance, replacing them with new ones.
The point is that Muslims have no quarrels with the sectarians other than saying that the religion MUST be about the worship of GOD Alone. All we are saying to them is to stop idolizing the prophets and worship GOD only. We are saying that the Shahaadah must be all about GOD Alone. We are saying to them not to mention any other name in their prayers except GOD. We are saying to them not to call upon anyone else in their call to prayer/ADZAN, but GOD. We are saying not to implore anyone in your DU?AA?, but GOD. We are saying to them The Qur?aan is the ONLY source of religious guidance; do not use any other source like hadith, sunnah, rawaaya, and? alongside with The Qur?aan. We are telling them that there is only one SACRED mosque and that is the one in the city of Mecca with the KA?BAH right in the middle of its courtyard. We are saying to them that the months of performing HAJJ pilgrimage are the four consecutive sacred/HARAAM months. We are asking them to restore those FOUR months back; to minimize the hardship on the people trying to perform their GOD prescribed HAJJ pilgrimage. And finally, we are telling them not to make unlawful what GOD has not made unlawful and vice versa. We are not declaring anything new. We are just propagating the practice of the faith according to The Qur?aan Alone. We are telling them to reform and repent and come back to The Qur?aan. That?s all. No reinvention at all. ;D
Peace,
Khalil -
Salam to all.
Maybe we can share this website below (just for further reading - some related to anything in Mecca, rituals etc.).
- http//www.aididsafar.com
- http//www.aididsafar.com/shaivite.html
- http//religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm
- http//www.aididsafar.com/shegod.html
- Can download the book "Mental Bondage in the name of Islam".