Collection of the quran, before or after muhammad

[hope4]

Peace

I have a burning question. If there existed a Quran in the time of the prophet e.g. written in the supervision or by the prophet, how come it is lost? How irresponsible of the people of the day to have misplaced or lost the most important book of all time. Surely people would have lost their lives and taken precausions to make sure of its safety and preservation. This really puzzles me. However, there is no denying that over the years the Quran has managed to find its way back, otherwise we would have found many contradictions, right? Probably why the Quran was memorised and also writen down to help its preservation. I dont think however, that anyone in this forum has the answer and that unless we get unbiased access into the middle east to carry out archaeological finds we wont understand our past.

Peace

Hope

[herbman]

Just a name ? Evidence ?
Regards

You funny sometimes ;D (no offense)
An archeological eveidence is not enough for you.
The links explains that the Uthman Quran is date end of 1 century, begining od 2nd century (Hijri).
So either Uthman lived long long time, either there were NOT from Uthman time.

Choose the one that best fits your "understang", "wishes", "passion" or call it however you like.

Peace

[WayFinder]

You funny sometimes ;D (no offense)
An archeological eveidence is not enough for you.
The links explains that the Uthman Quran is date end of 1 century, begining od 2nd century (Hijri).
So either Uthman lived long long time, either there were NOT from Uthman time.

Choose the one that best fits your "understang", "wishes", "passion" or call it however you like.

Peace

Definitely agree on this... The 'Manuscripts of Sana' found in yemen are the oldest known quranic parchment ever discovered I think....

[abdalquran]

Quran never tells us to

1. go find the 'mushaf' of mohamed

2. go find some codex in a museum

Rather, it is preserved in rememberance/eminence, dhikr. That's why it tells us to ask ahl adh adhikr.

We dont need to be Indiana bleedin' Jones to have the 'original quran'. Rather we need to ask these archeologists and historians

1. why do they trust conflicting accounts of quran's compilation? (mostly in hadith literature)

2. why is it, when quran calls itself 'kitab', they dont take it to mean its compiled as a book?

think about it Would the messenger (even if he was a false messenger, he'd want to selfishly preserve his falsehood) and this band of fanatics treat the book as if its something they can afford to lose?

and strangely, Muslims today swallow this tripe about quran's compilation

[FAR]

I'd counter with

7517 It is for Us to collect it (jamahu) and relate/compile it (quranahu).

7518 So when We relate/compile it, you shall follow its reading.

7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.

618 They wish to put out God's light with their mouths, but God will continue with His light, even if the concealers of the truth/rejecters/ingrates (kafiroon) hate it.

BTW, as seen from the above verses, God collected and compiled/related the Quran/reading.

Aye alhamdulillah.

[muslim1984]

Salam all,
@hope4
If the original copy written at the time of Prophet Muhammad still exited today, it would have proven many ahadith as fabricated, which claim that the quran was compiled at the time of the third kaliph, and that some verses are missing, etc. So if there truely was a conspiracy to prove the ahadith authentic, then it would seem logical to get rid of the original copy which would otherwise put the authenticity of these ahadith at risk. However that is an openion, and openions are no substitute for truth. peace

[Wakas]

As abdalquran points out, the compilation story as found in traditional accounts contains much variance/contradiction.

In addition to the book I mentioned in this thread, there is also this book which rejects the traditionally accepted compilation account
http//www.amazon.com/Collection-Quran-John-Burton/dp/0521296528/

The most surprising feature of the Muslim traditions on the collection of the Qur'n is their denial of any role in the process to Muhammad himself. The merit of assembling and preserving the record of the momentous divine revelations has been variously ascribed to some half dozen of the Prophet's associates or Companions, and these ascriptions have usually been treated as hopelessly conflicting. Dr Burton argues that they are in perfect agreement. Their sole function was the deliberate exclusion of Mohammed.

Why does he think the above happened? Well check out what he says

A crisis seemed imminent when in the second Muslim century (roughly between 850-950) certain legal views which were agreed between the schools were rejected by a powerful fundamentalist group on the ground that they were not mentioned in the Quran texts. Two replies were offered the first, that the Prophet himself had legislated on these matters, proved unsatisfactory since it raised the problem of the repeal of the Quran; the second suggestion, that these matters had been treated in the Quran and the relevant verses omitted on the assembly of the texts, ensured that medieval Islam would regard the mushaf as incomplete. This certainty necessitated the placing of the collection of the Quran in the period following the Prophet's death.

John Burton is also the author of translating and discussing one of the earliest Arabic works on "abrogation", in which he favours the argument that the theory of "abrogation" in flawed http//www.amazon.com/Sources-Islamic-Law-Theories-Abrogation/dp/0748601082/

[WayFinder]

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Some Sunni Reports on the Incompleteness of Quran

There are some traditions in Sihah Sittah (six authentic Sunni collections)
which are not accepted by Shia scholars. Among them, some are talking about
the changes made in Quran * after * the death of the Prophet. As I will
show, in some Sunnis report 345 verses, two chapters of Quran (one of which
is was as much as ch.9 in length) are missing from Quran. Here I give you
some references in Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and other important
collections which falsely allege that Quran is incomplete. Let me first
start with Sahih Muslim.

============
Sahih Muslim

Muslim in the Seventh ( 7th ) part of his Sahih, in the book of Al
Zakat about the virtue of being satisfied with what ever God gives
about urging people to have that virtue, pp 139-140 (Arabic),
reported that Abu al-Aswad reported that his father said

(For English version of Sahih Muslim see)
(Chapter CCCXCI, p500, Tradition #2286)

Abu Musa al-Ashari invited the Quran readers of Basra. Three
hundred ( 300 ) readers responded to his invitation. He told
them

You are the readers and the choice of the People of
Basra. Recite the Quran and don't neglect it. Other
wise a long time may elapse and your hearts will ne
hardened as the hearts of those who came before you
were hardened.

We used to read a Chapter from the Quran similar to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bara'ah in length and seriousness, but I forgot it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can remember from the Chapter only the following
words

Should a son of Adam own two valleys full of wealth, he should
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
seek a third valley and nothing would fill Ibn Adam's abdomen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
but the soil.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

We also used to read a chapter similiar to the Musabbihat and I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
forgot it. I only remember out of it the following

"Oh you who believe, why do you say what you do not do? (which is
now in another place in Quran 612) Thus a testimony shall be
written on your necks and you will be questioned about it on the
day of judgment." (which is a little different than what is in
another place in Quran 1713)

It is obvious that the above underlined words which Abu Musa mentioned are
not from the Quran nor they are similar to any of the Words of God in the
Quran. It is amazing that Abu Musa claims that two ( 2 ) chapters from the
Quran are missing one of them is similar to Bara'ah in length!!! The
following traditions are before the above tradition in Sahih Muslim

Sahih Muslim (English), Chapter CCCXCI, Tradition #2282
Anas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying "If
the son of Adam were to possess two valleys of riches, he would long
for the third one. And the stomach of the son of Adam is not filled
but with dust. And Allah returns to him who repents."

Sahih Muslim (English), Chapter CCCXCI, Tradition #2283
Anas b. Malik reported I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be
upon him) as saying this (the sentence of the above tradition),
but I do not know whether this thing was revealed to him or not,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
but he said so.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sahih Muslim (English), Chapter CCCXCI, Tradition #2284
Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as
saying If there were two valleys of gold for the son of Adam, he
would long for another one, and his mouth will not be filled with
dust, and Allah returns to him who repents.

Sahih Muslim (English), Chapter CCCXCI, Tradition #2285
Ibn Abbas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as
saying If there were for the son of Adam a valley full of riches, he
would long to possess another one like it, and Ibn Adam does not feel
satisfied but with dust. And Allah returns to him who returns (to
Him). Ibn Abbas said I do not know whether it is from Quran or not,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and in the narration transmitted by Zubair it was said I do not know
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
whether it is from the Quran, and he made no mention of Ibn Abbas.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Muslim also reported in the book of nursing ( al-Ridha ), v10
pages 29 (Arabic), that Aisha said the following

There was in what was revealed in the Quran that ten ( 10 ) times
of nursing known with certainty makes the nursing woman a mother
of the nursed child. This number of nursing would make the woman
'Haram' to the child. Then this verse was replaced by ' five ( 5 )
known nursing ' to make the woman forbidden to the child. The
Prophet died while these words were recorded and read in the Quran.

Also al-Zamakhshari recorded that Aisha said that the Quranic verse
enjoining stoning for adultery was written on a leaf, but the leaf
was accidentally eaten by a goat while the Prophet Muhammad was on his
death-bed, and thus the verse was lost.

Umar Said Chapter 33 Is Incomplete

al-Muttaqi Ali Ibn Husam al-Din in his book ( Mukhtasar Kanz al-Ummal,
printed on the margin of Imam Ahmed's Musnad, v2, p2 ) in his Hadith about
chapter 33, that said Ibn Mardawayh
reported that Huthaifah said

Umar said to me How many verses are contained in the
Chapter al-Ahzab ? I said 72 ( seventy two ) or 73 ( seventy
three ) verses. He said It was almost as long as the chapter
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of the Cow, which contains 287 ( two eighty seven ) verses, and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^
in it there was the verse of stoning.

If we take the report of Ibn Mardawayh which Huthaifah attributed to Umar
in which he said that the Chapter of al-Ahzab, which contained 72 ( Seventy
two ) verses, was as long as the Chapter of the Cow ( containing 287 ) and
take the report of Abu Musa which says that a chapter equal in length to
the Chapter of Bara'ah ( contains 130 ) was deleted from the Quran, then
the deletion in the Quran according to these reports would be 345 Verses.
^^^^^^^^^^^

================
Sahih al-Bukhari

Al-Bukhari recorded in his Sahih, v8, pp 209-210, that
Ibn Abbas reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab said the following in
a discourse which he delivered during the last years of the caliphate.

(For Arabic-English version of Sahih al-Bukhari see 8.817)

When Umar performed his last Hajj, he said
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed
him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him
was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it.

The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am
concerned that if time goes on, some one may say ' By God
we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God ';
thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment
the Almighty revealed.

Again, we used to read in what we found in the Book of God
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not deny the fatherhood of your fathers in contempt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
because it is a disbelief on your part to be ashamed of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
your fathers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

More references of similar tradition

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (in the Musnad of Umar under the caption of
  the Hadith al-Saqeefah, pp 47,55)
• Sirah of Ibn Hisham (Pub. by Issa al-Babi al-Halabi of Egypt 1955),
  v2, p658

The above Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari (Tradition 8.817 ) as well as
similar ones in Sahih al-Bukhari (Tradition 8.816 and 9.424(B)) all say
"Umar's last Hajj". Would you tell us when this Hadith could have been
told originally? How long had it been passed by then from the death of
prophet? Or from the gathering of Quran?

Please also note that the above verse which was recited by Umar in the
above tradition, is not in present Quran.

The following Hadith is narrated without any Hadith number in Bukhari.
It is in the title of one of the chapter of Bukhari. Fortunately, it
was translated by the translator.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, vol 9, p212
{Between Traditions 9.281 and 9.282}

(21) CHAPTER. If a judge has to witness in favor of a litigant when
he is a judge or he had it before he became a judge (can he pass a
judgment in his favor accordingly or should he refer the case to
another judge before whom he would bear witness?). And the judge
Shuraih said to a person who sought his witness, "Go to the ruler so
that I may bear witness(before him) for you." And 'Ikrima said, "Umar
said to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf, 'If I saw a man committing illegal
sexual intercourse or theft, and you were the ruler (what would you
do)?. 'Abdur-Rahman said, 'I would regard your witness as equal to the
witness of any other man among the Muslims. 'Umar said, 'You have
said the truth.' 'Umar added

If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that 'Umar has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and Ma'iz confessed before the Prophet that he had committed illegal
intercourse, whereupon the prophet ordered him to be stoned to death.
It is not mentioned that the prophet sought witness of those who were
present there.

Hammad said, "If an adulterer confesses before a ruler once only, he
should be stoned to death." But al-Hakam said, "He must confess four
times.

My questions here are

1)- Do you agree that Umar stated clearly that the verse famous as
Rajm was in Quran originally (or was revealed originally)?

2)- To discuss the second part, I have given it more closely below

.-----------------------------------------------------------.
| If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say |
| that 'Umar has added to the Quran extra (verses), I |
| would have written the Verse Ar-Rajm (stoning to death |
| of married adulterers) with my own hands. |
|___________________________________________________________|

2.a)- Was Umar afraid of people talking behind him so and so?

2.b)- Was he afraid of God MORE at the same time he was saying?
(Was he MORE fearful of God, or afraid of people MORE than
God?)

2.c)- Is anybody allowed to be afraid of people when revealing the
truth about Quran is more important?

3)-
3.1)- If Umar were NOT afraid of people, would he have been
writing the verse inside of Quran by his hand or not?

3.2)- If you were Umar, with the same knowledge and courage, would
you have been adding this verse to Quran by your hand or
not?

4)-
4.1)- Was Umar aware of abrogation or not?
4.2)- Was he aware of abrogation more than present scholars or
not?

5)- Did he know that he should (or should NOT) have been adding the
verse inside of Quran if it is abrogated or not? (This is not accepted
by Shia. I will explain this situation very shortly. Some Sunnis say
that it can be abrogated practically, and remained OUTSIDE of Quran.
My question is that

Did he know that he should NOT have been adding this verse
inside Quran since it is only practically abrogated? )

In other words, if he knew the rule, why he insisted on adding it, If he
did not know that, is the above rule an invention of some of Sunni
people who wanted to justify missing this verse?

Here is another example, that after the death of Prophet its is
alleged that the phrase "Him who created" has been added to verse 923.

One of the narrator of this counterversy is Abdullah bin Masud. As I
mentioned, The prophet clearly indicated (by Sunni sources) that
Abdullah Ibn Masud is one of whom should be trusted on the matter of
Quran.

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.468

Narrated Ibrahim

The companions of 'Abdullah (Ibn Mas'ud) came to Abu Darda', (and
before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them.
Then he asked them, 'Who among you can recite (Quran) as 'Abdullah
recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows
it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did
you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat al-Lail (The Night)?"
Alqama recited

'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said, "I testify that I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to
^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
recite it--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' but by Allah, I will not
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
follow them."
^^^^^^^^^^^^

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 5. 85

Narrated 'Alqama

...Abu Darda further asked, "How does 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) recite the
Surah starting with, 'By the Night as it conceals (the light)." (92.1)
Then I recited before him

'By the Night as it envelops And by the Day as it appears in
brightness; And by male and female.' (91.1-3) On this Abu Ad-Darda'
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
said, "By Allah, the Prophet made me recite the Surah in this way while
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was listening to him (reciting it)."

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 5.105

Narrated Alqama

I went to Sham and was offering a two-Rak'at prayer; I said, "O Allah!
Bless me with a (pious) companion." Then I saw an old man coming
towards me, and when he came near I said, (to myself), "I hope Allah
has given me my request." The man asked (me), "Where are you from?" I
replied, "I am from the people of Kufa." He said, "Weren't there
amongst you the Carrier of the (Prophet's) shoes, Siwak and the
ablution water container? Weren't there amongst you the man who was
given Allah's Refuge from the Satan? And weren't there amongst you the
man who used to keep the (Prophet's) secrets which nobody else knew?
How did Ibn Um 'Abd (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud) use to recite
Surat al-Layl (The Night; ch. 92)?" I recited--

"By the Night as it envelops By the Day as it appears in brightness.
And by male and female." (92.1-3) On that, Abu Darda said, "By Allah,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the Prophet made me read the Verse in this way after listening to
him, but these people (of Sham) tried their best to let me say
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
something different."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

---

Comments
Please read the Verse itself. It is
By Him Who created male and the female.' (923)

Do you see the word "Him who created" in that aayah?
If no, please verify the Quran that you have.

If yes, please tell us that these words are added to Quran or not?

As you see, what is written in the parentheses is missing in the
Hadith while it is in the Quran.

Do you think that the aayah is abrogated? If yes, please define
the word "abrogation " for us.

{Abrogation is to delete something from Quran by the order of the
prophet himself. For example, there is a rule for a while, then the
prophet brings God's order that the rule is extended and the previous
rule is not acceptable any more. Therefore, the previous rule is
abrogated. Now, do you think that "Him who created" is abrogated?
If yes, tell us what you understand from abrogation. Since these words
are added, there is no room for abrogation here. If something were
deleted, you could say that. Here, nothing is deleted from the present
Quran. Something is added already based on these traditions.}

Do you think that these words were explanatory words?

Your answer Yes, they were
Please tell us if the narrators of these traditions knew what is
aayah and what is explanatory(commentary) statement?
These narrators say that the people of their time did not recite
their way, however, THEY WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING, and THEY WILL
CONTINUE RECITING QURAN THAT WAY.
In addition, the commentary statements is not inside the Quran
itself. It is in tafsir. However, present Quran contains these
words "him who created" inside them. Now, please tell us that
the present Quran contains the commentary words of Sahabah or
not?

---

Sunnis narrated that after the death of prophet, Quran was gathered in
different ways, and by different people. Those who did not accept the
government' Quran (which was gathered by Abu-Bakr) kept their version
of Quran at home and did not show it publicly. However, they did
recite them as they wanted in public domain.

Abdullah Ibn Masud is one of famous narrators of sunni sources.

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.521

Narrated Masriq

'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall
ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, 'Take (learn) the
Quran from four 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin
Ka'b.' " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
^^^^^
The prophet clearly indicated (by sunni sources) that
Abdullah Ibn Masud is one of whom should be trusted on the matter of
Quran.

He, himself, says that

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.524

Narrated 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) By Allah other than Whom none has
the right to be worshipped! There is no Sura revealed in Allah's Book
but I know at what place it was revealed; and there is no Verse
revealed in Allah's Book but I know about whom.

This man had a different Quran (based on Sunni sources) with a different
sequence of chapters and different set of aayaat. As I pointed out , he
narrated that one aayat inside the present Quran has an extra word
"Him Who created". and He told this to people in different area.

One of these differences are the last two chapters of Quran. He believed
that these two chapters are not Quranic chapters and they are only some
prayers (Du'aa).

Please read the following traditions very carefully.

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.501

Narrated Zirr bin Hubaish

I asked Ubai bin Ka'b, "O Abu AlMundhir! Your brother, Ibn Mas'ud said
so-and-so (i.e., the two Mu'awwidh-at do not belong to the Quran)."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ubai said, "I asked Allah's Apostle about them, and he said, 'They
have been revealed to me, and I have recited them (as a part of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quran)," So Ubai added, "So we say as Allah's Apostle has said."
^^^^^^

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.500

Narrated Zirr bin Hubaish

I asked Ubai bin Ka'b regarding the two Muwwidhat (Surats of taking
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
refuge with Allah). He said, "I asked the Prophet about them, He said,
'These two Surats have been recited to me and I have recited them (and
^^^^^^
are present in the Quran).' So, we say as Allah's Apostle said (i.e.,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
they are part of the Quran"

%%%% %%%% %%%% Note %%%% %%%% %%%%
The explanations inside the parentheses are from the translator (Muhammad
Muhsin Khan, University of al-Medina, Saudi Arabia). They are not mine.
%%%% %%%% %%%% %%%% %%%% %%%%

My comments
1)- Do you agree that the speaker of these two traditions are "Ubai-ibn-
Ka'b"?

2)- Do you agree that he was talking about these two chapters of Quran?

3)- Do you agree that in the first Hadith, the subject is about "Ibn-
Masud"?

4)- Do you agree that Ubai-Ibn-Ka'b said that these two chapters are
inside of Quran, and Ibn-Masud thought that these two are not inside of
Quran?

5)- Do you trust Ubai-Ibn-Ka'b on this matter, or do you trust
"Ibn-Masud" on THIS matter?

6)- If you reject any of them, how do you justify your act with the
first Hadith in this article where both of them are trusted by the
prophet? How can you REMOVE and NOT remove these two chapters from
Quran? Please explain, bring evidences, and references for any Hadith
you may quote. Thanks. (I already know what you may quote, so please
be careful in quoting them.)

As I said, these traditions are REJECTED by Shia since they are clearly
illogical, and against the true content of Quran.

This man, Abdullah-Ibn-Masud, had a different set of Quran too.
Please read the following Hadith and explain to us whether the Quran
of Abdullah Ibn Masud was the same as your Quran.

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.518

Narrated Shaqiq

Abdullah said, "I learnt An-Naza'ir which the Prophet used to recite
in pairs in each Rak'a." Then Abdullah got up and Alqama accompanied
him to his house, and when Alqama came out, we asked him (about those
Suras). He said, "They are twenty Suras that start from the beginning
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of al-Mufassal, according to the arrangement done be Ibn Mas'ud, and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
end with the Suras starting with Ha Mim, e.g. Ha Mim (the Smoke). and
"About what they question one another?" (78.1)

---

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6.514

Narrated 'Umar bin al-Khattab

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat al-Furqan during the lifetime
of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that
he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not
taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I
controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his
upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who
taught you this Surah which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's
Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's
Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

"I heard this person reciting Surat al-Furqan in a way which you
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard
him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me.
^^^^
Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Quran
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be
^^^^^^^^^
easy for you)."

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6. 53

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair

I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Quran)
regarding the Verse-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..."
(2.240) "This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
write it? (Or leave it in the Quran)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my
^^^^^^^^
brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

---

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 6. 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair

I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara

"Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them
out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(in the Quran)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of
my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Quran) from
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its original position."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My comments If the previously mentioned verses which are alleged to be in
Quran as Sahih al-Bukhari claims, are abrogated, then why are they missing
in the Quran? How can we justify the last two traditions? More over, how
can something become abrogated after the death of Prophet?

If a verse is abrogated, there has to be an existing verse which
is better or equal than the previous one. This is what Quran testifies

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten,
but We substitute something better or similar Do you not know that
Allah has power over all things? (Quran 2106)

Thus the abrogated and abrogating verses are always in pair.

As the above Sunni traditions confirm, the abrogated verse must be in
Quran. There are quite a few verses in present Quran which are clearly
stated in Tafaseer (of Sunni and Shia) that specific verses are abrogated
by such and such verses. The only abrogated verses which do not exist
in the Quran are those which Allah cause them to be "FORGOTTEN" (see
the above verse of Quran). Since the forgotten verses were not in the
mind of the prophet and the people, it is normal that these verses
are not in the present Quran, since nobody could remember them because
of Allah's will.

The traditions mentioned from Sihah Sittah claim that some verses in Quran
are missing and the companions not only * remember * them, but also recite
them in public. So it can not be abrogated since it is not forgotten nor
we have any similar verses (abrogating pairs) in Quran for them. Moreover,
the abrogation is only at the time of Prophet, and not after his death.

However some of the above traditions allege that some companions believed
that people after the death of Prophet have CHANGED the words of Quran,
however, THEY WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING, and THEY WILL CONTINUE RECITING
THEIR OWN VERSION OF QURAN. Abrogation can not be an answer for such
disputes.

Also al-Hakim An-Nisaboori in his book "Al-Mustadrak" in the section of
commentary on the Quran, part two, p224, reported that Ubai
Ibn Kaab (whom the Prophet called the leader of al-ansar), said
that the Messenger of God said to him

Certainly the Almighty commanded me to read the Quran in
front of you, and he read "The unbelievers from the people
of the Book and the pagans will not change their way until
they see the evidence. Those who disbelieve among the people
of the scripture and the idolaters could not change until the
clear proof came unto them. A Messenger from Allah, reading
purified pages..." And of the very excellent part of it

"Should Ibn Adam ask for a valley full of wealth and I grant it to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
him, he would ask for another valley. And if I grant him that, he
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
would ask for a third valley. Nothing would fill the abdomen of Ibn
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam except the soil. God accepts the repentance of anyone who
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
repents. The religion in the eyes of God is the Hanafiyah (Islam)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rather than Yahudiyya (Judaism) or Nasraniya (Christianity). Whoever
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
does good, his goodness will not be denied."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sunni reference al-Mustadrak by al-Hakim, section of commentary on the
Quran, v2, p224

Al-Hakim wrote This is an authentic Hadith. al-Dhahabi also considered
it authentic in his commentary (on al-Mustadrak). al-Hakim reported that
Obei Ibn Kabb used to read

"Those who disbelieved had set up in their hearts the
zealotry of the age of ignorance; and if you had had a similar
zealotry, the Sacred Mosque would have been corrupted, and God
brought down His peace of reassurance upon His Messenger"

When al-Hakim said this is authentic according to the standards of the two
sheikhs (Al-Bukhari and Muslim)!!! and when al-Dhahabi also considered it
authentic in his Commentary on al-Mustadrak, v2, pp 225-226, and when
Muslim report similar to this from Abu Musa Ash'ari which I mentioned
earlier, then what will be the conclusion?

Those who claim that anyone who has recoded a tradition which implies the
incompleteness of Quran is Kafir, should first pass this verdict for
al-Bukhari, Muslim, al-Hakim, because they testified that such absurd
traditions are authentic and have named their book "Sahih"! This is
while the author of al-Kafi never claimed that his book is all-authentic,
and mentioned that those traditions which contradict Quran should be
rejected.

Furthermore, let's suppose that al-Kulaini in his book, al-Kafi, had
recorded some traditions which may imply the incompleteness of Quran. Why
should all the Shia be accused of the belief in the incompleteness of the
Quran? al-Kulaini was not an infallible, and if a scholar like him makes
a mistake in recording a tradition which later found to be weak, why should
we attribute the mistake to millions of the Shia? If such an accusation is
possible and permissible, why should we not accuse all the Sunnis of the
belief of the incompleteness of the Quran because they are the followers
of Umar who was quoted by al-Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Ibn
Mardawayh to have said that the Quran was incomplete, and that more than
200 verses were deleted? Why should Umar, Aisha, Abu Musa not be accused of
the same thing because of all of them stated the incompleteness of the
Quran?

We believe that the Quran as it is now is the entire Quran without any
subtraction or addition. It is the Quran which no false hood from the era
of pre revelation or post revelation entered it. It is a revelation from
the Mighty, the Praised. Allah promised that He will protect the Quran. He
said

"Certainly We sent down the Reminder (i.e., Quran), and certainly
we shall protect it" (Quran 159)

|. . | | | |. | /. || |. |.. . |. |
. q_D_9 |7| 4_| |, | q )]|| |,| , . 7, |, |
() / / / / (_)

It is the Quran through which the Messenger and the Members of his House
commanded us to test the authenticity of every Hadith, and accept the
Hadith that agrees with the Quran and reject the Hadith which contradicts
the Quran. We believe that whoever says that the Quran is incomplete, or
was added is completely wrong. What was reported on this subject from Umar,
Abu Musa, Bukhari, Muslim, Ahmad Hanbal, al-Hakim, and Kulaini is
completely rejected and absolutely unacceptable, if they want to mean the
incompleteness of Quran.

Despite the Sunni brothers who believe they have some authentic books,
Shi'a believe that only Quran is all-authentic, and all the traditions
attributed to prophet and Imams, are subject to check with well-
understood concepts in Quran.

Some of the references of this article

• Sahih Bukhari printed by Muhammad Ali Subaih in Egypt
• Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic English version
• Sahih Muslim printed by Muhammad Ali Subaih in Egypt
• Sahih Muslim, English version
• Mustadrak by Hakim printed by al-Nasr in al-Riyadh 1335
• Musnad of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, printed Sader Beirute Lebenon 1969

[Ayisha]

================
Sahih al-Bukhari

Al-Bukhari recorded in his Sahih, v8, pp 209-210, that
Ibn Abbas reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab said the following in
a discourse which he delivered during the last years of the caliphate.

(For Arabic-English version of Sahih al-Bukhari see 8.817)

When Umar performed his last Hajj, he said
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed
him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him
was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it.

The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am
concerned that if time goes on, some one may say ' By God
we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God ';
thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment
the Almighty revealed.

Again, we used to read in what we found in the Book of God
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not deny the fatherhood of your fathers in contempt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
because it is a disbelief on your part to be ashamed of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
your fathers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

More references of similar tradition

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (in the Musnad of Umar under the caption of
  the Hadith al-Saqeefah, pp 47,55)
• Sirah of Ibn Hisham (Pub. by Issa al-Babi al-Halabi of Egypt 1955),
  v2, p658

The above Hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari (Tradition 8.817 ) as well as
similar ones in Sahih al-Bukhari (Tradition 8.816 and 9.424(B)) all say
"Umar's last Hajj". Would you tell us when this Hadith could have been
told originally? How long had it been passed by then from the death of
prophet? Or from the gathering of Quran?

Please also note that the above verse which was recited by Umar in the
above tradition, is not in present Quran.

The following Hadith is narrated without any Hadith number in Bukhari.
It is in the title of one of the chapter of Bukhari. Fortunately, it
was translated by the translator.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, vol 9, p212
{Between Traditions 9.281 and 9.282}

(21) CHAPTER. If a judge has to witness in favor of a litigant when
he is a judge or he had it before he became a judge (can he pass a
judgment in his favor accordingly or should he refer the case to
another judge before whom he would bear witness?). And the judge
Shuraih said to a person who sought his witness, "Go to the ruler so
that I may bear witness(before him) for you." And 'Ikrima said, "Umar
said to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf, 'If I saw a man committing illegal
sexual intercourse or theft, and you were the ruler (what would you
do)?. 'Abdur-Rahman said, 'I would regard your witness as equal to the
witness of any other man among the Muslims. 'Umar said, 'You have
said the truth.' 'Umar added

If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that 'Umar has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and Ma'iz confessed before the Prophet that he had committed illegal
intercourse, whereupon the prophet ordered him to be stoned to death.
It is not mentioned that the prophet sought witness of those who were
present there.

Hammad said, "If an adulterer confesses before a ruler once only, he
should be stoned to death." But al-Hakam said, "He must confess four
times.

My questions here are

1)- Do you agree that Umar stated clearly that the verse famous as
Rajm was in Quran originally (or was revealed originally)?

Peace bro

I have just picked this out, you may have answered it but I didn't read all of it so my apologies, but this looks to me like Umar may have been talking about the throwing of stones AT HAJJ and it has since been changed to stoning for adultery by those who misunderstood.

[WayFinder]

Peace bro

I have just picked this out, you may have answered it but I didn't read all of it so my apologies, but this looks to me like Umar may have been talking about the throwing of stones AT HAJJ and it has since been changed to stoning for adultery by those who misunderstood.

No.. The Bukhari version of Umar was a staunch supported of stoning penalty for those who committed adultery...

(21) CHAPTER. If a judge has to witness in favor of a litigant when
he is a judge or he had it before he became a judge (can he pass a
judgment in his favor accordingly or should he refer the case to
another judge before whom he would bear witness?). And the judge
Shuraih said to a person who sought his witness, "Go to the ruler so
that I may bear witness(before him) for you." And 'Ikrima said, "Umar
said to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf, 'If I saw a man committing illegal
sexual intercourse or theft, and you were the ruler (what would you
do)?. 'Abdur-Rahman said, 'I would regard your witness as equal to the
witness of any other man among the Muslims. 'Umar said, 'You have
said the truth.' 'Umar added

If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that 'Umar has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and Ma'iz confessed before the Prophet that he had committed illegal
intercourse, whereupon the prophet ordered him to be stoned to death.
It is not mentioned that the prophet sought witness of those who were
present there.

Hammad said, "If an adulterer confesses before a ruler once only, he
should be stoned to death." But al-Hakam said, "He must confess four
times.

[loxbox13]

255 They said, "Mythologies of the ancient people; he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."

961 Read in the name of your Lord who has created.

963 Read, and your Lord is the Generous One.

964 The One who taught by the pen

Anymore doubt?

Good answer lol , u didn't answer, allah did. thanks

[Wakas]

peace all,

Since this thread was started, several very interesting works on this subject are now available to read

From http//islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html

The Quran's Self Image
Daniel Madigan

Collection of The Quran
John Burton

Conspiraces Againt The Quran
Dr Syed Abdul Wadud

History of Quranic Text
M. Azami

[hanifa47]

Peace
Where is that original Quranic script which was written in the Time of Muhammad PBUH ?
Waiting for evidence.
Regards

there isn't one. at one point in time there were in excess of 7 different versions, all after the death of the Prophet. there was much arguing about which would be considered the "official" one, and the influence of the Quraish had alot to do with the final version-it was revised in a manner acceptable to them. African muslims were reading a slightly different version as well, and then there are also the two general schools of thought-hafs and wharsh(spelling...). so, no, it has not at all been an orderly, unified document, or process, and is certainly not the "unaltered" word of God per sei. what remains unaltered, to be sure, is the main dogma-the principles of the faith, the one-ness of God, and His message to us, which is sufficient, if one approaches the book with faith, i believe. simply by the fact alone that human hands wrote and copied it, would make complete purity impossible, by default. when i say purity, again, i am not speaking of dogma, but rahter grammar, and language, and writing style. the principles of the faith can, or can not, be affected by this , depending on how large or small any grammatical errors may be. i sincerely believe the Book to be a collection of Holy words from God, but then, so is the Bible and the Torah. I believe all 3 should be revered, read, and respected.

[loxbox13]

Peace

I have a burning question. If there existed a Quran in the time of the prophet e.g. written in the supervision or by the prophet, how come it is lost? How irresponsible of the people of the day to have misplaced or lost the most important book of all time. Surely people would have lost their lives and taken precausions to make sure of its safety and preservation. This really puzzles me. However, there is no denying that over the years the Quran has managed to find its way back, otherwise we would have found many contradictions, right? Probably why the Quran was memorised and also writen down to help its preservation. I dont think however, that anyone in this forum has the answer and that unless we get unbiased access into the middle east to carry out archaeological finds we wont understand our past.

Peace

I believe the quran that they say was written by othman, is the quran written by the prophet, they didn't admit the prophet wrote the quran, because they insist that he is illiterate. Othman lived all his life with prophet mohamed, from the begining of the message, so he know the quran by heart also, why would he ask for papers and versions if there was any ? and another narration about the quran of um salama, the prophet"s wife, or hafssa , it's the othman quran and the same, this is what i believe.

Hope