Astronomical error in the Quran

[Wonderlouse]

I'm wondering if this flaw in the Quran regarding the order in which the earth and the stars was created has been discussed or explained before by any scholars.

For those who do not know what I'm talking about, open up the Quran and read from to , surat , we will find the following

(10) And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods alike for the seekers.

(11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.

(12) So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Now according to the Quran God created the earth, at a time when the rest of the universe was smoke, and after furnishing earth with mountains and foods, he turned then to the heavens and made them into the sky we have today and created the stars.

Now this would mean that according to the Quran, Earth is the oldest mass-object in our universe, something that anyone with basic knowledge in astronomy would disagree with.

I am aware of that there are some stars that are younger than Earth, but that has no bearing on the main argument here, that the Quran contains a blatantly incorrect observation of the universe by stating that the earth was created before any stars were.

Please do point out if I've misinterpreted the verse somehow or found myself a mistranslation. Otherwise I would be very interested in what any muslim astronomers think about this contradiction.

[afridi220]

I'm wondering if this flaw in the Quran regarding the order in which the earth and the stars was created has been discussed or explained before by any scholars.

For those who do not know what I'm talking about, open up the Quran and read from to , surat , we will find the following

(10) And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods alike for the seekers.

(11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.

(12) So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Now according to the Quran God created the earth, at a time when the rest of the universe was smoke, and after furnishing earth with mountains and foods, he turned then to the heavens and made them into the sky we have today and created the stars.

Now this would mean that according to the Quran, Earth is the oldest mass-object in our universe, something that anyone with basic knowledge in astronomy would disagree with.

I am aware of that there are some stars that are younger than Earth, but that has no bearing on the main argument here, that the Quran contains a blatantly incorrect observation of the universe by stating that the earth was created before any stars were.

Please do point out if I've misinterpreted the verse somehow or found myself a mistranslation. Otherwise I would be very interested in what any muslim astronomers think about this contradiction.

http//prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/61-proving-that-quran-is-word-of-god-life-from-water62/65-creation-of-the-universe-from-smoke-in-the-quran/

[Wonderlouse]

Nevermind, found it in the comment section.
Very interesting, I guess it was a mistranslation then.

[Someone]

Peace Wonderlouse, all

What came first, matter or stars? hmmz

I would translate "ard" as matter in those verses, and I think it would resolve the supposed contradiction with reality. I am just a novice astronomer, but I think there needs to be be some matter in the begining to make stars, by condensing it and rising tempreture and pressure by the force of gravity, to be dense enough to start a nuclear fusion that would create the star. This process then creates lighter and/or heavier atoms.

This leads to the question What is the best candidate to be the fisrt created atom? and why? or was it a soup of atoms in the begining of the universe?

Anyway, I feel too small in all this giant universe, and in admiration for its creator. Science is still ignorant about many of the forces working in the universe, and its vue is not necessarly the reality.

[dc2]

Nevermind, found it in the comment section.
Very interesting, I guess it was a mistranslation then

What did you find wonderhorse. Can you transcribe it over here? I am interested too.

[Wonderlouse]

These are the verses under discussion -

9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
10. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
11. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
    -Noble Quran 419-12

You and the skeptics will argue that because verse nine begins with a general description of the earth followed by verse ten which elaborates the creation of the earth in verse nine that a sequential series of events is being established and thus verses eleven and twelve follow the sequence. We shall see how this statement falls flat on its face in light of all the evidence!

First, The Quran does not lay down a definitive sequence of events in 419-12 or any other place in the Quran. For example, it does not say First he did this, Second he did this, Third he did this, Fourth he did this, Fifth he did this, and Sixth he did this, giving us the total of the 6 periods of creation mentioned in many places in the Quran (754, 103, 117, 2559, 324, 574, 503. Incidentally, each time we are told that creation is completed in six periods the word heaven always precedes the word earth.

That the word heaven precedes the word earth really have no bearing on this argument dealing with stars, unless in all those other verses the creation of stars are mentioned before the creation of earth is.
And one might just as well argue that writing these events in a particular order, and adding the word "Then" after every act of creation is a definitive sequence.
If someone could paste in those 7 other relevant verses (754, 103, 117, 2559, 324, 574, 503 we could have a look at them and see what they say specifically about the stars and earth.

Second, it is interesting to note that chapter 419-12 is probably the most descriptive chapter with regard to the creation of the Universe. However, the statement that creation was completed in 6 periods is never re-stated at the beginning of 419-12 or ANY OTHER PLACE in this ENTIRE chapter. Consequently, the statement APPEARS SEVEN TIMES IN OTHER PLACES in the Quran, thus suggesting that these verses were not intended to be viewed as A COMPLETE SEQUENTIAL ACCOUNT. If it were, one would expect the statement to appear again at the beginning of verse nine or at the very least somewhere in the chapter, but it doesn?t; I wonder why.

Now that is an interesting interpretation of this verse, one could also just chalk this up to more inconsistencies within the Quran if one would like to, but I am aware of that there are poetic reasons to write in different manners, and am after all arguing here based on an translation. I could very well be wrong, but the reason that statement doesn't appear could be because of the difference of this verse and the other ones, because this verse maybe directly deals with the creation of the universe in a detailed manner whereas in the other ones it?s just some specific aspects of the creation that is referred to, and in other contexts that might not require the detail presented in this chapter.

Wait it gets better, the Quran did not intend for these verses to be interpreted sequentially because if one does the math correctly, the periods add up to eight and not six (2+4+2), thus, rendering these verses a mere description of non-sequential overlapping events. Surely, Allah could count to six. Hence, because we have overlapping events we must take this into account when we try to put together an account of the creation process.

It could just as well be sequential overlapping events, and could once again be chalked up to errors in and inconsistencies in the Quran, in this chapter the creation taking 8 days, in other accounts it taking 6 days. They way I read it, without any previous knowledge of the verse or without any knowledge of the Quran, was that verse nine begins with a general description of the earth followed by verse ten which elaborates the creation of the earth in verse nine that a sequential series of events is being established and thus verses eleven and twelve follow the sequence.

Fourth, the earth could not possibly be the first thing created in the sequence because 7927-30 (given below) states that in no uncertain terms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Allah created the heavens before the earth. Hence, these verses are not a sequential account of the 6 periods of creation and thus must be viewed both jointly and severally in relation to the whole Quranic account of creation

27. Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
28. He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
29. And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
30. And after that He spread the earth,
    Noble Quran 7927-30

Actually, this sequence doesn't help him at all. The heavens could very well be created before the earth, but the stars aren't being mentioned here at all, and one would then have to follow verse 419-12 which seems to be the only place mentioning the creation of the stars.
And does spreading the Earth mean creating it?
Couldn't the Earth exist in one form, and after the heavens were created, the earth was spreaded into the shape it now has. This has no bearing at the arguments with the stars, but I found it peculiar still and it could very well mean that the Earth was created before the heavens were.

Finally, the word ?then? in verse 4111 is ?Tumma? and it can mean ?and also or moreover.? Yusuf Ali uses ?Moreover? in his translation, Asad uses ?And?. If you do not trust the Muslim translators then that?s your problem.

I know that your pessimism will make you insist that it is indeed ?Then? and not ?moreover? or ?and?. No matter. The internet is littered with online dictionaries. It won?t take you long to discover that ?Then? can also mean ?moreover? or ?besides? or ?in addition? or ?also? etc etc

Now this is the point I was referring to, and I will not doubt any Muslim translators one bit since they know more of the language than I do. What I wonder is if using the words " ?moreover? or ?besides? or ?in addition? or ?also? etc" over the word "Then" when translating "Tumma" is more (in a strict grammatical sense) common?
Does the word "Tumma" have a primary meaning? And in what cases does one use the other meanings?

[Wonderlouse]

I must say that I am puzzled that the person arguing against the argument ( see http//prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/61-proving-that-quran-is-word-of-god-life-from-water62/65-creation-of-the-universe-from-smoke-in-the-quran/ ) about the Quran claiming the earth being the oldest object in the Universe missed out on this verse, in the very beginning in the Holy book

229 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

I suppose that this mean that God created the Earth before turning to the heaven, fashioning it as the seven heavens - creating the stars.

But this merely hinges on the definition of the word "Tumma" I must point out.

[abdalquran]

wonderlouse, why do you translate 'as-samaa' as 'the universe' ?

[Tareq]

Is it possible that " " means the layers of the atmosphere around the Earth?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere
Doesn't it make more sense in this context?
Also, the Ayah does not say "stars", it says "lamps"="".
I'm not certain, but isn't it the Earth's atmosphere that makes the stars visible to us as "lamps"?

[Tareq]

.

[Bigmo]

I'm wondering if this flaw in the Quran regarding the order in which the earth and the stars was created has been discussed or explained before by any scholars.

For those who do not know what I'm talking about, open up the Quran and read from to , surat , we will find the following

(10) And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods alike for the seekers.

(11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.

(12) So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Now according to the Quran God created the earth, at a time when the rest of the universe was smoke, and after furnishing earth with mountains and foods, he turned then to the heavens and made them into the sky we have today and created the stars.

Now this would mean that according to the Quran, Earth is the oldest mass-object in our universe, something that anyone with basic knowledge in astronomy would disagree with.

I am aware of that there are some stars that are younger than Earth, but that has no bearing on the main argument here, that the Quran contains a blatantly incorrect observation of the universe by stating that the earth was created before any stars were.

Please do point out if I've misinterpreted the verse somehow or found myself a mistranslation. Otherwise I would be very interested in what any muslim astronomers think about this contradiction.

The "smoke" is the solar system and not the begining of the universe, as far as I understand it.

[unknownuser]

If 4112 refers to lamps rather than stars, then it is evidently referring to the Earth's atmosphere. Atmospheric turbulence occurs primarily in the lower altitude regions of the sky and it causes the twinkling of stars.

[shadowpuppet]

It looks, simply, to me as though a portion of Earth's volcanic age is being described in poetic fashion.

[Mazhar]

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/IMAGES/Comet%202.gif

The Arabic word http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/005.%20Masabeh%20{Comets}/00.%20Masabeha%20{word}.gif was much more reflective with great precision to describe the object than the word "komet" assigned by the Greeks. It becomes visible only when it reaches near the Sun. Sun is the reflection of day break and is the one who enters at the time of morning. And its visibility and behavior/movement is like . The Root of this word is " "which means to throw, hurl at someone. Here is the picture; and please compare it with the meanings and perception given by http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/005.%20Masabeh%20{Comets}/00.%20Masabeha%20{word}.gif and .

Comets and Asteroids explained by Grand Qur'aan

[unknownuser]

There is no single point from which the big bang may be claimed to have started from. It is not definable.

Rather, the universe was ONE.

It has not been allowed by ALLAH that we go to the stars and see things from their perspective just yet.

We can consider the centre of the Earth as the original reference point from which the big bang originated from in some kind of earth-centric absolute spacetime that takes relativity into account. This is evidently what ALLAH does in the Quran

• But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

• And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;

• Most surely it is an honored Quran,

• In a book that is protected

ALLAH here displays that "He" is well aware of general relatvity.

The reason that it appears to you that Earth is the oldest mass object in the universe is because the quran is completely earth centric, being a guiding message from "ALLAH" the creator to the free will given beings known as "humans" who have accepted "the trust" (3372), such a thing being the establishment of some kind of divine balance (551-7).

Indeed, any point in the universe is exactly as old as any other point - timeless and eternal.

I have reason to believe Earth is a proving ground of ALLAH who merely decided to experience life in this manner (ALLAH experiences ALL things and that comes hand in hand with being the Hearing, the Seeing). The falling of stars merely mediates the balance on Earth to keep certain things in check.

Think how powerful a smile is, a tiny little change in the universe that reverberates around ever so slightly amongst people like a goodly virus and eventually could save someone else from being killed. I like to think of each star in the sky as a smile from ALLAH pointed in exactly the right direction, planted in exactly the right place, to keep humanity alive and kicking so that we may "establish the balance" and so construct "jannah" for "ALLAH".

Looking at the sheer scale and complexity of the universe and wondering why on Earth we are here does not answer the question, if you want to answer the question as to "Why on Earth are we here" one must look to Earth.

[Mazhar]

• But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

• And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;

Here something else has been indicated, which provided a base for further study of cosmos to scientists.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/056.%20Al%20Waqeta/56.75.gif
Therefore for emphasis I swear by the locations of the Stars
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/056.%20Al%20Waqeta/56.76.gif
and indeed that is certainly a great swearing, if you people know/will know about it/locations of the Stars,

Surat 56

[unknownuser]

Here something else has been indicated, which provided a base for further study of cosmos to scientists.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/056.%20Al%20Waqeta/56.75.gif
Therefore for emphasis I swear by the locations of the Stars
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/056.%20Al%20Waqeta/56.76.gif
and indeed that is certainly a great swearing, if you people know/will know about it/locations of the Stars,

Surat 56

Recently I have read the quran with a naked mind and realised that all such meanings are allowed as long as they do not contradict and other verses are taken into account. That is to say an interpretation of the quran is correct if (1) the interpretation is in line with physical reality and (2) the interpretation is internally consistent in the quran.

Indeed, this is because the book has been revealed in truth and just as physical reality is based on a single blueprint/law (the measure and path as mentioned in quran) which repeats itself endlessly, the quran also does this. This is how any possibility of anything concerning humanity for the duration of the book's validity is accounted for.

The interpretation of "locations of the stars" is analogous to the interpretation of "falling"; location cannot be defined without including gravity. Space and time curve round stars in a unique way that would not be the same by tautology, i.e. if a bee is on a red flower and not the white flower next to it, although it is on a flower all the same, the unique intricacies of the situation make the two different positions fundamentally different.

[Mazhar]

Recently I have read the quran with a naked mind and realised that all such meanings are allowed as long as they do not contradict and other verses are taken into account. That is to say an interpretation of the quran is correct if (1) the interpretation is in line with physical reality and (2) the interpretation is internally consistent in the quran.

The best approach of study.

The interpretation of "locations of the stars" is analogous to the interpretation of "falling"; location cannot be defined without including gravity. Space and time curve round stars in a unique way that would not be the same by tautology, i.e. if a bee is on a red flower and not the white flower next to it, although it is on a flower all the same, the unique intricacies of the situation make the two different positions fundamentally different.

"falling" is a verb and if the intention was that then active participle would have been brought therein. Preposition "be" and Plural Noun as first noun of Possessive Phrase has been used to unimbiguously indicate the point that "locations" are referred. Locations of stars helps the scientists to determine age of stars.