surat 111 - Father of flame, is it the devil?
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Hi all,
I would like to re-open this subjetc about surat 111. Here are FM related topics
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13605.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597463.0A3oudhu billahi mina chaitani arrajim
Bismillahi arrahmani arrahimi1 Tabbat yada abee lahabin watabba
Perish the Father of Flame's possession! Perish he!
Father of Flame = The devil
Yada= what you possess = the devil followers2 Ma aghna AAanhu maluhu wama kasaba
what he earned of fortune and what he did as evil deedsmaluhu= his property (earth)
KA-SIN-BA= can also mean doing evil deeds cnf Lane's3 Sayasla naran thata lahabin
Burnt will he be that Fire of blazing Flame!4 Waimraatuhu hammalata alhatabi
here is where I get stucked
-imraatuhu = his wife, who could be devil's wife?
-could it be wa amru atuhu?
-hammalata carrier (fem)
-alhatabi= fuel cnf 7215 "but those who swerve, they are but fuel (hatab) for hell fire5 Fee jeediha hablun min masadin
Upon her neck a halter of twisted ropeany comment?
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Saw this translation at www.servantofthelight.com
This is based on linguistic rules as per Lanes, Wright etc. and it seem that understanding of gezm, teshdeed and other rules are beutifully applied here. It does make a lot of sense though, if this methodology is correct
Al-Lahab
(Historically The Flame.)
(Also known as Al-Masad - The Palm Fiber.)(Abu-Lahab was the uncle of the Rasul Muhammad, but this is not addressed to one person)
Surah 111 1
One who has severed utterly from all bond of union with the guiding rope (Quran). He suffered the ruin of breaking into small pieces and perished for ever. Such a man?s refusal will lead him to be in a state, like an emotive burning with thirst, being a state of ruin and as dead.
Surah 111 2
Such a person will not profit at all. One who is proud and heeds themselves high above others for whatever wealth they have collected and gained.
Surah 111 3
Such a person has deluded and deceived themselves, and caused themselves to fall into destruction. So kindle a fire to ransom yourself from the evil of such persons. Persons, who?s unwillingness to change will lead them to be in a state, like an emotive burning with thirst, being a state of ruin and as dead.
Surah 111 4
Have no self pity, after passing beyond the right and straight course open to you. That is the course in my decree towards you. The one that incites urges and instigates.
Surah 111 5
On account of this, to save your neck without delay tie yourself with the guiding rope from me (Quran), then to continue your guided journey laboriously and energetically.
Regards and Salam
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Salamun alaikum,
Sura 111 has been troubling me for some time. I have read all the reads I can access - some of them link to older threads which are no longer available.
Would it be safe to assume that this chapter is allegorical in nature so it's total understanding is not necessary provided I take the best understanding of what has been presented?
As hadith can't be used to explain the Quran (according to my current understanding) do we ignore the uncle references in the biography of Muhammad (S)?
Help would be appreciated, as the doubt of this verse's meaning is eating me up.
Peace
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Salamun alaikum,
Sura 111 has been troubling me for some time. I have read all the reads I can access - some of them link to older threads which are no longer available.
Would it be safe to assume that this chapter is allegorical in nature so it's total understanding is not necessary provided I take the best understanding of what has been presented?
As hadith can't be used to explain the Quran (according to my current understanding) do we ignore the uncle references in the biography of Muhammad (S)?
Help would be appreciated, as the doubt of this verse's meaning is eating me up.
Peace
dSalam,
I think we can easily "unmount" the hadith about Mohamad's uncle.
If you look at the verse 3
3 Sayasla naran thata lahabinThis "thata" means "that" for "that flame", the one spoken about in verse 1 "!
Peace
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peace darcus, all,
I recommend reading the threads linked to.
If "abu lahab" is the nicname of the alleged prophet's uncle, that would mean the author of Al Quran uses a derogatory nicname to describe him, but in 4914 is against the use of derogatory names/nicnames, thus to avoid a contradiction, the only possibility for the traditional understanding is to say "abu lahab" is a compliment, which of course is absurd. Thus, there is only one viable deduction it is an archetype, Al Quran discusses loads.
It is possible, when these ayatin/signs/verses were revealed, people attributed them to a certain persons, but this is not necessarily the only meaning.
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Saw this translation at www.servantofthelight.com
This is based on linguistic rules as per Lanes, Wright etc. and it seem that understanding of gezm, teshdeed and other rules are beutifully applied here. It does make a lot of sense though, if this methodology is correct
Al-Lahab
(Historically The Flame.)
(Also known as Al-Masad - The Palm Fiber.)(Abu-Lahab was the uncle of the Rasul Muhammad, but this is not addressed to one person)
Surah 111 1
One who has severed utterly from all bond of union with the guiding rope (Quran). He suffered the ruin of breaking into small pieces and perished for ever. Such a man?s refusal will lead him to be in a state, like an emotive burning with thirst, being a state of ruin and as dead.
Surah 111 2
Such a person will not profit at all. One who is proud and heeds themselves high above others for whatever wealth they have collected and gained.
Surah 111 3
Such a person has deluded and deceived themselves, and caused themselves to fall into destruction. So kindle a fire to ransom yourself from the evil of such persons. Persons, who?s unwillingness to change will lead them to be in a state, like an emotive burning with thirst, being a state of ruin and as dead.
Surah 111 4
Have no self pity, after passing beyond the right and straight course open to you. That is the course in my decree towards you. The one that incites urges and instigates.
Surah 111 5
On account of this, to save your neck without delay tie yourself with the guiding rope from me (Quran), then to continue your guided journey laboriously and energetically.
Regards and Salam
Dear kn, thanks for bringing up my humble understanding. However, it is almost a year old. Even on just a casual look, I can tell that it needs further improvements with improved understanding of language and linguistic principles. However, I can assure you of one thing. This further improvement will not take it back to its traditional understanding. The traditional understanding is just based on hadith. Just imagine, if one takes out all historical accounts from your mind. Make your mind completely blank, free from preconceived notions of historical accounts. Then even ask a native speaker of Arabic to give this Sura a meaning just based on what is written on paper. I can assure you they will not be able to. If they can not and for sure they will not be able to. Then are we still not willing to accept the bitter truth that the language and hence the message is lost completely? Therefore, our utmost efforts should be directed for its revival. Provided we care about the message at all and not about what our ancestors taught us.
Badar
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peace darcus, all,
I recommend reading the threads linked to.
If "abu lahab" is the nicname of the alleged prophet's uncle, that would mean the author of Al Quran uses a derogatory nicname to describe him, but in 4914 is against the use of derogatory names/nicnames, thus to avoid a contradiction, the only possibility for the traditional understanding is to say "abu lahab" is a compliment, which of course is absurd. Thus, there is only one viable deduction it is an archetype, Al Quran discusses loads.
It is possible, when these ayatin/signs/verses were revealed, people attributed them to a certain persons, but this is not necessarily the only meaning.
There is no derogatory connotation in
In urde equivalent term/name used is without any connotation of insult. What is reflected by a flame for that sort of attitude the word is employed.
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Looking at the linguistics, the meanings given above as it appears at www.servantofthelight.com, seem closest to the real concept and meaning, although some improvement is possible as stated by Brother Badar above.
Peace and ready to accept the truth always.
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There is no derogatory connotation in
In urde equivalent term/name used is without any connotation of insult. What is reflected by a flame for that sort of attitude the word is employed.
I guess it will be subjective whether one takes it as positive/negative/neutral. I would take "father (of) flame" as negative/derogatory however. Interestingly, this could have implication for words such as "mushrik" or "kafir" because that would imply or add weight to these are attributes first, names second, due to the fine line between name-calling and attribute-assigning, if you get me.
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I guess it will be subjective whether one takes it as positive/negative/neutral. I would take "father (of) flame" as negative/derogatory however. Interestingly, this could have implication for words such as "mushrik" or "kafir" because that would imply or add weight to these are attributes first, names second, due to the fine line between name-calling and attribute-assigning, if you get me.
attribute-assigning, or Metonym, "What is reflected by a flame for that sort of attitude the word is employed" for a person here in the verse as I said earlier. And eventually end result of this person is Fire which physically possesses the characteristic which this man has adopted in his life.
is the subject of the verb, therefroe, two hands are of a person mentioned metonymically.
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The Deceiver/ algharooru Surah 3313, 355, 5714
Abu Lahab/Father Flame/abee lahabin Archetype figure that represents those condemned due to their belief in their power in this world based on the material gains they have procured; his trust in his wealth is a pass that crushed him; both he and his wife, because each is guilty of something.
Possible reference to the originators, Nimrod and Semiramis, of pagan syncretism.
Forbidden Tree/Sephiroth(?) Surah 235, 2102, 719-22, 1760, 20120-121, 3762-64, 4443, 5652
Tree of Zaqqum Surah 1760, 3762, 4443, 5652
?And when We said to you Surely your Lord encompasses men; and We did not make the vision which We showed you but a trial for men and the cursed tree in the Quran as well; and We cause them to fear, but it only adds to their great inordinacy.? Surah 1760
Kabbalah/Babylon Surah 2102
Allah refutes Fallen angels Surah 2324The one does not drag down the other in their guilt Surah 3431-33, 3450
There have been many as Abu Lahab Surah 6928-29
Sahirin - magicians of Egypt Surah 7112, 1079, 2049-71, Exo. 7-8
Children of Israel desire to worship other gods as the people they come upon Surah 7138
The cow/hathor/molech Surah 251-54, 7148-152, 2086-97, Exo. 32
Samiri/Samaritan ? (call themselves Bene Yisrael) Surah 2085-98, 4629
Ba?al Surah 37123-130, I Kings 1816-40
Sun worship Surah 27 24
Secret Societies Surah 587-22, 2102, 481,108, 978, 1747, 1530-40, 6123, 211-4, 26124-131, Zech. 1117
Diviners/soothsayers/astrologers Surah 1516-18, 376-11, 5238,41, 675, 728-9Enemies of Al-Islam Surah 471-38
Allah knows best.
May Allah guide us closer to the Truth.
Peace and blessings.
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More opinions please
Peace
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The Arabic name like Abu Lahab, Abu Jahal Abu Masyakil, Abu Nawas is just label name not real name.Example the Desert Fox (Erwin Rommel), Iron Lady (Margharet Tratcher) etc.
The man labeled as Abu Lahab/fire in Quran maybe someone who became ahlul naar.
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father of the flame....
what is the flame?
burning with anger
the person ticking you off just to infuriate you
than the woman who adds to the situation
see only adds punishment to the man then kills herself in regret or something
note the term perish he, die ________! not a profanity
