becoming dissatisfied with quran translations?
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Salam Zlatan, all
The tehnique is so mighty that i am using it now in a reverse direction -to learn spanish and the german...and maybe the franch in future...i have recently bought a spanish, german and french translations of Koran and i am reading the first two simultaneously with arabic text...of course I am taking also a helping hand of the spanish and german dictionary and grammar book...and i am surprised that i understand much of Koran in spanish now...
So you learn german and spanish from and with the Koran? Not bad....
Which german translation do you use?
As all of you are quite unhappy with the english translations I`m with the german translations. Sometimes they add something and sometimes things are missing...Salam
warda -
As a non-Arabic speaker, I've wondered about this issue too - relying on translations. I would like to know what you all think about the following.
- The opening of Surah Baqara indicates the function of the Quran - it is a guidance. Does the Quran as a translation prevent this function? My feeling is that, indeed, certain elements are lost in the translations. Perhpas, the beauty of the rhythm is lost. However, this does not detract from the function of the Quran guide mankind.
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YUSUFALI This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;- What do you think about
041.044
YUSUFALI Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
This verse is particularly relevant since it addresses the hypothetical case of the Quran being in one's non-native tongue. As a foreigner to the language of the Quran, one might lament, "why are not its verses explained in detail?" (4144). When faced with the issue of the language of Quran, God stresses that the book "is a Guide and Healing to those who believe". Again, the function as a source of guidance is stressed. Further, this guidance is only apparent to "those who believe" (4144)
What do you think?
Ams
Peace ams.... you have touched a very important topic...i not sure if it has a simple answer......there is a lot of different aspects to ponder upon and to study them...
i am of opinion that if one is to follow the most of the available translations(if not any or all of them) to the letter that he would be pretty misguided......
btw.... "law la fussilat ayatuhu" should imo be translated as "why its messages or sayings are not distinctly or intelligibly expressed"....and not "detaily" or "explained in detail" as you have put it...
best wishes, Zlatan
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peace to you as well warda
Which german translation do you use?
von Max Henning uberarbeitung und Einleitung von Murad Vilfried Hofmann
Thanks for reviving this thread..... not long after my posts on this topic, pressed by more urgent tasks and responsibilities(read by laziness, lack of planing, and disorganisation) i have stoped my learning of spanish and german by this method....starting from today i am going to correct this unconstructive behaviour....i am sure my response to you today would be in german had it happened that i had the strenght to persever and continue with my small and slow but constant learning progress during the past several months...however its not too late for me...neither for those not being familiar with arabic to start today and thus be able to read The God sent reading in the original language next year this season...
best wishes, zlatan
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If each of you translate quran according to your understanding (and perhaps according to one's ego) then what is the "TRUTH" of the original?
Regards,
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peace,
If each of you translate quran according to your understanding (and perhaps according to one's ego) then what is the "TRUTH" of the original?
If one reads 'al quran', one should note it demonstrates & recommends verification / truth-seeking procedures. Once they are applied, the answer you seek should become clearer.
Wakas
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peace,
If each of you translate quran according to your understanding (and perhaps according to one's ego) then what is the "TRUTH" of the original?
If one reads 'al quran', one should note it demonstrates & recommends verification / truth-seeking procedures. Once they are applied, the answer you seek should become clearer.
WakasThat was not my quesiton.
If one translates according to one's ego then what is the "truth" of the original? and therefore we can't agree on anything because your translation will be different to mine - and why should that be the case?
If I translate apples into apples and you decide to translate apples into oranges - Is the "truth" not distorted here?Regards,
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Salaam,
what is the "truth" of the original?
The one consistent with the signs friend. hmm
Signs? Which signs? I don't understand, can you elaborate?
Regards,
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Salaam,
Why all of them! wow
Joe
Thanks for that "elaboration" "Gandalf" -)
You sure are a wizard -)"ach nach kimbatulu"
Regards,
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salams guys,
i totally agree, and am equally dissatisfied with English translations.. what shocks me though is how many people are SATISFIED with just the English translations.
I mentioned this on another forum, that even Bismallah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem is wracked with Christian influences... translating it into grace and mercy which are COMPLETELY Christian ideas and the crux of their message.
May you all succeed in your endeavors to learn Arabic!
here's a link to another Quran translation.
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
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Peace to all and sundry
I for one am very satisfied with the english translations, and will not be learning arabic anytime soon. Let me just point out, for those who missed it, the God is beyond language. Quran is merely a tool for 'bigger better' things.
Clarification >> This is my opinion (for all those who are in shock and awe. wink )
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Maybe it's not just propblems in translation. The real problem could be the original Arabic text itself.
You are all trying to overcome the problems in muhammads teachings by blaming the translations when in fact it's muhammads original arabic text that is in error.
Luk 643 For a good tree bringeth not forth, corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
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Maybe it's not just propblems in translation. The real problem could be the original Arabic text itself.
You are all trying to overcome the problems in muhammads teachings by blaming the translations when in fact it's muhammads original arabic text that is in error.
Yes, it certainly could be. Would you care to prove it if you know the language? If you don't, then maybe you should just admit that you're just a dogmatic religionist who can't see the wood for the trees.
The only way for guys like you to mount charges against al-quraan is by using EXTRA-quranic sources. That's very pathetic indeed.
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The only way for guys like you to mount charges against al-quraan is by using EXTRA-quranic sources. That's very pathetic indeed.
By you guys, do you mean the ones who follow the true prophet, the Prince of Peace, Jesus.
I actually do quote some of muhammads handy work, but from the look of this thread even muslims have troubles following some of muhammads ungodly teachings.
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I actually do quote some of muhammads handy work, but from the look of this thread even muslims have troubles following some of muhammads ungodly teachings.
Albion,
What you are saying is because you call these teachings muhammads they must be true. You offer no objective or rational evidence that these relate to the man.
I don't see why I should follow speculations attributed, for all I know it could be a christian at the time inventing these stories realising the superiority of the new emerging way of life. The power of church being threatened is a sufficient motive.
Instead, I prefer to follow the consistent message using my brain and validating my behaviour through a book that acts as a litmus test.
But, in your assertion it is apparently more of a case of "whatever a man wished that too he will believe". The hadithians believe in the nice stories and you in the horrible ones to justify your idol worship to jesus. You and the hadithians can't maintain a balance of independent thought as your thinking is severely corrupted by your ideologies.
Ofcourse, if you can offer any objective evidence that these statements were infact made by the Prophet and the Qur'an approves these then I am prepared to consider your position.
regards
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Peace be upon you,
We are to read the signs in the universe from the horizons tro within our Spirits/Minds. We verify if the reading is from the God by looking for contradiction. We recognize all of creation to be manifestations of the ONE God, this includes Jesus, no matter how much a human wants to idolize another REPORTED human. It is certainly the truth that mankind was shown an analogy and they took it incorrectly as literal. There is a great lesson iin that story when we are ready to stop differentiating between messengers and listen to the UNIFIED MESSAGE. Why fight over written books? Lets deal with the lessons that can be verified. Lets come to a common agreement about the One SOURCE.
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Peace everyone,
This is a very interesting thread, in my opinion.
In my view, no translation of the Quran is perfect/flawless. I think all translations of the Quran contain errors. And I believe that the meanings of many quranic words, get lost in translation. No matter how beautiful a painting is, the objects in the painting can never feel as real as natural objects. Similarly, an english translation of the Quran, can never convey the full meaning of quranic words.
Many classical arabic words in the Quran, seem to have no english equivalents. For example the quranic words "Allah", "sabr" and "sawm" seem to have no english equivalents. I think that if one wants to understand the full meaning of quranic words, then one has to use different study tools/resources.
I recommend using these study tools/resources
- A concordance of the Quran (see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607032.msg359413#msg359413).
- An arabic dictionary/lexicon of the Quran (e.g. Arabic-English lexicon by E.W. Lane).
- A word for word Arabic-English translation of the Quran (see http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp).
- A comparison of several/multiple quranic translations (See http//www.islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an
- A grammar of the arabic language (See this http//www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/other/arabic_for_dummies.pdf).
- A book about interpretation techniques/methods (e.g. a book about Hermeneutics).
And I recommend this post.
I'd also like to share a quote here
You said that when you translated the word ummy from arabic to english it means illiterate. It seems that you have used Modern Arabic dictionary to translate the quranic word ummy to english. But the fact is that the language of the Quran is not Modern Arabic. "Modern Arabic" is not the language of the Quran. The language of the Quran is Classical Arabic. There is a a huge difference between Modern Arabic and Classical Arabic. Therefore I think we should not use Modern Arabic dictionaries to translate Quranic words to english. In my opinion, we should only use Classical Arabic dictionaries when translating quranic words to english. Because the language of the Quran is Classical Arabic, not Modern Arabic. For example, if a man/woman is going to translate a greek book from greek to english, it is not a good idea to use a german dictionary when translating the greek book to english. If a man/woman wants to translate a greek book to english, then he/she should use a greek dictionary. Because the language of the greek book is greek, not german.
Hopefully, you will find the tips and advice, plus the link and the quote in this post useful/helpful.
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Why is it necessary to acquire skill for real-time translation of Grand Qur'aan when more than hundred translations are readily available?
There are two reasons. Real-time translation is an intense activity of one's own brain. Reading a translation is near-passive activity, or involves less intellectual effort. Reading a translation may add to one's information-archive but may not necessarily enhance his level of understanding. Grand Qur'aan, a non-fiction book, aims at successively increasing the level of intellectual understanding of its reader to ascensions beyond the physical realms.
Except academic translations of legal documents and discourses, a translation of non-fiction book is the perception and understanding of a translator about the source text. It is, thereby, but subjective since his effort is restricted to his acquired level of information and understanding by that point in time about various subjects discussed in the book. Since the level of information and knowledge keeps expanding, the understanding and thereby the translation of an individual of 7-20th century was certainly based upon the perceptions and understandings of people in those times. For us in the 21st century, such translations are merely opinions, scholarship of individual translator notwithstanding.
Secondly, the need for acquiring skill for real-time translation is for reason that Grand Qur'aan is alive in time and space. It is declared as "Infallible Discourse", a miscellany of facts for all times. Therefore, barring a truly academic translation, all translations of the past will become redundant-obsolete for successive generations in timeline. However, its characteristic feature; "Infallible Discourse" and declaration about its contents as absolutely void of peeving substance suspicious, conjectural, whimsical, conflicting, ambiguous, anomalous, irrational, un-certain, illusory, unsubstantiated, incongruous, biased and opinionated matter, renders it understandable for readers of any point of timeline.
Why all translations of the past have become obsolete even if they were not academic translations? Grand Qur'aan informed in advance
We will henceforth keep visually exposing Our tangible-physical realities prevalent in the Universe-horizons and in their own bodies to the eyes of those who do not accept the Qur'aan;
The purpose of this visual manifestation is that the fact of Qur'aan being Infallible Doctrine-Statement of Established Fact might become self manifest for them.
Do you think that your Sustainer Lord has not yet been considered to suffice as ultimate observer?
The fact is that He the Exalted is the One and only Who is the Observer-the Omnipresent upon each and every thing/whole time and space.
Grand Qur'aan informed that Allah the Exalted will keep bringing to human visual access the knowledge about universe and human body, whereby the fact that Grand Qur'aan is the infallible discourse of absolute reality might become self manifest to the people who keep denying it. Why a first time observation of hitherto unseen thing manifests that the Qur'aan is a statement of proven fact? This is possible only if the same thing finds verbal mirroring of it in the Qur?aan. Verbal specification and visual observation are two aspects of identification of a tangible fact of real existence, as denoted by Arabic word ayah. The visual observation of an earlier unseen fact will manifest the book written earlier in time as the Book of Facts which contains its verbal presentation. This will establish that the Book really contains verbal statements of physical/scientific facts and is not conjectural, hypothetical and presumptive in its contents.
Wisdom is that state of acquisition of knowledge when the invisible of the matter and its relationships {} become perceivable through vision and intellect. However, the remote past and remote future is beyond our vision and perception. Notwithstanding what distance we could cover in the past and the future we can never say with confidence and certainty that we have reached and seen and perceived the things at the point of beginning or ending in future. We can never encompass the matter in its entirety not only because of its extremely voluminous and diversified nature but also because we know the skies are expanding all the time. Therefore, if we can manage to reach its today's last boundary and limit it would have gone farther the moment we reach the point we thought is the ending point. It is an endless pursuit; this is the limitation of our capability of vision and intellect. We will always end up in a closed street.
Knowledge is primarily divided into two branches; knowledge of things/matter and what happened-was talked about by the people; their dialogues, habits and acts in the past. The knowledge about the matter is verifiable in time and space. Anything said by anyone or a book regarding physical matters could be subjected to verification in time and space about its truth to an exact detail. If we find the words of a book relating to physical matters written earlier in time as true and factually and materially correct in all respects then we will have to believe too, in those statements of the Book which narrate some events/dialogues between people of past/historical statements. The falsification test of any book/statement could be the physical one. The facts mentioned in the Qur'aan about the Universe and human body is in itself the falsification test of the Book.
When we apply this test upon the exegeses and translations of the past, none stands the test. Therefore, in the light of the above declarative statement in the Qur'aan; do we have any option but to treat all earlier exegeses and translations as obsolete and of no avail for the people of 21st century?
There is yet another reason why every reader should attempt acquiring the skill for real-time translation of Qur'aan. It is the Semantic density of information in Grand Qur'aan embedded in just 6236 Ayahs. It is so voluminous that we will never be able to empty its words; therefore, no translation is exhaustive. May be you retrieve such pearls of wisdom which did not come to notice of all the translators.
Quite many people have translated the text of Grand Qur'aan for various motivations, considerations and intentions, good as well as bad, in timeline. Detailed account can be seen in World Bibliography of The Translations of The Meanings of The Holy Qur'an (Istanbul, OIC Research Center, 1986), Most of these are available on line. It is worldwide known fact that the first translations to English were not undertaken by the believers in Qur'aan. During 231 year period from 1649 to 1904 only four English translations were produced, all four by scholars who had their identity as Christians.
The fact remains that no attempt was ever made for the academic translation of Grand Qur'aan. Moreover, it is an undeniable and unfortunate fact that just few scholars attempted translating the Grand Qur'aan in their respective target language directly from its Arabic text. Thanks to computer and internet technology, it is now easy to see the majority of translations on one page. This blessing of technology has highlighted a dismal image of saddening effect; when we see many translations on one page we find more plagiarism than original work. Majority merely "re-translated", or "reproduced" already available translations; particularly that of George Sale and John Rodwell, with slight difference of sentence structuring, and replacements by synonyms and synonymous words of the same language. The conspicuous difference will be noticed only about additions of sectarian biases. The fact of reliance upon such translations becomes glaring in later translations when we find such opinions; which otherwise seem irrational, illogical and even ridiculous on face value, were plagiarized.
On the other extreme, one finds that scholars of remote past strangely kept fabulate whenever episode of life of the Elevated Messengers of Allah the Exalted finds mention in Qur'aan. Thereafter, the plagiarists in timeline have repeated it extensively that now it is as if engraved in memories of majority. However, the original episode in the original Arabic words of Qur'aan is ever safe for those who wish not to live in fictional realm.
It were only the Jews at the time of revelation of Qur'aan who are criminally charged for slandering, ill-reputing, and associating fabricated ridiculous stories with the Chosen and Elevated Allegiants sent as Messengers of Allah the Exalted, which are not becoming of their dignity, status, honour, and reverence. They did not hesitate doing so even for Sulie'maan alai'his'slaam who had made them sort of superpower.
In view of the foregoing it is necessary for us to acquire skill for real-time translation of Grand Qur'aan shedding preconceived notions and extreme regards for people who earlier translated it and wrote exegeses. It does not entail disrespect.
Why is it necessary to acquire skill for real-time translation of Grand Qur'aan when more than hundred translations are readily available?
