Does Allah Swear or needs to?
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Dear Brother, your critique duly acknowledged. But before I address it, please use your reason and logic to attempt to answer questions presented in the beginning. Why does Rubb need to swear and take oaths? Just to convince Ones own creation? Does he really need to do this? Who is more trust worthy then him? a tree, one of his own creation, without any manifest intelligence? Please, explain all these questions, that would be acceptable to a sound mind. Peace.
Badar
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Ok bro. Well I don't read 'wa' as an oath. 'Wa' to me is 'and' or 'while'. It shows concurrence. I don't believe in this oaths by God. The word 'ayman' in Quran alludes to oaths but I've never seen Allah give it.
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Okay Bro that is cool. Let us analysis at this line of understanding. Wa means ?And? and Altin means ?The Fig?; again Wa again means "And" alzzaytooni means "The Olive". Please explain what principle Rubb is trying to teach me. Does he like to play games or riddles with his creations? May be he is trying to tell me eat lots of Figs and Olives to stay healthy. But how come, I do not even have a loaf of bread to feed my entire family. I do not even have a job my Rubb. How, I am going to get all these expensive fruits? O I realize you are only Rubb for elites, ones who hoard resources. You do not take care for ones, like us.
Dear brother, what kind of Rubb is this? Do you really believe in this one? Or even want to believe in this one?
Badar
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Badar, lets assume for a minute I don't know the hikmah behind 95/1-2. Does that mean there is no hikmah at all? Remember, our process of understanding Quran is an ongoing process (20/114). This being the case, how would you know my lacking an answer is because there is no answer?
As it happens, I take it mean that the fig and the olives are to be studied for their properties. They are eternal examples of the best of forms (since ahsan taqweem is mentioned in this very surah). Perhaps also it has a link to 'balad al-ameen', the peaceful land.
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Brother you missed my point completely again. However, if for argument sake, I assume that tomorrow due a stellar research, it is found that both Fig and Olive are cure for an incurable disease. How does it answer my questions to my Rubb presented above? We know all new medications are patented by elites again; although they never invent anything new, contrary to their claims. Just discover something among vast resources available from our Rubb. However, they do make it expensive for all. How I am going to afford this cure?
Furthermore, this reasoning raises these questions. Is Alkitab bound book of principles for conducting life or else a manual of science? If it a manual of science, why do our Ulemas oppose science so much? Why our Ulemmas or whole Muslims nations haven't come up with stellar new scientific discoveries over hundreds of years using it as scientific manual.
Dear Brother, it is a book of eternal principles, given and was completely understood at the time of prophet with out any ambiguity. In addition also acted upon in it's entirety. Today we can understand it too. Provided we follow the language principle only, after getting our minds clear of all clutter from our clergy.
Badar
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I agree with you that the Quran has eternal principles. This does not preclude the possibility that at-teen and az-zaitoon can, through their biological nature, provide lessons for man. Don't forget that water is a metaphor for truth and revelation as per 13/17. Just because they're biological entities, this doesn't mean they can't enter the human realm of guidance.
I dont think the Quran is a book of science but citing the ulema position is irrelevant to me. The ulema aren't quranic in my eyes.
What im saying to you is, you're asking me why is God talking about figs and olives and im answering, i may well not know but this doesn't mean our interpretations of the words are wrong. The words must be understood as they were heard, adh-dhikr, memorised throughout the world. And the world memorises it as 'wa at-teen, not waa lateen'.
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Some friend, prefereably some student of Plant Kingdom, may carry out a study about the mention of facts relating to Plant kingdom in the Grand Qur'aan and he may find the major classification and other related facts therein. Guessing things by people who do not know abc of plants may be of no use to many members and visitors of the forum except causing wastage of time.
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Very profound translation Brother Badar. It truly now sounds like the word, likely said in the first place by our Creator, and not what may have become of it by later translators, as we see it today, having no impact on the Ummah or the Ulema.
Is it possible that these two words when written and spoken as in 951 become shamsi and hence La remains silent during pronunciation and recitation. The original root may still be lateen, carrying the profound meaning picked ( and of course, not invented ) by you from Lane, which I have found to be a miracle in itself, preserved by God, so world can get back to the right understanding of the message of our Creator and get back to the path of our Prophets, as desired by our Creator for all humanity.
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Dear kn, since you seem interested in Language of the message and understanding of message via this means, over tradition. I will give the explanation for my exploration of Rosetta Stone of Quranic script.
It would be easier for you to understand in reverse order. I will use traditional translation, for comparison only without implying any disrespect to others work or believes.
952 Last word is now in traditional understanding is called "Sinai" and previous word as "and the mount".
Now the word is given under meaning as ?certain trees?. Please see link,
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000211.pdfSo if means certain trees. The word could not mean a mount either. Please look up under root in Lane, it also implies condition, state, habit.
Once 952 is cleared as ?And a state and condition like a certain tree? or to be more accurate ?And a state and condition like certain trees?.
With this understanding now let us look at. 951 . now traditionally this verse is translated as ?By the Fig and the Olive? now it does not appear rationale to swear by trees or fruit to say afterwards ?And a state and condition like certain trees?.
If one were to read zaytooni in Lane. He refers to read Ba-Lam-Siin to comprehend the concept. Here, he describes it to a tree lasting for thousands of years.
Now with this knowledge in mind if one were to look at it becomes apparent that it not just ?wa al tteeni? but it should be ?wa latteeni? Latteeni a plural from, root Lam-Ta-Ta, hence, a shdaaha on Ta and not due Al in start of Teen.
Hence with this knowledge these two verses are
Surah 95 1
How miserable and weary, are the ones bruised and broken into small particles; and the ones lasting in this state for a very large unspecified number of years.
Surah 95 2
And a state and condition like a certain tree (I have edited from previous understanding to reflect plural of ).
Badar
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Dear abdulquran, you?re among only few, who have critiqued, this in some rationale way. Not just called names. Any critique is important for enhancing knowledge.
I have been thinking about what you have said. In addition, to my spontaneous response. Here is further addition, after some contemplation. The word ?tteeni? has no verbal root. Hence, if one were to accept it as it. This means that we have to accept that it is foreign word. A critique, from lots of Orientals about language of Quran. Which is, Quran contains lots of foreign words. (Please see, "The foreign Vocabulary Of The Quran", by Arthur Jeffery, pp 96). What would you prefer? Tradition of recitation without consideration of meaning and language that it was revealed in, even at the cost of damaged integrity of the message; or to forsake tradition, over reason and logic.
With Peace and Love.
Badar
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Dear Badar , as I understand from above, that if we take fig as the meaning of tteen, in this ayah, then we have to accept that Quran is using here possibly a foreign word, as this word was not used to mean fig in classical arabic. Hence, it cannot be describing fig, and has to be some other meanings, possibly as you are translating, if we accept that Quran is in pure arabic. Moreover as you are suggesting, that if we look at the construction of this word and base the meanings on the grammar rules, then it means something else anyways.
Is it not true for feel also in Surah feel as, feel is a persian word in origin where it means elephant. If Quran is in pure arabic, then feel has to mean somthing else in this surah as well. I have seen your translation at www.servantofthelight.com and on this site as well, giving a totally different meaning of the arabic word feel, which I assume must have been used in Quran rather than a persian word feel, if we believe that this book is in a pure arabic language.Is it possible, that we have been assigning foreign meanings to many words in Quran, and hence having problems in getting to the real meanings? As I see from your previous threads, that this problem of understanding the correct meanings and message can be solved, if we apply the rules of Gezm, Shadda, fetha, Kesra, Dumma and other rules as per arabic grammar rules and lexicons, we could then arrive to correct meanings as they may have been in pure classical arabic at that time. Are you using Lanes and the grammatical rules only, to break down the words and arriving at meanings in arabic in you translations posted here and at the other site, instead of you arriving to traditional meanings accepted for centuries, which may be foriegn meanings incorporated and misunderstood later, and as may have been happening to many words?