Belief in AlQuran

Wakas

I find it is best to let AQ define how it is using its words/concepts. Hence, read what it says about these things.

I also find that when constructing a belief system, it is best to ensure a solid foundation and then build on that. And of course, bringing pre-conceived notions to the table is unlikely to result in a beneficial study.

Pretty much all the tools that are needed to conduct high quality study are available now, it is simply a matter of time/effort/will.

If you prefer to read a book, rather than go through Quranic occurrences, Toshihiko Izutsu is one of the best students of AQ I have read, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16391.msg217929#msg217929

He discusses muslim/kufr/iman in the above book in detail.

Rev_John

Belief..

Some random thought?s i?d like to question/share

Many people are of the opinion lots of people can be ?muslim? (not that i disagree) how are you defining the term muslim?

Another thing, IF the purpose of Quran is a guidance ?ya ayuha allathina aminou? is a common phrase you will see, addressing those who believe so who is that? (the ones that aminou (look at chapter 49 for example) the ?muslims?? the believers of the Quran or what? The guidance seems to implicate commandments however I know people are of the belief Quran isn?t needed.

What?s the point in following it if it?s not needed? If you can be a Muslim without it? Does being muslim give you jannah?

Also the term kafir comes to mind. If a person comes across Quran reads/studies it yet rejects it does that not make them a kafir? Yet what if that person believed in God? Doesn?t that make them a muslim?

Possibly my preconceived notion of muslim is making me think this all sounds like an oxymoron though i always thought a muslim got jannah. However if they reject Quran then that makes them a kaffir? and kufr gets you jahanam as far as i am aware. (See verse 968, )

Who would choose hell? No one.

2109 ? aren?t ahl alkitab believers? Some are mushrikeen but there are believers so if a believer of God is simply a muslim then it's really not much??

Sorry if it sounds disjointed random thoughts going through my head

Comment as you like

Salam.

Just a few questions

Muslim means submitter to God? If that is true then I agree with you that anyone who submits to God is Muslim
If someone lives their life according to the Quran but never reads it, are they wrong?
I do not know what jannah means, but why would it be restricted to Muslims (in the narrower meaning of the word)?
Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?
How can someone who believes in God be an "unbeliever" just because they are in a different religion?

Once again, just a few random thoughts.

nsws1988

Thanks for the link, Waqas. handshake

Ahmad_Bilal

Muslim means submitter to God? If that is true then I agree with you that anyone who submits to God is Muslim
If someone lives their life according to the Quran but never reads it, are they wrong?
I do not know what jannah means, but why would it be restricted to Muslims (in the narrower meaning of the word)?
Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?
How can someone who believes in God be an "unbeliever" just because they are in a different religion?

All very good questions...

Actually, "muslim" simply means one who is peaceful, or one who submits. The concept of God doesn't even occur in this word's usage, and the idea of it specifically referring to the act of submitting to God depends on the context.
I wouldn't think so. The Qur'aan says that the "ahlu al kitaab" (people of the book), which many determine to be the Jews and Nazarenes, can also be viewed as believers. Therefore, if Jew lives according to the Torah, which is also a revelation from God, he shouldn't be found guilty, nor should a Nazarene who lives according to the Torah and Evangel.
Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims".
No. The idea of "kufr" is not based on 'converting to Islaam', it's about accepting God's signs and avoiding idolatry. Therefore, in that sense, 'converting' is not a requirement of anyone, as long as you believe in God, believe in His angels (or controlling forces), believe in His messengers and scriptures, and believe in the judgement.
That's a good question, and I think that depends on how a person perceives God. For example, Trinitarians believe in God, but they are rebuked in the Qur'aan. People who believe that Jesus was 'God Incarnate' believe in God too, but they're also rebuked in the scripture. I think it's important to believe in the complete oneness of God, assigning no partners to Him whatsoever. As long as you do this, I think you'll be okay...

God knows best.

Rev_John

All very good questions...

Actually, "muslim" simply means one who is peaceful, or one who submits. The concept of God doesn't even occur in this word's usage, and the idea of it specifically referring to the act of submitting to God depends on the context.
I wouldn't think so. The Qur'aan says that the "ahlu al kitaab" (people of the book), which many determine to be the Jews and Nazarenes, can also be viewed as believers. Therefore, if Jew lives according to the Torah, which is also a revelation from God, he shouldn't be found guilty, nor should a Nazarene who lives according to the Torah and Evangel.
Jannah simply refers to "paradise", and it's not limited to those who call themselves "Muslims".
No. The idea of "kufr" is not based on 'converting to Islaam', it's about accepting God's signs and avoiding idolatry. Therefore, in that sense, 'converting' is not a requirement of anyone, as long as you believe in God, believe in His angels (or controlling forces), believe in His messengers and scriptures, and believe in the judgement.
That's a good question, and I think that depends on how a person perceives God. For example, Trinitarians believe in God, but they are rebuked in the Qur'aan. People who believe that Jesus was 'God Incarnate' believe in God too, but they're also rebuked in the scripture. I think it's important to believe in the complete oneness of God, assigning no partners to Him whatsoever. As long as you do this, I think you'll be okay...

God knows best.

Thank you for your very good answers. Unfortunately people like me (non-trinitarian Christians) are still branded as "unbelievers" just because of the name "Christian"

Ahmad_Bilal

Thank you for your very good answers. Unfortunately people like me (non-trinitarian Christians) are still branded as "unbelievers" just because of the name "Christian"

Well, that's the problem with traditional Islaam. Nobody can decide who is an "unbeliever" except God. In fact, traditional (orthodox) Muslims would consider those who reject the hadiyths as "kafiroon"/unbelievers, simply because they're beliefs are different.

imfromjakarta

Salamun 'alaikum,

I find it is best to let AQ define how it is using its words/concepts. Hence, read what it says about these things.

I also find that when constructing a belief system, it is best to ensure a solid foundation and then build on that. And of course, bringing pre-conceived notions to the table is unlikely to result in a beneficial study.

Pretty much all the tools that are needed to conduct high quality study are available now, it is simply a matter of time/effort/will.

Thank you Wakas for reminding us. I read again last night all occurence words of muslim and rasul in al-Qur'an.

If you prefer to read a book, rather than go through Quranic occurrences, Toshihiko Izutsu is one of the best students of AQ I have read, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16391.msg217929#msg217929

He discusses muslim/kufr/iman in the above book in detail.

Is it legal to download that book? I mean eversince Im trying my best to follow al-Qur'an, I also try my best not to breach intelectual properties. It means so many CDs that I have to buy to replace my pirated CDs

imfromjakarta

Salamun 'alaikum,

This is the definition of muslim in al-Qur'an

4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.

muslim Who involves Allah in all daily activities and does good works.

this is definition of mukmin in al-Qur'an

28 And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.

mukmin Who believe in Allah and Last Day

they might said that they believe in Allah and Last Day but if they are not working hand in hand with rasul to replace man-made rules with rules from the Books (Taurat, Injil and al-Qur'an), they certainly not a mukmin/believer.

I've been thinking about muslim, mukmin and rasul based on this verse below

4914 The Nomads said We believe. Say You have not believed; but you should say We have submitted, for belief has not yet entered into your hearts. If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

if we continue 28 to several verses below, we will see the connection between mukmin (believers) and rasul (messengers)

QS 3164, QS 459, QS 4136, QS 929, QS 999, QS 3321, QS 5822

Rev_John

Well, that's the problem with traditional Islaam. Nobody can decide who is an "unbeliever" except God. In fact, traditional (orthodox) Muslims would consider those who reject the hadiyths as "kafiroon"/unbelievers, simply because they're beliefs are different.

Not much different from traditional Christianity. We are branded as heretics by them too.

imfromjakarta

Salam Rev.John

Just a few questions

Muslim means submitter to God? If that is true then I agree with you that anyone who submits to God is Muslim

Yeap, that person is not just submits to God but also does good works. I don't think we need to define what is good works. Please read QS 4133

If someone lives their life according to the Quran but never reads it, are they wrong?

It means that they are very smart and intelectual persons.

I do not know what jannah means, but why would it be restricted to Muslims (in the narrower meaning of the word)?

It applies to all people that involves God in all daily activities and does good works, does not matter where they coming from and does not matter what their religions are.

Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?

You can uttering the testimony that you are a muslim there is no god except He - only people with knowledge can said this sentences - by following this verse

318 God bears witness that there is no god except He, as do the angels, and those with knowledge, He is standing with justice. There is no god except He, the Noble, the Wise.

How can someone who believes in God be an "unbeliever" just because they are in a different religion?

Once again, just a few random thoughts.

They do not understand the concept of God as a Manager/Robbi, Owner/Malik and Ruler/Ilah of their lifes and universe.

It means only God can manage, owned and ruler for every nations in this world. We can implement this by replacing man made rules with rules from the Books (Taurat, Injil dan al-Qur'an). We all should be united under the Kingdom of Heaven.

Q_student

Thank you for your very good answers. Unfortunately people like me (non-trinitarian Christians) are still branded as "unbelievers" just because of the name "Christian"

Dear Brother
Being a muslim of Submitter to Allah is never complete unless you believe whatever Allah has sent down for mankind and accept all of teachings in those revelations including prophets ,books ,Malaaika, hereafter.
Simply saying I believe in Allah does not constituite to be submitter. Iblis also believes in Allah. Does it mean that he is a "muslim" ?
Regards

Mazhar

Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?

Grand Qur'aan came and comes into the life of a person at a point in time. Please study it critically and objectively at your own and peep into the heart what is hindering you to pronounce where have you already reached.

Following those people you pronounce the believing in Qur'aan and join the present . The first step for joiing/entering into Islam, in present days. Accepting Qur'aan as the word of your Sustainer Lord, would imply your belief in the Messenger, who delivered it to humanity. Paradise has been prepared only for those who

The Paradise has been prepared for those who believed in Allah and His MessengerS.

This makes one eligible to participate in the "race" towards the Paradise. Eligibility is the first, every thing comes after it.

abdalquran

Dear Brother
Being a muslim of Submitter to Allah is never complete unless you believe whatever Allah has sent down for mankind and accept all of teachings in those revelations including prophets ,books ,Malaaika, hereafter.
Simply saying I believe in Allah does not constituite to be submitter. Iblis also believes in Allah. Does it mean that he is a "muslim" ?
Regards

John, don't worry about this Q_student guy. His views are almost never from the Quran itself. Whatever you call yourself, if you believe in God and goodness (and i've read your site, I know you do), then you're what Quran calls 'mu'min'. I don't mind what you call yourself, Christian or whatever.

abdalquran

Actually, "muslim" simply means one who is peaceful, or one who submits. The concept of God doesn't even occur in this word's usage, and the idea of it specifically referring to the act of submitting to God depends on the context.

This is the KEY to understanding the term islam. I disagree with AB here that it doesn?t always refer to submission to God. I think it ALWAYS refers to the submission to God but not in the same ways. For example, the people of 49/14 submitted to God through allegiance to the prophet.
But yes, Islam is NOT automatically tied with faith. Islam is outward behaviour. The person whose behaviour?s in question may be a munaafiq, one who is outwardly muslim but inwardly against islam. A more relevant term to this discussion is 'mu'min' or even 'muqeen'

I wouldn't think so. The Qur'aan says that the "ahlu al kitaab" (people of the book), which many determine to be the Jews and Nazarenes, can also be viewed as believers. Therefore, if Jew lives according to the Torah, which is also a revelation from God, he shouldn't be found guilty, nor should a Nazarene who lives according to the Torah and Evangel.

No offence to rev john, but the Quran has no reference to torah or evangel. Quran never tells anyone to look towards another source of information. This would contradict its teachings.
This doesn?t mean however the Quran is indispensable.

Mazhar

John, don't worry about this Q_student guy. His views are almost never from the Quran itself. Whatever you call yourself, if you believe in God and goodness (and i've read your site, I know you do), then you're what Quran calls 'mu'min'. I don't mind what you call yourself, Christian or whatever.

It is a conjectural statement, more like whisper and inspiration of Satan. Q.student though not quoted the verses but what he said is from Grand Qur'aan. Read here is a certain, established and proven Kafir and who is an established and provem Mumin.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.150.gif
Indeed those people who refuse to accept Allah and His Messengers;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.150a.gif
and indeed those people who intend that they create a differentiation/partition/rift/slit between Allah and His Messengers
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.150b.gif
and indeed those people who say, "We believe in some of the Messengers and we refuse to accept some" and they intend to adopt a path in between it.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.151.gif
Such are the people who are the established and proven rejecters/non believers.

are recited to them, word by word, each Ayat/verse gave increase to them in belief.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.02.gif
And they have trust and hope in their Sustainer Lord.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.03.gif

Those who maintain/manage/organize/stand for the performance of Ass-sa'laat, and out of the worldly resources, which We have given them as sustenance, they spend .

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif

These defined people are proven and established believers .

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/008.%20Al%20Anfaal.htm

abdalquran

Well, that's the problem with traditional Islaam. Nobody can decide who is an "unbeliever" except God. In fact, traditional (orthodox) Muslims would consider those who reject the hadiyths as "kafiroon"/unbelievers, simply because they're beliefs are different.

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. A whole chapter is dedicated to telling you how to identify unbelievers. Chapter 109 which starts with 'yaa ayyuha al-kafiroon'. You need to identify who kafiroon are.

abdalquran

It is a conjectural statement, more like whisper and inspiration of Satan. Q.student though not quoted the verses but what he said is from Grand Qur'aan. Read here is a certain, established and proven Kafir and who is an established and provem Mumin.

Satan? Oh no!!! I suppose Satan also told us this
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
And this
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Who said anything about rejecting the messenger, since you quoted 4/150? Does the messenger only refer to Muhammad? Does it even refer to HUMAN messengers? Have a look at 42/51, Allah has three ways of communicating with us.

Mazhar

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.062c.gif
Indeed any one; from amongst the people identified/recognized/referenced as believers , and any one from those identified as Jews, and Nisaa'ra and Sai'been;

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.069a.gif
who had accepted belief in Allah and the Last Day; and performed righteous acts

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.062d.gif
for this reason/in consequence for such people shall be their reward from their Sustainer Lord;

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.062e.gif
and upon them is no cause of fear and neither shall they grieve.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.02.A.040.htm

abdalquran

If someone lives their life according to the Quran but never reads it, are they wrong?

If someone read never read the best map to a destination, but walked in that direction, he?ll more than likely find the place. Quran is not indispensable. I study it because I consider it the best guidance and as it unfolds, I?m seeing more and more insights.
No offense for calling Quran ?the best map?. Its just my opinion. Your scholarship of the bible led you to the same conclusions about God so fair dues to that.

Many people (including myself) read the Quran and do not reject it, yet I have not converted to Islam. Am I still a kaffir?

Why on earth would you want to convert to Islam? You need to affect the Arab cultural expression of religiosity. Pray like an arab, eat like an arab, greet like an Arab. Lemme tell ya something John, how you run your ministry, THAT?S how I envision a Quranist movement would be like. Except for the fact you don?t use the Quran. Muslims have got bogged down in these cultural performances.

abdalquran

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.062c.gif
Indeed any one; from amongst the people identified/recognized/referenced as believers , and any one from those identified as Jews, and Nisaa'ra and Sai'been;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.069a.gif
who had accepted belief in Allah and the Last Day; and performed righteous acts

Dude, it doesn?t say ?any one of those identified as jews etc etc. So don?t make stuff up, ok?
Man amana billahi wal yawmil aakhir refers to ANYONE who believe in God and the ?last day?. If it referred to believers, alladhina haadu, nasaraa and sabieen, it would say ?alladhina amana billahi wal yawmil akhir?.