Belief in AlQuran
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Salam Sarah,
Salam jack
Though you know you just kind of proved my point, they don?t need to profess in the belief of ?jinn? to believe in jin
And you just made mine 'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough P
Quranist can claim to follow Quran and represent Quran however at the end of the day it doesn?t matter what you label yourself as you will be accountable for your own actions. None of us are free from error even the best of the best.
Exactly, labels are meaningless, this includes what you say you believe. A label is something on the surface. The quran is much deeper than that.
Well i?m not Ibrahim and in that case I guess i?m screwed.
Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (604). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.
Yo Jack, read that? he got a book! Guess i ain?t so screwed after all.
Baseless assumption. Who said he didn't receive a book? All messengers receive books. He didn't get his views from his book. Unless of course he was using Idiot's Guide to Astronomy as his furqan.
Why believe in Quran if you don?t need it, why follow it? Gotta better guide, do share?
Faulty logic just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message. Check out 3434 "We reject the message/R-S-L you are sent with."
So belief in God and going good is enough, that gets jannah apparently? right? By what logic? Who says that is the case? Was it the Quran?
Why should i put effort into doing good as how Quran states if it has no avail? If just believing in God and doing good is good enough? Your implication is studying Quran isn?t worth your time because you can get the same reward simply be believing in God, doing good and contemplating about the universe.
I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing mumineen vs. muslimeen.
So maybe you don?t need a guide but if you have one you?re better off, are you not? If you believe in it and you don?t follow it, what does it make you? Why not follow Quran? Why uphold Quran if you don?t need it?
First of all, you don't NEED to do anything. See above.
Alhaqq is in a lot of things. The ultimate haqq is Allah (2262 ) and i believe this haqq is shared with us in AlQuran read 2176.
if you don?t believe that Quran is haqq then i don?t know why people bother following it.
Al quran contains al haqq, no one is denying that. Al quran is not al haqq itself, that would make it God itself. God's attributes are not limited to anything. He's 'everywhere'.
If we read the Quran and study it and reject it or don?t follow it, what does it make us?
If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 1099). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 262.
Or maybe i can argue if God knew we didn?t need the Quran God wouldn?t have sent it.
I await such an argument.
To me belief in Quran is important. Probably i?m biased because of my background though others would say i'm a rebel.. i don?t know where life would have taken me otherwise. back to Ibrahim, i guess he followed the Quranic message without it, can many do that? I have no idea.
Don't forget he is an imam to mankind 2124.
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Jack
And you just made mine 'they don't need to profess belief in the quran to believe in the quran'. Took long enough P
Haha funny, i disagree. All the prophets preached the same concept message yet Quran is more specific than Believe in God and do good. So no, even people who dont profess their belief in Quran it doesnt necessarily mean they follow it just because they adhere to some concepts of it.
Nice try. He's an imam for an-nas. So, we should certainly be following in his footsteps (604). He looked at the heavens, and asked questions. That's how he figured out God. He used logic. He didn't read it in a book.
Im not disregarding Ibrahims footsteps.
Faulty logic just because someone doesn't use al quran as a guide, doesn't mean a) there a better one b) they are using another guide. You can get to places without a map. You don't NEED a map to get to jannah. For some/many it helps, but others can reach the destination without a map. The quran is a guide, plain and simple. When you believe in the quran, you believe in its guidance, which is again its message.
Bad example, when you want to reach a destination and you dont know where it is or where you are, you are bound to follow some sort of direction/guide i.e. road/street signs. Its a guide not the greatest compared to having a gps or a street directory. You follow the message through other signs. You need some guidance you dont have knowledge of the unseen.
I suggest reading progressive1993's post detailing mumineen vs. muslimeen.
Basically youre all saying someone who follows/adheres to Quran is a mumin and this is a better level.
If you reject its truthfulness (whatever that is), that would make us kafir. But, you don't HAVE to follow it (again 1099). BTW, the God didn't forget to put the quran as a qualifier for jannah in 262.
Youre not making any sense. You would be a kafir if you reject its truthfulness. What if you reject following it? Same thing? If you reject it, it makes you a kafir/fasiq hence the importance of following it. 1099 doesnt mention you dont have to follow it. If God willed he could have made us all mumineen and do we hate those who are not mumineen? im not hating anyone but it dont make sense to me to read study Quran and then say i choose not to follow it even though i believe in it. As ive said before inevitably my actions are mine and theyre to my benefit or disadvantage. my ultimate return is to my lord so all that really matters is my actions. 262 doesnt mention jannah.
I await such an argument.
How about we look at why the book was revealed?
4105 We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by Allah. so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
4174 O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
692 And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers.
6155 And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
299 We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.There are other verses though overall conclusion its a guide for us to bring us closer to God. If people dont wanna be closer to God thats their choice/problem.
Salam
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Belief..
Some random thought?s i?d like to question/share
Many people are of the opinion lots of people can be ?muslim? (not that i disagree) how are you defining the term muslim?
Another thing, IF the purpose of Quran is a guidance ?ya ayuha allathina aminou? is a common phrase you will see, addressing those who believe so who is that? (the ones that aminou (look at chapter 49 for example) the ?muslims?? the believers of the Quran or what? The guidance seems to implicate commandments however I know people are of the belief Quran isn?t needed.
What?s the point in following it if it?s not needed? If you can be a Muslim without it? Does being muslim give you jannah?
Also the term kafir comes to mind. If a person comes across Quran reads/studies it yet rejects it does that not make them a kafir? Yet what if that person believed in God? Doesn?t that make them a muslim?
Possibly my preconceived notion of muslim is making me think this all sounds like an oxymoron though i always thought a muslim got jannah. However if they reject Quran then that makes them a kaffir? and kufr gets you jahanam as far as i am aware. (See verse 968, )
Who would choose hell? No one.
2109 ? aren?t ahl alkitab believers? Some are mushrikeen but there are believers so if a believer of God is simply a muslim then it's really not much??
Sorry if it sounds disjointed random thoughts going through my head
Comment as you like
Salam.
Many Muslims today read the Quran but don't know what it says and don't care. Would that make them believers in the Quran?
There are many signs of God that people believe in God. The issue here is religion often becomes an identity and tradition and peopl follow it for that reason. The Quran says guidance is from God and many people believed in God before any scriptures came or saw any miracles. And many have had the miracles shown to them and scritures handed to them but did not not.
Anyone who believes in God and believes in some sort of an after life is a believer. Thats my take on it.
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Interesting thought about haqq
Read from 6940- 52 or 6948 ? 52.
What do you think the implication of haqq is here? Do you think it alludes to Quran?
(6951)
? 6951 (Asad) for, verily, it is truth absolute!
salam,
Let's extend to the whole Sura 69, 'cos it begins with AlHaaqqah (H-q-q). At first i thought the "hu" (he/it) might refer to "AlHaaqqah" itself or the entire sura... but AlHaaqqah is feminine, unlike what the "hu" suggests... So we get back to the verse 40 Innahu laqawlu rasuwlin kariymin. Further in 6943 tanziylun min rabbi 'l`aalamiyna.
6948 And surely it is indeed a reminder to the pious.
6950 And surely it is indeed a regret to the disbelievers.Haqq 'lyaqiyn ~ words of noble messenger ~ sent down from Rabbi'l`aalamiyn ~ reminder to the muttaqiyn ~ regret to the kaafiriyn
so i think Haqq 'lyaqiyn ~ AQ does make sense
Related to prev. discussions, then some people (who are muttaqiyn) can have Haqq 'lyaqiyn before death (as the word "tad.kirah/reminder" suggests).
Following the word "Hasrah/regret", people can regret before death too (3156, 836), but some people may only fully realize their regret after "the Hour" (641). "Day of Regret" (1939) is also notable.So remind/remember now or regret later...
Thanks for the pointer, it's interesting
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Many Muslims today read the Quran but don't know what it says and don't care. Would that make them believers in the Quran?
You answered your own question ?don?t know what it says and don?t care?
There are many signs of God that people believe in God. The issue here is religion often becomes an identity and tradition and peopl follow it for that reason. The Quran says guidance is from God and many people believed in God before any scriptures came or saw any miracles. And many have had the miracles shown to them and scritures handed to them but did not not.
Yep some people believed in God without scripture, others with scriptures rejected. Today most people?s origins relates to some creed. Most people have an idea of God, deism seem to be a new common thing..
Anyone who believes in God and believes in some sort of an after life is a believer. Thats my take on it.
Interesting take, but i?m looking at it Quranically. For example a believer translates as? In your ideology if it?s Quranic? It seems to somewhat support the identity of ?muslim?
You might find these previous posts interesting
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599284.msg233562#msg233562http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599284.msg227419#msg227419
San,
Np I think it does refer to AQ. Though then it implicates those who reject the haqq will be regretful.. so those who reject AQ?
Salam
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Peace Wakas, all,
True. Difficult, but not impossible. Like most things, one can train oneself to be better at it. My favourite online course on critical thinking
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http/www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.html
(click through each lesson)That's a very good online course on critical thinking, in my opinion. Thanks for sharing.
In addition to learning/studying critical thinking, I recommend learning about the Scientific method. Because I think that the scientific method can improve ones critical thinking ability. My favourite guide to the scientific method is this one
http//scientificmethod.com/index2.html
http//scientificmethod.com/b_index.html
Also, to improve ones critical thinking ability, I recommend learning about cognitive biases. See this link
http//m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=68705
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salaam
i haven't been on this forum board in quite sometime but the answer to your questions are in surah 2 al baqarah, simply read it slowly an analyze what the story is , ex of the people their are some who say we believe but they do not believe.
the rest of the surah goes on to give examples and identify those people.
i never read into it just over it because of it's length... but read into it without the goal of finishing it or any number of ayat even just one ayat like a book you don't want to end and visaulize it as you read to make it more vivid to you intellect. you'll see what i mean .
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Peace Wakas,
Good/nice analogy.
I think one of the biggest secrets to improving ones critical thinking skills is to discard/abandon things one has learned in the past, in order to get an empty mind. As the saying goes, "Only an empty bowl can be filled."
Also, I think one can improve ones critical thinking skills by increasing ones knowledge about different things. The Quran seems to suggest that reasoning-abilities are related to ones level of knowledge.
Quran 2943
Such are the examples We cite for the people, but none reason except the knowledgeable.
