The why and how of the bond mentioned in the reading

Wakas

peace z,

-It is group act which call for speach

(yes, it calls for something auditory/visible/tangible)

-a group to stay at the back of other group which implicate the issue of direction.

(could imply requires concentration and/or facing a speaker, not necessarily a specific direction being the main point)

-the question of prostration which seems must be noticed.

(yes, it must be a actionable/tangible thing, this has been discussed in significant detail in the forum)

brackets are my comments.

zubairus

Peace brother wakas

Peace
4101 And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you
shorten from the bond, if you fear that the rejecters will try you.
The rejecters are to you a clear enemy.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the bond for them, then
let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring
their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be
behind you; and let a group who has not yet bonded come and
bond with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their
weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect
your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow.
There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you
are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has
prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
4103 So, when you have completed the bond, then remember God
while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are
relieved, then hold the bond. Indeed, the bond for the believers is
a timed schedule
A

Look into this please. ....... let them be behind you., facing the same direction with you or the opposite? I will opt for the latter. What do you think?

Sorry for bothering you on an issue already discussed.Could you please share with me in a clear term your own understanding of how the said prostration is accomplished and what it is meant to serve?

Regarding the first issue i e the bond itself, we shall come to it later

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS

Wakas

peace,

Look into this please. ....... let them be behind you., facing the same direction with you or the opposite? I will opt for the latter. What do you think?

Sorry for bothering you on an issue already discussed.Could you please share with me in a clear term your own understanding of how the said prostration is accomplished and what it is meant to serve?

ZUBAIRUS

Well, firstly, I do not regard SJD to mean physical prostration, but we can leave this issue aside as we discuss the possible directional element in the verse.

From the usage of WRY in this form in AQ, it can mean either "beyond/after/behind". Please see PRL. The following is from M Asad's translation

Muhammad Asad - End Note 130 (4102)
Lit., "when they have prostrated themselves, let them be behind you". This idiomatic expression is not to be taken literally in classical Arabic usage, the phrase kana min wara'ika (lit., "he was behind thee&quot signifies "he protected thee" or (in military parlance) "he covered thee", and is not meant to describe the physical relative position of the two persons or groups.

Now, if still a problem, let us consider the possible directional element possibilities. Please list them and then we can go through them.

zubairus

Peace brother wakas

Peace
4101 And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you
shorten from the bond, if you fear that the rejecters will try you.
The rejecters are to you a clear enemy.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the bond for them, then
let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring
their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be
behind you; and let a group who has not yet bonded come and
bond with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their
weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect
your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow.
There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you
are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has
prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
4103 So, when you have completed the bond, then remember God
while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are
relieved, then hold the bond. Indeed, the bond for the believers is
a timed schedule

Actually for now, I am interested in your understanding/interpretation not that of Ahmad, Sorry I do not mean to hurt you.

I will opt for behind. My thinking is this, the people for whom he establish the bond are standing with him facing a direction. Hence, the need for the other group to go behind taking care of the opposit direction. Remember, security is at stake.
Do you think otherwise?

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS

Wakas

peace zubairus,

My point of highlighting what M.Asad said was to show taking it literally is not the only option, thus any directional implication disappears.

So, let us be clear, your observation/question is based on only one theoretical possibility, not the only possibility.

As I said to you "if still a problem, let us consider the possible directional element possibilities. Please list them and then we can go through them.".

I was expecting a list of the theoretical possibilities, but in any case, let us analyse

I will opt for behind. My thinking is this, the people for whom he establish the bond are standing with him facing a direction. Hence, the need for the other group to go behind taking care of the opposit direction.

And what is entailed in upholding this bond, in relation to concentration/senses/etc?

Please consider the consequences of the above in relation to

Remember, security is at stake.

Then let me know your thoughts.

brook

Salaam. I don't know Arabic, so I cannot be sure that I understand 4101-102 correctly.

101

And when you go forth (to war) on earth,
you will incur no sin by doing without your prayers,
if you fear that those who deny the truth will attack you,
for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes.

102

And when tou art among them
and about to lead them in prayer,
let (only) part of them stand up with thee,

My questions

(1)Does 102 prove that the Prophet is not with the believers who go forth (to war) on earth in 101?
(2)Who are them mentioned in 102, the believers or those who deny the truth?

Will you please explicate, supplying proof.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

zubairus

Peace brother Wakas,

Among the possible possibilities is what I have mentioned which actually is my understanding at the moment. If you think otherwise, please explain to me your line of thinking.

Remember security is at stake
. What I meant was that the arrangement was necessitated by their security at the time of upholding the bond.

And by this arrangement, the group upholding the bond can maintain a level of concentration.

What do you think?

ZUBAIRUS

Wakas

peace zubairus,

My point is that the bond requires one to pay attention, concentrate etc, so what this means is for those upholding it and the person leading it (in this case), will ALL be paying attention and concentrating, or are meant to be.... so in terms of them being able to lookout for enemy is illogical.

So, IF you agree with the above, what are the consequences for your view? i.e. is it possible it literally means behind them only?

Hence, the need for the other group to go behind taking care of the opposit direction.

Please consider, then let me know.

Wakas

peace Hasan,

There is some debate over who is addressed in 4102, however EVERY person I have read (minority view) who has suggested it is kafireen who are being addressed have failed to apply logic, and thus end up with an erroneous answer.

brook

Thank you for the anwer, Wakas. That has been a great help for me. Will a native speaker of Arabic please explain whether the Prophet was not with the believers who went forth (to war) on earth in 101? Is 102 proof enough?

Peace,
Hasan

zubairus

Peace brother Wakas,

Let us be explicit please.The issue at stake now is the direction element.

My understanding is this

The one leading and the group with him are facing a direction.
The other group are behind taking care of the opposit direction.
This arrangement permits a level of concentration.

Correct my understanding and present yours. Be explicit please.

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS.

Wakas

peace zubairus,

My point is that the bond requires one to pay attention, concentrate etc, so what this means is for those upholding it and the person leading it (in this case), will ALL be paying attention and concentrating, or are meant to be.... so in terms of them being able to lookout for enemy is illogical.

So, IF you agree with the above, what are the consequences for your view? i.e. is it possible it literally means behind them only?

By your response, I am assuming you disagree with the above?

zubairus

Peace brother wakas,

I will request if you do not mind, we look at the issue as a whole . I guess that is better.

Could you please explain for me your understanding of why and how of the said bond.

For the sake of simplicity, consider me someone who has just embraced Islam and seek for such explanation.

I will appreciate the gesture.

ZUBAIRUS.

Wakas

peace zubairus,

But the why and how is not necessary. If you agree that the bond (whatever it is) requires one to concentrate, pay attention etc then it is illogical to have these same people look out in a certain direction for enemy etc.

Do you agree or disagree?

zubairus

Peace brother wakas

Peace
4101 And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you
shorten from the bond, if you fear that the rejecters will try you.The rejecters are to you a clear enemy.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the bond for them, then
let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring
their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be
behind you; and let a group who has not yet bonded come and
bond with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their
weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect
your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow.
There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you
are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has
prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
4103 So, when you have completed the bond, then remember God
while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are
relieved, then hold the bond. Indeed, the bond for the believers is
a timed schedule

I have never contested the need for concentration. But the fact remains that based on the above verse, security taken into consideration, an arrangement was necessitated.They were even allowed to shorten from the bond.They were allowed to carry their weapons. The level of concentration obtainable at this time may not be as high compared to a normal time.

Generally, a person is more aware of his front than his back. We can easily respond to a danger in front of us. In another way, we can easily be caught unaware from behind.
These has been the baeses of my thinking.

peace zubairus,

But the why and how is not necessary. If you agree that the bond (whatever it is) requires one to concentrate, pay attention etc then it is illogical to have these same people look out in a certain direction for enemy etc.

Do you agree or disagree?

Actually in our life, the best approach to issues is to ask why of a thing, then how of it.I want to beleive the act-bond is something you as a person does not as an act of ritual but for a purpose in your life and in a certain way.

These I request you share with me. Possible it might settle every thing.

The gesture will be appreciated.

Peace

ZUBAIRUS.

Wakas

peace zubairus,

My understanding of slw (root of "salat&quot can be found here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

The regular/timed bond/salat for the mumineen is reading/reflection/oration of Quran. This requires concentration, paying attention etc as can be seen from many of the verses that discuss the regular/timed "salat", thus I am of the view that to make those undertaking salat to be lookouts for enemy is illogical, thus there is no, as you say, them looking out one direction, others looking out another direction. As M.Asad points out, the expression used has no directional element.

When someone is reading a passage to others however, it is common, for the audience to be facing that person.

Bringing their weapons with them is useful if they are attacked, simple.

zubairus

Peace brother wakas

Thanks for the gesture-the response. But you did not as I requested explaine for me how you as a person uphold the bond. I have gone through the link you referenced.

Now am I right to infer that whenever a person, a mumin, takes the message, read from it,contemplate over it and accept what is said, he/she has upheld the bond ?
I really need to get the issue clear.

I have used the word accept instead of submit to get the picture of the issue clear but stand to be corrected.

For the purposeof clarification, I never meant that those upholding the bond are facing a direction in order to look out for the enemy. Definitly they are facing either directions or a direction but I opted for a direction.

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS.

Wakas

peace zubairus,

But you did not as I requested explaine for me how you as a person uphold the bond. I have gone through the link you referenced.

Now am I right to infer that whenever a person, a mumin, takes the message, read from it,contemplate over it and accept what is said, he/she has upheld the bond ?
I really need to get the issue clear.

I didn't realise you were asking how I personally uphold the bond, I thought we were discussing the possible directional element in this verse!

You missed about the preparation part, e.g. 56/443, but basically what you said for the regular/timed salat/bond is my understanding, for the mumineen.

zubairus

Peace brother wakas.

Sorry, I took for granted the preparation part.

Now what happen when a mumeen read from the message and he is unable to comprehend what is said uptill the time he stops? I s the said bond upheld?

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace brother wakas.

Sorry, I took for granted the preparation part.

Now what happen when a mumeen read from the message and he is unable to comprehend what is said uptill the time he stops? I s the said bond upheld?

Peace.

ZUBAIRUS

443 O you who have assurance/trust (ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo), do not come near the bond while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying...