A CHECK AND BALANCE: PURNISHMENT NOT EXCEED THE CRIME
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peace
The correct understanding of the verse not only matches the live
example given in the Scripture, but it also comes in-line with the other
checks and balances that God has given such as the punishment not
exceeding the crime (16126).The above was taken from the message under the subheading look to the examples in the Qur'an.
In line with the understanding I seek to know. Is 100 lashes =,<,>[equall,less than or greater than the act of fornication?
Looking fotward to seeing clarification
peace
zubairus
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fornication as proven by 4 witnesses.
What does that suggest to you?
Group sex?
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fornication as proven by 4 witnesses.
What does that suggest to you?
Group sex?
exactly, 4 witnesses mean 4 sex partners....
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Peace,
I realised I need to make my request clearer. When going through the message, I came to the outlined guidlines that could help one in studying the reading.
Therein, under the subheading look to the examples, there was point raised that purnishment is not to exceed the crime committed.It is on that basis I seek to know whether or not 100 lashes is less than, greater than or equall to the act of fornication.
For further illustration, below is the part of the message referred to- LOOK TO EXAMPLES IN THE QUR?AN
Once a meaning is derived, the final accuracy test is to compare such a
meaning to the stories related in the Scripture if such a story can be found.
The reason being is that the stories related in the Scripture are ?live?
examples for us to learn from and compare situations.
?We tell to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you
in this Reading; and before it you were of those who were unaware.?
(Qur?an 123)
One of the clearest examples for using this method is to deal with the
issue of ?theft?.
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off (Iqta)
his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for
their crime and Allah is Exalted in power. (Qur?an 53
If we had based our opinion solely on verse 538 as shown above, then
our understanding would be that the hands of thieves are to be severed
completely. If this is indeed what God has commanded, then we have no
option but to hear and obey.
However, in this particular case, we find that a small check against the real
life example given in the Scripture of Joseph and his brothers and how they
dealt with the issue of theft leads us to a completely different conclusion
?They said ?By God, you know we have not come to cause corruption
in the land, and we are not thieves!? They said ?What shall be the
punishment, if you are not truthful?? They said ?The punishment is that
he in whose saddlebag it is found will himself serve as the punishment. It is
so that we punish the wicked.?? (Qur?an 1273-75)
The law of God that Joseph applied against his brother in the matter
of theft did not lead to any amputation of the hand or any other mindless
act of violence. It did, however, lead to the brother being made to remain
behind and work as a penalty against that which he was accused of stealing.
Looking back at verse 538 with the correct translation we see a
completely different understanding from that found by Yusuf Ali
?As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their
resources?as a penalty for what they have earned?to be made an
XVexample of from God. God is Noble, Wise.? (Qur?an 53
The correct understanding of the verse not only matches the live
example given in the Scripture, but it also comes in-line with the other
checks and balances that God has given such as the punishment not
exceeding the crime (16126)..
peace.
ZUBAIRUS
- LOOK TO EXAMPLES IN THE QUR?AN
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.039.gif
And the identified/convicted he-thief and she-thief, for reason of they being established guilty you people/society/Government restrain the hands of both two in the manner of handcuffing as a punishment from their Sustainer Lord for what the two earned,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.038.gif
And Allah is Dominant, The Wise .
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.039a.gif
Therefore the one who returned repenting after his wrong-doing/excessiveness and he perfected himself/his conduct
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.039b.gif
then indeed Allah will turn to him mercifully forgiving.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.173d.gif
Indeed Allah is repeatedly Forgiving/Overlooking and the Merciful. -
peace z,
You say "fornication", I say "fornication as proven by 4 witnesses".
Questions 1 and 2 are not identical
- fornication = 100 lashes
- fornication as proven by 4 witnesses = 100 lashes
If you feel they are the same, then that is up to you.
The lady held guilty of consented ilicit sexual intercourse and the man held guilty of consented ilicit sexual intercourse , Fa describes the cause and effect, for having been adjudged guilty on production of four eye witnesses, you flog each two of them 100 times, the object of flogging being restricted to the skin .
Physical punishment here is not that big. Actual punishment is this
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Peace brother Wakas
peace z,
You say "fornication", I say "fornication as proven by 4 witnesses".
Questions 1 and 2 are not identical
- fornication = 100 lashes
- fornication as proven by 4 witnesses = 100 lashes
If you feel they are the same, then that is up to you.
Accepted, fornication as proven by 4 witnesses= 100 lashes
I ask, what is the basis of valuation,what is the yard stick of measurement, what is our prove?
Think about it.
ZUBAIRUS
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peace zubairus,
yardstick is of course AQ for those following it, and our logic/reason/heart/etc.
Two points in brief
I have often thought it would be an interesting study to list the punishments/expiations in AQ, in order from most severe to least severe, as this would give us an idea of what the author of AQ regards as bigger crimes, lesser crimes etc. As far as I'm aware, such a study has not been done.
I briefly commented on the lashes punishment in this thread, which you may find interesting
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597946.0NB AQ = al quran
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peace zubairus,
Well, in addition to what I have said...
In terms of concluding some sort of universally agreed upon concrete equivalence, it is impossible, and that is probably why AQ gives us the scale, and we have been given our reason/heart/mind, to guide us.
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Pece brother wakas,
In a very simple term, it is not possible we quantify an act of fornication witnessed by 4 to equate it with 100 lashes. Right?In the same light we can not quantify the act of stealing, the act of amputation to equate them, thereby asserting that one is greater than the other.
And just like Allah did not mention amputation in the case of yusuf, he did mention cutting from his resource as the punishment.
Furthermore, is there not the possibility that the specific sharrier at the time of yusuf is not necessary the sharier at this time?
If my line of thinking is valid, you may have to review your application of the verse - 16126.
THINK ABOUT IT.
Peace.
ZUBAIRUS
peace zubairus,
Well, in addition to what I have said...
In terms of concluding some sort of universally agreed upon concrete equivalence, it is impossible, and that is probably why AQ gives us the scale, and we have been given our reason/heart/mind, to guide us.
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peace zubairus,
I think of it like this, the concept or guideline is equivalence. We must be mindful of this when serving justice.
In application, it is perhaps impossible to be equivalent in terms of crime/punishment/expiation, that is why AQ does not mean literally.
In such situations, I often find it helpful to consider the alternatives, and in this case, the literal application of equivalence leads to nonsense/injustice/illogical/improper conduct etc.
