For the many who die without wills
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The Quran gives daughters half the inheritance of sons & widows half a widower's inheritance etc, however while many Muslims try to justify this by saying that this is because men are financially responsible for the family,others say that this is only when men die without leaving a will.
These are the verses
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YUSUFALI Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.
PICKTHAL Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR Allah enjoins you concerning your children The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.004.012
YUSUFALI In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they may have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother or a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is Knower, Indulgent.
SHAKIR And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.However, the point is that
- Not everyone has male children, especially as huge population is threatening economic development in many Islamic nations & so many nations have population planning policies & some Muslim nations already have low birthrates.
Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon, Iran etc already have fewer than two kids per woman, my birthplace Iran has only 1.71 children per woman-so many of these kids are only children or one of two daughters. Quran says that if there's one daughter, she gets a half, if two, then they get two third. But people won't like to leave their daughters so little & give the rest to other relations.Also, they'd prefer that their daughters look after them in old age than say their nephews.
Similarly in case of widows, in many nations a significant % of women outearn their husbands, for eg in USA nearly one third of all women earn more than their husbands, why should they have only an 8th share of their husbands' property while husbands have a 4th?
- Not everyone dies in old age knowing death is approaching, people might die in accidents too, so they're unable to leave wills. A father with a single female child, or two daughters who dies in a motor accident at 45 won't have a will & won't be able to bequeathe all he wanted to his daughters.
So what to do in these cases?
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I'm really waiting for answers to this one.
I think that this is an extremely important & pertinent issue in today's times, where the number of children being fewer in all societies including most Muslim ones, many parents have no sons, they'd like to bequeathe equal property to their daughters & in case of no sons, they'd like to pass on all their property to their daughters, rather than half or two third. Also, with so many women outearning their husbands, why should a widower inherit twice what a widow does?
And what about all the situations where people die in accidents without leaving wills? -
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11569.0
if you were really interested in learning , you'd at least make a search for old threads where things have already been discussed, and then bring up your own points, that point to the Quran, of course, and not the peculiar things some backward 'muslim' people do.
No offence to you if you didn't know about the search function for pulling up old threads, I didn't know at first either. It might make more sense for you to add to those threads then bring up new ones and rehash old arguments.
Please do that if you want any proper discussion. Some old threads have gems that have been buried for too long.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11569.0
if you were really interested in learning , you'd at least make a search for old threads where things have already been discussed, and then bring up your own points, that point to the Quran, of course, and not the peculiar things some backward 'muslim' people do.
No offence to you if you didn't know about the search function for pulling up old threads, I didn't know at first either. It might make more sense for you to add to those threads then bring up new ones and rehash old arguments.
Please do that if you want any proper discussion. Some old threads have gems that have been buried for too long.
I read that thread Sarah, the problem is that it doesn't again deal with men who die without wills, & men who don't live upto old ages & die in accidents or other tragedies don't leave wills.
Islamic laws apply then. Its not "backward" Muslim folks doing such things, the Quran is explicitly teaching such things.
Quran doesn't tell us that Allah gave permission for that law to only be applied in 7th century Arabia, that law is supposedly for all people who die without wills.
You seem to want to explain everything away as something "backward" Muslims do, even if that has explicit Quranic sanction.
If Islam is really made by the Creator, it would have such a proviso saying that this discrimination is limited to people not making wills in 7th century Arabia, not to other gender equal societies or to changes in modernity, surely the Creator can see past, present & future?
That fact that Allah has made a law applicable to a particular society, with explicit instructions & not made provisions for modernity shows how men make these laws, not the Creator.
Similar to Allah's ignorance about the pernicious effects of cousin marriages, which unfortunately isn't only limited to South Asian Muslims but to Arab, Iranian, Turkish etc Muslims too-a simple discouragement from Allah, like a simple explanation from Allah about women's inheritance being time bound would have immensely helped matters.
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Quran doesn't tell us that Allah gave permission for that law to only be applied in 7th century Arabia, that law is supposedly for all people who die without wills.
You seem to want to explain everything away as something "backward" Muslims do, even if that has explicit Quranic sanction.
If Islam is really made by the Creator, it would have such a proviso saying that this discrimination is limited to people not making wills in 7th century Arabia, not to other gender equal societies or to changes in modernity, surely the Creator can see past, present & future?
so in your opinion, a religious book has to have provisions for the future, even if it is revealed in the past? btw, how do you know which verses apply for all time and which for specific times? There are verses in the Quran that are clearly meant for the Prophet for that time, they are not relevant for us now. Couldn't the same be said about the inheritance laws, which, btw, unlike most rules that are based on principles, and are meant for all time, is extremely specific?
In my opinion that suggests that it is time dependent, whether you think or not, is your choice.
There is no good reason for us to think about the Quran in context and try to figure out what applies in the here and now and what doesn't
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Similar to Allah's ignorance about the pernicious effects of cousin marriages, which unfortunately isn't only limited to South Asian Muslims but to Arab, Iranian, Turkish etc Muslims too-a simple discouragement from Allah, like a simple explanation from Allah about women's inheritance being time bound would have immensely helped matters. D
i guess it might have? but how is it a necessary condition?
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If Islam is really made by the Creator, it would have such a proviso saying that this discrimination is limited to people not making wills in 7th century Arabia, not to other gender equal societies or to changes in modernity, surely the Creator can see past, present & future?
and this has to be written in the book? what needs to be done in the future? how does that leave room for a changing reinterpretation of the Quran that is relevant to each time?
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this is an assumption you are making.
Really? Read the laws again. Read how much inheritance is promised in the verses, then read any nation's Constitution regarding inheritance laws & compare. The Quran is as clearly worded as any constitution.
You can apply this ambiguity to verses regarding modest clothing & explain away the hijab & niqab, as "modesty" is a subjective concept. However, inheritance laws are plain numbers.
Man gets share of two females, widow gets half from her widower, compared to what he'd get from her, there's no scope for ambiguity.
I can explain modesty as everything from a niqabi woman to a woman wearing shorts & a t shirt, however, I can't decide that 2+2 = 5, the sheer nature of mathematics & explicitly stated mathematics doesn't leave room for re interpretation.
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Really? Read the laws again. Read how much inheritance is promised in the verses, then read any nation's Constitution regarding inheritance laws & compare. The Quran is as clearly worded as any constitution.
did you know that constitutions are often amended? Just look at the US
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I can explain modesty as everything from a niqabi woman to a woman wearing shorts & a t shirt, however, I can't decide that 2+2 = 5, the sheer nature of mathematics & explicitly stated mathematics doesn't leave room for re interpretation.
why not? why do you think the numbers are binding?
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Really? Read the laws again. Read how much inheritance is promised in the verses, then read any nation's Constitution regarding inheritance laws & compare. The Quran is as clearly worded as any constitution.
You can apply this ambiguity to verses regarding modest clothing & explain away the hijab & niqab, as "modesty" is a subjective concept. However, inheritance laws are plain numbers.
Man gets share of two females, widow gets half from her widower, compared to what he'd get from her, there's no scope for ambiguity.
I can explain modesty as everything from a niqabi woman to a woman wearing shorts & a t shirt, however, I can't decide that 2+2 = 5, the sheer nature of mathematics & explicitly stated mathematics doesn't leave room for re interpretation.
let me rephrase what I said, if you think that Quranism is about strict adherence to each and every rule, regardless of relevance in today's world, that's upto you. You can't say that a reasoned, and perhaps selective application of rules, based on relevance, is wrong.
That's all I have to say on this topic.
I am done with this. I intend to ask questions on this and other verses on some later date, about relevance to today's world, and I think it's good to bear in mind 37
Peace
Sarah
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so in your opinion, a religious book has to have provisions for the future, even if it is revealed in the past? btw, how do you know which verses apply for all time and which for specific times? There are verses in the Quran that are clearly meant for the Prophet for that time, they are not relevant for us now. Couldn't the same be said about the inheritance laws, which, btw, unlike most rules that are based on principles, and are meant for all time, is extremely specific?
Yes, in my opinion, a religious book, which "claims" to come from God,( unlike something like Buddhism which Buddha says is his own understanding & asks his disciples not to blindly follow him) has to make provisions not only for the future, it has to explicitly say that it can & should be amended & bulks of it discarded as time passes. Not only for the future, but also for different societies, like for matrilineal & bilateral inheritance societies of that time.
A Creator is supposed to know the past, present & future right? He or She is also supposed to know that different societies are different & there are societies with matrilineal & bilateral laws, so if the Quran claims to be for all places & all times, it has to possess this foresight.
Otherwise, everyone & anyone can pen a holy book, claiming that this is from the Creator, complete with some absurd stories, some eternally valid morals & some laws of the time, & claim that they're from God & become a Prophet.
btw, how do you know which verses apply for all time and which for specific times? There are verses in the Quran that are clearly meant for the Prophet for that time, they are not relevant for us now. Couldn't the same be said about the inheritance laws, which, btw, unlike most rules that are based on principles, and are meant for all time, is extremely specific??
Inheritance rules aren't based only on principles, they give explicit numbers, half, one fourth, one eighth etc. Nowhere is there a caveat that this is specific to any time, Allah hasn't said this.
In cases of verses addressing Muhammad, the verses say so, like telling Muhammad's wives to obey, not be lewd,letting him marry his adopted son's wife etc, then threatening them with hellfire or telling him something.
This verse clearly isn't addressed to Muhammad & his family
In my opinion that suggests that it is time dependent, whether you think or not, is your choice.
There is no good reason for us to think about the Quran in context and try to figure out what applies in the here and now and what doesn'tIf you have an opinion Sarah, you need to be able to justify it with facts. "In my opinion" simply isn't good enough.
If you don't want to use the Quran to, in your own words, think,"try to figure out what applies in the here and now and what doesn't" then you might as well apply all the explicit laws like inheritance laws.
Even most nations' Constitutions, which unlike the Quran accept that they're humanly created, have explicit scope for amendment. Quran simply doesn't say that, it only allows us to understand the words to the best of our ability-like if it says daughters get half or a widow gets half, the words are crystal clear, unlike stuff like "modesty" which can be interpreted.
How do you interpret half or 1\4th as? All?
How do you interpret 2+2=4 as? 3? -
let me rephrase what I said, if you think that Quranism is about strict adherence to each and every rule, regardless of relevance in today's world, that's upto you. You can't say that a reasoned, and perhaps selective application of rules, based on relevance, is wrong.
That's all I have to say on this topic.
I am done with this. I intend to ask questions on this and other verses on some later date, about relevance to today's world, and I think it's good to bear in mind 37
Peace
Sarah
Thanks for bringing up 37 Sarah!
This is what it says, from the Free Minds site
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar.
So the Book, namely the Quran has some "firm revelations" which are its essence, others are similar.
Isn't the revelations promising half to a daughter or a widow firm enough?
Re read them, they deal with explicit numbers.
As even that verse says, firm revelations are the essence of the Quran! ;D
Then
"As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And none will remember except the people of understanding."
Next, it says that those "who have a disease in their hearts" will try to follow the similar & "seeking to confuse."
Son's share being twice daughters, & widow's share being twice widower's is firm enough, now modernity is making many Muslims bend these "firm revelations" the "essence" of the book.
Where does this verse tell you that you can change explicit provisions in the Quran for the sake of different times & societies Sarah?
Or is it "a disease in the hearts" of the Quranists? ;D
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Peace
the point is <snip> Not everyone has male children <snip> they'd prefer that their daughters look after them in old age than say their nephews
Everyone does not have male children, or vice versa. I believe females actually outnumber males in this wide world of ours. While you are complaining about people not making wills before they die, you still are talking about living people in their old age. It is a responsibility they have failed to uphold if they reckon themselves mumin.
in many nations a significant % of women outearn their husbands, for eg in USA nearly one third of all women earn more than their husbands, why should they have only an 8th share of their husbands' property while husbands have a 4th
Again people have a responsibility to write up their own wills and it is possible that one might want their will similar to that outlined in the quran for those who have failed to do so. It's their property to distribute as they want. Also, as an aside, you DO NOT have to follow anything the quran says , it is not meant for the all or the many and if you do not want to heed it's dictates you do not have to .
so they're unable to leave wills
That's not a good argument about people not having written a will. For example, my mom is in her late 40s and she's had her will for years. Being in your late 40s is not being old.
So what to do in these cases?
You speak of the worst possible scenerios and of incompetent individuals who do not even have to follow what the quran teaches.
Joe
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Peace
Everyone does have male children, or vice versa. I believe females actually outnumber males in this wide world of ours. While you are complaining about people not making wills before they die, you still are talking about living people in their old age. It is a responsibility they have failed to uphold if they reckon themselves mumin.
Again people have a responsibility to write up their own wills and it is possible that one might want their will similar to that outlined in the quran for those who have failed to do so. It's their property to distribute as they want. Also, as an aside, you DO NOT have to follow anything the quran says , it is not meant for the all or the many and if you do not want to heed it's dictates you do not have to .
That's not a good argument about people not having written a will. For example, my mom is in her late 40s and she's had her will for years. Being in your late 40s is not being old.
You speak of the worst possible scenerios and of incompetent individuals who do not even have to follow what the quran teaches.
Joe
Forget late forties, what about newlyweds? If husband suddenly dies, wife inherits half of what husband would have inherited had she pre deceased him. Or young men-daddies of little girls in their twenties?
These people might die too, death can strike anytime, plus in one's youth, wealth constantly increases, my will this month needs to be continually updated. Life has a lot of work except will making, the Quran says that make wills when you feel death approaching, you don't feel death approaching in your twenties if you're not terminally ill, have a healthy body, aren't a soldier etc.
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YUSUFALI It is prescribed, when death approaches any of you, if he leave any goods that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin, according to reasonable usage; this is due from the Allah-fearing.
PICKTHAL It is prescribed for you, when death approacheth one of you, if he leave wealth, that he bequeath unto parents and near relatives in kindness. (This is) a duty for all those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR Bequest is prescribed for you when death approaches one of you, if he leaves behind wealth for parents and near relatives, according to usage, a duty (incumbent) upon those who guard (against evil).One of my second cousins- 28 year old, had a 23 year old 7 months pregnant pregnant wife at the time of his death, he wasn't accident prone, wasn't in a warzone, didn't have a terminal illness etc. He died on his way to work when a chunk of cement fell on his head from a construction site, this is a rare occurence. His widow was understandably devastated, she felt the financial pinch too. Soon she had her child, a daughter. He had quarelled with his family over marrying her & so they were keen to let the widow & daughter get as little money as possible, if only to spite them.
Was he hopelessly incompetent for not leaving a will, as even 002.180 the Quran says, "It is prescribed, when death approaches any of you," & there was no way he could have seen death approaching?
He had worked for 6 years, hadn't eared an inordinate amount but whatever he had earned would have helped his family immensely, had only the God written Quran had a caveat that laws are bound by time & place & can be amended.
Surely, if a documet comes from God Himself, it would kow that time & societies would change, even modern Constitutions keep this in mind, although they're written by humans & make explicit room for amendments.
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This is the meaning of the word amendment
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_an_amendment
a?mend?ment (-mnd'mnt)
n.- The act of changing for the better; improvement "Society may sometimes show signs of repentance and amendment" (George G. Coulton).
- A correction or alteration, as in a manuscript.
- The process of formally altering or adding to a document or record.
- A statement of such an alteration or addition The 19th Amendment to the Constitution gave women the right to vote.
- A material, such as organic matter or sand, mixed into soil to improve growing conditions.
Above retrieved from Answers.com
Thus, amendment means changing, alteration or addition, the best Quran allows is understanding in case of difference of opinion, it never says that it can be altered, changed or corrected with changing times.
Thus, the meaning of a word like " modest dress" can mean everything from a niqab with a sheath for the eyes to a jeans & top, according to the best understanding, however,in cases like explicit & clear instructions of giving half to daughters & widows, an amendment is needed.
The Constitutions of most nations, which accept that they're man made, have room for amendment, its strange that the Creator didn't make room for amendment. D
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Peace,
You know what, Fawzia? Our family have had such objection in the past when dealing with the matter (my grandfather from my father), from one woman member in the family. The matter was settled post inheritance process, however, with the more wealthy ones of the family giving some of their share to the less wealthy. That is also Quran, if you are ready to see it from a bigger view.
And i was going into the discussion since i thought--looking from the topic starter--you were going to be objective this time. However this seem contradictory
If Islam is really made by the Creator, it would have such a proviso saying that this discrimination is limited to people not making wills in 7th century Arabia, not to other gender equal societies or to changes in modernity, surely the Creator can see past, present & future?
That fact that Allah has made a law applicable to a particular society, with explicit instructions & not made provisions for modernity shows how men make these laws, not the Creator.
Similar to Allah's ignorance about the pernicious effects of cousin marriages, which unfortunately isn't only limited to South Asian Muslims but to Arab, Iranian, Turkish etc Muslims too-a simple discouragement from Allah, like a simple explanation from Allah about women's inheritance being time bound would have immensely helped matters.
Ah, ignorance, eh? How can you justify your objectivity with such statement?
So much for the discussion, then. I'd discuss it somewhere else, thank you.
Peace.
Oops, sorry Fawzia, i almost forgot your usual smilies... ;D ... done.