women/ females/ orphans in Surah Nisa, 4:3
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Fawzia, answer honestly about 48-10 and 4127-129
Are you going to cover it?
Are you going to be like those who abuse the Quran? They use their ego. Are you using your ego now to not comment about them?
Or are you going to get back to the same old story, the greedy "muslims" men... it's even there right on the 4128 "men's souls are swayed by greed"!
It's already there! SAME OLD STORY INDEED!
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Mazhar, thank you for pointing out the different term used in 4127. Clearly there it is yataman-nisa, as opposed to only yataman on the 43, thus this is enough as a warning for those who want to abuse 43.
4127 They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.
4128 If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
4129 Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Good enough san, but I feel that it'd have been better had Allah mentioned that men who don't marry war widows & mothers of orphans but just taken on a second wife do a grave wrong?
There are all sorts of men & women. If a door is left even a little open, people would want to go in.
Allah prohibits polytheism, idolatry etc in no uncertain terms, why not also prohibit men taking on a second or more wives if there are no poor, incapable mothers of orphans whom they have to look after in equally strong terms too? ???
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so yataman nisa means orphaned girls and
yataman means orphan of either sex?Sarah, i didn't check and i haven't commented about 4127.
I'm going to give an example
"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 1793
Notice, " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."
The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).
The analogy might not be straightforward, because in this case, not every nisaa' is a yataama.
However in this case, the yatama that is addressed are those of yataman-nisaa'
This is literally different from that of 43.
Peace
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Fawzia, answer honestly about 48-10 and 4127-129
Are you going to cover it?
Are you going to be like those who abuse the Quran? They use their ego. Are you using your ego now to not comment about them?
Or are you going to get back to the same old story, the greedy "muslims" men... it's even there right on the 4128 "men's souls are swayed by greed"!
It's already there! SAME OLD STORY INDEED!
Yes san sure, I understand that we can use alternate verses to show that polygamy is not encouraged, however, as I said it is permitted.
Every human being, man or woman isn't noble, sacrificing as even the Quran says.
If a door is left open even a little bit, there's a leeway.
Under most conditions, polygamy is abusive to women.
So why didn't Allah say, after that orphans & widows, that if there're no numerous war widows all desperate for protection from men, marry one?
This is how even Indonesian men are mis using the law
http//www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/24/ap/asia/main5418276.shtml
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Good enough san, but I feel that it'd have been better had Allah mentioned that men who don't marry war widows & mothers of orphans but just taken on a second wife do a grave wrong?
There are all sorts of men & women. If a door is left even a little open, people would want to go in.
Allah prohibits polytheism, idolatry etc in no uncertain terms, why not also prohibit men taking on a second or more wives if there are no poor, incapable mothers of orphans whom they have to look after in equally strong terms too? ???
Good enough Fawzia, looks like 4129 not strong enough indeed for the abusers, or they don't take any attention to it at all. Don't be like them.
Why don't you read those God's terrible warning yourself, again in a bigger view. I.e., read the book honestly. You can read, can you? Oh yeah i forgot, we still have the issue of mistranslation and that you won't lean arabic.
Peace.
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An unfortunate Bangladeshi incident, man was desperate for a son, poured acid into his daughter's mouth! Poor child is scarred for life
http//www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=100568
Babli's father wanted to be the "proud parent" of a son, and when a son was not born to him but a daughter, he chose to be a villain.
Bakhtiar Rana, a carpenter by profession in Betagi Thana in Rangunia, Chittagong, took an instant dislike to the fact that his wife "had given him a burden instead of an heir" and made his feelings clear.
The resentment over being stuck with a burden -- as a girl child is still labelled in society -- grew in such proportions in him that things took a turn for the worst when Babli was just seven months old in July 2000.
On the fateful day, Babli's father chose to forget that he was a human being. He took his child in his arms and used a medicine dropper to force acid into her mouth, into her ears and on her feet. He also did not spare her anal passage.
The attack left Babli with a burnt throat, tongue and severe hearing impairment. She also suffered serious damage to knees, feet and anal passage. But the fighter that the little baby was, she kept her struggle to just stay alive and she was lucky enough to draw the attention of people who would help her.
Now eight years later, after sessions of continuous treatments, Babli can now not only eat on her own but also talk and even goes to school.
Bakhtiar Rana was never arrested and her mother Parul Akter still suffers from the trauma of witnessing the heinous attack on her child to kill her.
Parul who lives and works in Dhaka now told The Daily Star yesterday ?Everyone apprehended she would die from the injuries she suffered but my brave daughter held on. She underwent at least six major operations over the last eight years since 2001.
A visiting surgeon from the USA first operated on Babli to try and repair her food pipe and throat. After that surgery she was able to drink liquid food and gradually was able to swallow semi-solid food.
In 2004, one of her damaged toes had to be amputated during surgeries to restore the use of her feet. In 2005, further surgery restored the use of her tongue. Then in January and March 2006, two operations by a visiting plastic surgeon from UK reconstructed her inner mouth.
All these operations were made possible because of the shelter given to the mother and child by the Acid Survivors Foundation since November 2000.
Parul told The Daily Star ?We did not get justice in nine years and I now think that we will never get any justice because the law enforcement agencies say that Bakhtiar is still absconding.
If attacking one South Asian is allowed, why not another? ???
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Yes san sure, I understand that we can use alternate verses to show that polygamy is not encouraged, however, as I said it is permitted.
Every human being, man or woman isn't noble, sacrificing as even the Quran says.
If a door is left open even a little bit, there's a leeway.
Under most conditions, polygamy is abusive to women.
So why didn't Allah say, after that orphans & widows, that if there're no numerous war widows all desperate for protection from men, marry one?
This is how even Indonesian men are mis using the law
http//www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/24/ap/asia/main5418276.shtml
You are totally right on this. This is the matter of the muslims misinterpreting. Go ask them why they did that. Seems like they didn't observe it honestly.
Marry one? Reading from the verse 43 and 4129 carefully, and if that man is just and want to be just, then yes. One wife.
Peace.
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An unfortunate Bangladeshi incident, man was desperate for a son, poured acid into his daughter's mouth! Poor child is scarred for life (
http//www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=100568
If attacking one South Asian is allowed, why not another? ???
Good question Fawzia. Please answer the if first. The condition is not necessary true.
Pity about the child-abusing parents. It's happening here in my country too. Disgusting
Peace.
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Yes sarah, just orphan. And no gender specified.
this is interesting,
my second and third questions are a reference to an earlier post on this thread.
43 And if you feared that you not be just/equitable in the orphans , so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that (is) nearer that you not side away from justice . (Ahmed and Samira.)
Q.2) Who are the women referred to here? The free-minds forum says the 'mothers of the orphans.' Is it referring to the orphan girls when they are older, more mature, and capable of handling marriage? Or is it something entirely differently?
Q.2) Why does it say twos AND threes AND fours? The earlier thread 'number of wives' had a long, convoluted discussion on whether those were cardinals or ordinals, but it wasn't clear what the final consensus was.
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Good enough Fawzia, looks like 4129 not strong enough indeed for the abusers, or they don't take any attention to it at all. Don't be like them.
Even if I'm not like then san, what is the guarantee that everybody won't be like them? ???
Even if good men ignore it, the door is still left open.
Just read the Quran, see how strongly polytheism & idolatry are discouraged. Why isn't polygamy, except under the rarest of situations, similarly discouraged?
If Allah is so bothered over whether people are bowing down before idols or not, why not similarly worry over other instances of polygamy?
Why is wanton polygamy less of a sin than any idolatry?
Whom does idolatry hurt like polygamy hurts women & children?
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Even if I'm not like then san, what is the guarantee that everybody won't be like them? ???
Even if good men ignore it, the door is still left open.
Just read the Quran, see how strongly polytheism & idolatry are discouraged. Why isn't polygamy, except under the rarest of situations, similarly discouraged?
If Allah is so bothered over whether people are bowing down before idols or not, why not similarly worry over other instances of polygamy?
Why is wanton polygamy less of a sin than any idolatry?
Whom does idolatry hurt like polygamy hurts women & children?
The 'perceived' door is still left open. Why ask me? Ask them. It's their perception. And yours too, it seems.
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this is interesting,
my second and third questions are a reference to an earlier post on this thread.
43 And if you feared that you not be just/equitable in the orphans , so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that (is) nearer that you not side away from justice . (Ahmed and Samira.)
Q.2) Who are the women referred to here? The free-minds forum says the 'mothers of the orphans.' Is it referring to the orphan girls when they are older, more mature, and capable of handling marriage? Or is it something entirely differently?
Q.2) Why does it say twos AND threes AND fours? The earlier thread 'number of wives' had a long, convoluted discussion on whether those were cardinals or ordinals, but it wasn't clear what the final consensus was.
First question--i think that would be another iteration, then.
If the orphan is matured, then it's related to verse 46 it seems.Second question. I haven't observed this enough to justify my comments.
I think it is safe to say that it's the limit for one man his entire time (or at any given time). However the risk of injustice should be emphasized, as it is explicit on the verses. Both the verses 43 and 4129 must be scrutinized very very carefully.
Peace.
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Marry one? Reading from the verse 43 and 4129 carefully, and if that man is just and want to be just, then yes. One wife.
san answer one thing honestly, can every non Arab spend years of his\her prime learning Arabic?
Non Arab Muslims are the world's majority Muslims, they have loads to do apart from learning Arabic.
They have to study so many stuff, know science & technology, get jobs, etc.
Even if I learn Arabic, it won't help, I can only tell some stuff to some people, anyone else can misinterpret anything, also even Saudi Arabs don't speak the Quranic Arabic anymore.
All men don't want to be just, however most Muslims do want to be free of Allah's fire.
Allah has threatened Muslims with hellfire for turning non believers or for polytheism, but He did leave a leeway for polygamy.
So a man can well take on a second wife, he might feel that as long as he's sharing time equally between first wife & this one, he's not destined for Hell in the afterlife.
Crimes need to be prohibited, not simply discouraged from this & that verse.
Isn't theft, robbery, pedophilia etc prohibited in most nations, or are they simply discouraged?
So why doesn't Allah prohibit?
What was the bigger neccessity of prohibiting idolatry & polythesm over wanton polygamy?
I have Italian born Catholic neighbours, they pray before statues of Virgin Mary & many saints, they think God is Trinity, I don't think thats evil.
However, walking in with a second wife when someone has a wife & (maybe) kids is evil.
So why isn't other, not neccessary sorts of polygamy forbidden in a similar way?
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The 'perceived' door is still left open. Why ask me? Ask them. It's their perception. And yours too, it seems.
Not the percieved door san, the real door. I can show you the many places where Allah says that He'll burn idolators, Trinitarians & atheists in Hellfire, but nowhere has Allah said that He'll burn other sorts of polygamists in Hellfire who don't meet these exact stipulations.
Asking me won't help because I'm not Muslim anymore, I think polygamy's wrong & I have the law of my country to support me, that law prohibits polygamy in no uncertain terms.It doesn't discourage, it prohibits, & offenders are punished.
However, Muslim men who want to can certainly do as they want under Allah's laws. Okay, nicer men will be discouraged, but Allah is far more reticent on wanton polygamy than he is on idolatry or atheists like me!
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san answer one thing honestly, can every non Arab spend years of his\her prime learning Arabic?
Non Arab Muslims are the world's majority Muslims, they have loads to do apart from learning Arabic.
They have to study so many stuff, know science & technology, get jobs, etc.
Even if I learn Arabic, it won't help, I can only tell some stuff to some people, anyone else can misinterpret anything, also even Saudi Arabs don't speak the Quranic Arabic anymore.
All men don't want to be just, however most Muslims do want to be free of Allah's fire.
Allah has threatened Muslims with hellfire for turning non believers or for polytheism, but He did leave a leeway for polygamy.
So a man can well take on a second wife, he might feel that as long as he's sharing time equally between first wife & this one, he's not destined for Hell in the afterlife.
Crimes need to be prohibited, not simply discouraged from this & that verse.
Isn't theft, robbery, pedophilia etc prohibited in most nations, or are they simply discouraged?
So why doesn't Allah prohibit?
What was the bigger neccessity of prohibiting idolatry & polythesm over wanton polygamy?
I have Italian born Catholic neighbours, they pray before statues of Virgin Mary & many saints, they think God is Trinity, I don't think thats evil.
However, walking in with a second wife when someone has a wife & (maybe) kids is evil.
So why isn't other, not neccessary sorts of polygamy forbidden in a similar way?
Fawzia, listen, honestly.
That is why many people so depend on the translators. If the translators are ego-maniacs, or even if they are trying to be honest but still did errors, then so many people's decisions are compromised.
Do you think one man's view is enough on translating? No, that's why there must be cooperation and earnest discussion.
That's the very theme of this forum itself.
We don't take current translations as is. We are trying to verify by ourselves, and discuss our views with others who want to cooperate with us. And so far, i have the feeling that we are in the minority, at the time being.
I don't know how the Scholars are guarding their opinion and what measures they have taken and will take.
You know the story about RK's murder, Fawzia? It was decreed. It was following a fatwa.
Please don't ask me about what they cover this and why they abuse that. I HAVE NO IDEA, other than what is already mentioned in the Book.
Honestly, Fawzia, just because there is a good system doesn't mean that ALL THE PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW. You know this very well.
Peace,
Not the percieved door san, the real door. I can show you the many places where Allah says that He'll burn idolators, Trinitarians & atheists in Hellfire, but nowhere has Allah said that He'll burn other sorts of polygamists in Hellfire who don't meet these exact stipulations.
Asking me won't help because I'm not Muslim anymore, I think polygamy's wrong & I have the law of my country to support me, that law prohibits polygamy in no uncertain terms.It doesn't discourage, it prohibits, & offenders are punished.
However, Muslim men who want to can certainly do as they want under Allah's laws. Okay, nicer men will be discouraged, but Allah is far more reticent on wanton polygamy than he is on idolatry or atheists like me!
And asking me won't help either because i'm not one of them abusers.
It is related to justice in general, as you can see, there is already the "fire"warning for those who abuse the orphans. Help me search then. I'm not an expert nor that i have memorized the entire Book.
Again, PLEASE READ YOURSELF WHAT IS THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE in the Quran's view. (ed or specifically, the fate of those who cover the message and abuse for their own ego)
Peace.
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Fawzia, listen, honestly.
That is why many people so depend on the translators. If the translators are ego-maniacs, or even if they are trying to be honest but still did errors, then so many people's decisions are compromised.
Do you think one man's view is enough on translating? No, that's why there must be cooperation and earnest discussion.
That's the very theme of this forum itself.
We don't take current translations as is. We are trying to verify by ourselves, and discuss our views with others who want to cooperate with us. And so far, i have the feeling that we are in the minority, at the time being.
I know that one man's view isn't enough, I have read plenty of translations-mostly in English but also in Farsi.
However, if so many people are incapable of translating the simplest stuff, then that simply shows that there's something majorly wrong in Islamic instructions.
We can't really verfy with others very well, unless we have knowledge of Arabic, if its true that all or most previous translators had it wrong.Also, knowledge of Arabic wouldn't help, we'd need to know Classical Arabic, which would require years of study on Muslims parts, given the demands of modernity, this isn't feasible for a billion plus people.
Than how do we know that what we're accepting is a true translation or some saccharine sweetened translation to appeal to modern tastes???
And asking me won't help either because i'm not one of them.
It is related to justice in general, as you can see, there is already the "fire"warning for those who abuse the orphans. Help me search then. I'm not an expert nor that i have memorized the entire Book.
Again, PLEASE READ YOURSELF WHAT IS THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE in the Quran's view.
Sure justice in general, but in case of stuff like polygamy, don't you think there needs to be specifics? Sure the US Constitution goes on & on about stuff like liberty equality, but it also has specifics, like prohibiting murder, robbery etc.
Polygamy abuses the first wife & her children, this isn't the same as abusing orphans, the first wife isn't an orphan, nor are her kids, who have both parents living.
Sure, the Quran, to re type what you said, does say that, THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE will be Hellfire, but then the majority of people aren't Muslims.
The Trinitarian Christians, idolatrous Hindus & Buddhists, the Chinese folk religionists, Japanese Shinto Buddhists, people of no religion, all far outnumber any Muslims or monotheists!
Even without sins like polygamy, the Quran does say that these folks will end up in Hell for disbelief!That would happily make up the majority.
Why should a good atheist or Trinitarian Catholic be criticized more strongly than a polygamist?
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Fawzia, seems like you take on the matter of justice and disbelieve lightly. It 's your take. I'm only passing on.
4135-149
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort or refuse , then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.
O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.
Give tidings to the hypocrites that there is for them a painful punishment -
Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will you find for them a helper -
Except for those who repent, correct themselves, hold fast to Allah , and are sincere in their religion for Allah , for those will be with the believers. And Allah is going to give the believers a great reward.
What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing.
Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.
If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.
Don't ask me for anything other than the topic of this thread. And i really have to leave now.
Peace.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg181548#msg181548
Second
A WOMAN, ( ة is a grown-up adult. There is no such thing as an ORPHAN WOMAN.
Have you ever heard of an ORPHAN MAN...?
When Pickthal translated the verse as such { Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them}
He not only corrupted the text (which mentions WOMEN not females), but also condoned pedophilia.
How in God's name do you marry an orphan?! Open your eyes man, for God's sake!!! An orphan is a child!
How can you be so blind?In Arabic, an orphan = a child who has lost his father.
The Quran is talking about marrying the WOMEN WHO ARE THE MOTHERS OF THE ORPHANS!!!! not the orphans themselves!!.
The phrase (The orphans OF women meaning the orphans belonging to the women) does NOT mean (orphan women). There's no such thing as an "orphan women" to begin with (woman = grown up past the age of orphanage).
The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
(orphan women) women who are left alone in the society, those who couldn't get a partner for any reason, they are either widowed, divorced, single women.
- homeless Men/Women