Question about "Ittaharro" after "Junub"

Amid

Thank you all. Yes, this does make sense to me, because that's how I understood it from the beginning. However the following interests me

Based on what exactly do so many people conclude that it means to wash the entire body?

Many are saying that ittaharro itself means to bathe completely unless certain body parts are specified. I would like to understand their reasoning behind this. What is the evidence for this, from the arabic language? The most important thing I want to know is this

Are they claiming there is no other way to say "wash your whole body" in arabic except to use the word ittaharro without specifying body parts?? If this is true, then they would have a point. But is it true?

If it's not true, then how would you say "wash your whole body/take a complete bath" in arabic?

Thanks much!
Amid

noble

Peace Amid,
Ightassilu means taking a bath with clean water. This is what it means in vernacular arabic.
This is why we use the term when we wash the dead before burial.
However to make sure, some arabs make the distinction when you want to distinguish between
washing the whole body, and washing a part,
for the whole bath ghasla kabira
for a part wash (like half upper or lower body or less) ghasla saghira.
These are things we get taught when we are kids in family settings (well for the
descendants of tribal arabs anyway).
So unfortunately when you ejaculate, you need to have a bath to pray, unless you use tayamum (dry sand or stone)...
I hope this helps...
And Allah knows best...

Salaam
Idriss.III

san

@theNabster, thank you for your explanation on Ightasilu, ghasla kabira, ghasla, saghira.

You must be referring to 443, right?

So unfortunately when you ejaculate, you need to have a bath to pray, unless you use tayamum (dry sand or stone)...

Let's consider it safest to "wash" the whole body with the least amount of water possible (efficiency!) after "cleaning" the part in concern. However, when reading 443, in which the command taGtasiluw is not detailed -- isn't it then explained by the command "faGsiluw ... " in 56?

Then when it came to "wa In kuntum junuban faTTahharuw!" ... "clean" as in "remove the dirt".

My point is that when we are going to AlSalaAt,
we must "wash" our face and so on...
and if we are in junub, then we must "clean" the part by "removing the dirt"

So when we are going to Salaat and we are in junub, it is not enough for us to just "clean" (ITTahharuw) the unclean part itself, but we must also "wash" (IGtasiluw). And what to "wash" (IGtasiluw) is already specified in 56.

I'm not denying the advantage of a full bath, but when it comes to the whole mankind, we should stick to what is explained in Alqur'aan as it is the most efficient.

Now can you tell me how much the difference between these two cases (in both cases your body except your private part is relatively clean)

You take a full bath and then you dry your body (except your face, forearm, head, and feet) before you wear your clothes.
You clean your private part, and then you dry it before you wear your clothes and -- (before or after) -- you wash your face and forearms, wipe your head and wash your feet.

Or is there any difference -- other than the slightly fresher feel for some moments after full-bath?

Efficiency concern How much more clean water is needed to get this slightly fresher feel?

Peace

Amid

TheNabster's post confused me even more. I thought the word in question was ITTahharuw, but now it seems that IGtasiluw is also in question. Now I have no idea on how to understand this. TheNabster is saying the following

Ightassilu means taking a bath with clean water.
Ghasla kabira means whole bath.
Ghasla saghira means partial bath.

Then he concludes when you ejaculate, you need to have a bath to pray. ???

If that's not ridiculously confusing, then I don't know what is. Can someone who knows arabic answer these questions please

Is there any other way/method in arabic to instruct us to wash our whole body except the way/method that is used in these ayats?
If ghasla kabira means whole bath, then wouldn't ghasla kabira have to be used in those ayats in order to mean wash your whole body?

It just doesn't make sense to me to wash the whole body, and I still don't understand their reasoning behind it that unless this word (ITTahharuw, IGtasiluwis, or whatever it is) is used for specific body parts then it must mean bathe from head to toe. I just don't get it. Someone please shed some more light on this. I really appreciate it.

Amid

san

Peace

@Amid i think you quoted 56 (originally misquoted 65 in the topic starter) and theNabster might be referring to 443. There should be no confusion if you read both verses properly.

http//quran.uk.net/WordByWord.aspx?chapter=4&verse=43
http//quran.uk.net/WordByWord.aspx?chapter=5&verse=6

(Note that the translation is not necessarily accurate. they're only taken from 'popular' sources someone said...)

Please cross-reference with Lane's lexicon or PRL, especially for the root words (jim-nun-ba), (Gha-sin-lam), (Tay-ha-ra)
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

In my opinion, i think 56 details what is mentioned in 443. Please read my post above and tell me what you think.

Peace

Amid

Peace

@Amid i think you quoted 56 (originally misquoted 65 in the topic starter) and theNabster might be referring to 443. There should be no confusion if you read both verses properly.

http//quran.uk.net/WordByWord.aspx?chapter=4&verse=43
http//quran.uk.net/WordByWord.aspx?chapter=5&verse=6

(Note that the translation is not necessarily accurate. they're only taken from 'popular' sources someone said...)

Please cross-reference with Lane's lexicon or PRL, especially for the root words (jim-nun-ba), (Gha-sin-lam), (Tay-ha-ra)
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

In my opinion, i think 56 details what is mentioned in 443. Please read my post above and tell me what you think.

Peace

Your post makes perfect sense. Can you elaborate on these two questions?

Is there any other way/method in arabic to instruct us to wash our whole body except the way/method that is used in these ayats? (note this question is already assuming that these verses actually do instruct washing the whole body)

and

If ghasla kabira means whole bath, then wouldn't ghasla kabira have to be used in those ayats in order to mean wash your whole body?

Amid

afridi220

Your post makes perfect sense. Can you elaborate on these two questions?

Is there any other way/method in arabic to instruct us to wash our whole body except the way/method that is used in these ayats? (note this question is already assuming that these verses actually do instruct washing the whole body)

and

If ghasla kabira means whole bath, then wouldn't ghasla kabira have to be used in those ayats in order to mean wash your whole body?

Amid

Wash your whole body =

noble

Peace Amid
and sorry for the confusion
Ittaharu means purify yourself.
Ightassilu means clean your body with water.
So you purify yourself with water.These are the "common denominator" meaning.

Now it is up to you and your voluntary convenience, as your circumstances dictate.
The purpose is to have a clean body, and clean clothes (in another ayah "... and your garment cleanse/purify...&quot.

I hope this clears the confusion.

Islam is as much about common sense as about logic and reason. Allah has not descended the Quran for us to distress us, so choose the medium course, and if your body is already clean, and you are satisfied, maybe for you just cleansing your genitals is enough.
But there is no compulsion either way, i.e. there is no right way to do it, so long as you are indeed clean.

This also makes answers to other questions unnecessary.

Amid

Wash your whole body =

And since I can't speak nor read arabic, that post is useless to me.

Amid

Peace Amid
and sorry for the confusion
Ittaharu means purify yourself.
Ightassilu means clean your body with water.
So you purify yourself with water.These are the "common denominator" meaning.

Now it is up to you and your voluntary convenience, as your circumstances dictate.
The purpose is to have a clean body, and clean clothes (in another ayah "... and your garment cleanse/purify...&quot.

I hope this clears the confusion.

Islam is as much about common sense as about logic and reason. Allah has not descended the Quran for us to distress us, so choose the medium course, and if your body is already clean, and you are satisfied, maybe for you just cleansing your genitals is enough.
But there is no compulsion either way, i.e. there is no right way to do it, so long as you are indeed clean.

This also makes answers to other questions unnecessary.

Now I understand you better. Thank you for clarifying.

san

Your post makes perfect sense. Can you elaborate on these two questions?

Is there any other way/method in arabic to instruct us to wash our whole body except the way/method that is used in these ayats? (note this question is already assuming that these verses actually do instruct washing the whole body)

and

If ghasla kabira means whole bath, then wouldn't ghasla kabira have to be used in those ayats in order to mean wash your whole body?

Amid

Please read 3842

Urkud bi rijlika hatha mughtasalun baridun wa sharab
"Strike with your foot; this is a cool bath and drink."

I'm not Arabic native so i'd refer to theNabster's post when he explained Ightasilu -- if none specified, it would mean "bath" as in "wash the whole body". The verse above could be an example. Mughtasalun == a bathing water/place

In the case of 443, the command "Ightasiluw" is not explained -- however from 56 we can take its explanation on what to "Ightasiluw"/wash (i.e., how to perform ablution in general).

Gh-Siin-Lam = wash, purify, removing of dirt or filth, cleanse; covered much or often; water with which one washes himself; a certain plant growing in places that exude water and produce salt, place for washing, spring.

ghasala vb. (1) impv. 56 (aghsiluu)

ghislin n.m. 6936 (ghisliinin)

mughtasal n.m. 3842 (mughtasalun)

ightasala vb. (8 ) impf. act. 443 (taghtasiluu)

Lane?s Lexicon, Volume 6, pages 42, 43, 44

Peace

Amid

I'm not Arabic native so i'd refer to theNabster's post when he explained Ightasilu -- if none specified, it would mean "bath" as in "wash the whole body". The verse above could be an example. Mughtasalun == a bathing water/place

So are you now saying that it DOES say to wash ourselves from head to toe after junub? ???

siki

Salam.

A poster on this forum said the following

"Ejaculation for men and is called in the Quran Junub, Allah in 65 ordered us to do Wudu by washing a specific body parts, however He told us that if we are Junub then we need to "Ittaharro" without specifying which body part, therefore it has to mean the whole body."

I've seen other posters too saying the same thing.

Since I don't speak Arabic, I'm interested in more details regarding the word "Ittaharro," and why this person says "without specifying which body part, therefore it has to mean the whole body."

Can someone explain this? For example, after sex it does make sense to bathe the whole body, and this is also commanded in the Qur'an as far as I know. But what about a wet dream? I just don't understand why we need to wash our hair if we ejaculated without having sex, whether it be through masturbation or a wet dream. It makes sense to wash your private parts and remove all traces of semen, but why a complete bath including the hair?

How does Ittaharro without specifying a body part mean "wash your entire body from head to toe?" I'm really interested in this. It's been bothering me for a long time.

Peace,
Amid

peace

Ghusul , means washing with water, if you read 4-43 and 5-6 , it clearly mentions the body parts after the word , Fa Ghasilu, and when ever no such body part is mentioned it
would mean a Bath ,

so Ghusul" means Bath,

Had God wanted you to wash your sexual organs only, He would have mentioned them after the word Hatta taghtasilloo , just like the way it is being mentioned in 4-43 and 5-6

some more from one of my previous posts,

5-6, .. Wa in kuntum junabaaen wa taharroo,,,, this is probably the first order decalring the 4 step wadu and if one is in a state of junnab ( sexual encounter resulting into discharge of semen) stating a requirement to purify ones self by cleaning. As this cleaning/purifying was ambiguous, so in 4-43 this cleansing has been elaborated upon, by declaring it a "Ghusul" (washing with water)

4-43 ,,, wala junabaan illa Abri sabeelin hatta taghtasillooo,,,, not only that Tahroo is explained as to be Ghusalloo, but a concession sub clause is also added to the subject, which is

If one is in a state of Junanaba but is out on a road somewhere , then he does not need to take a Ghusal, probably a wadu with water will suffice, or if one does not find water then Tayyammam with soil.

you must also note, That there are only two conditions which prohibit you from salat,

Intoxication , till you get back to your senses and understand what you are saying.
junab, unless you Taharoo your self by Ghusul, ( a concession is granted to a traveller if he cant take a Ghusul)

siki

noble

Peace
As I said before, it is up to Amid to decide how he wishes to interpret, otherwise, if we interpret for him, he is taking us as partners beside The God, which defeats the whole point of being a Muslim...
There is a range of safe possibilities, as there always is that Allah allows, and it is between Allah and us, as individuals and communities to decide the best course for us...
So Ightassil can mean bath and also means clean with water the body, it does not specify how thoroughly, for how long, and does not emphasize which parts, so let us allow the recipients leeway as Allah has allowed too, if it was left open, it is also for a reason, as many other matters in the Quran...
This is the mature course...

Amid

Peace
As I said before, it is up to Amid to decide how he wishes to interpret, otherwise, if we interpret for him, he is taking us as partners beside The God, which defeats the whole point of being a Muslim...
There is a range of safe possibilities, as there always is that Allah allows, and it is between Allah and us, as individuals and communities to decide the best course for us...
So Ightassil can mean bath and also means clean with water the body, it does not specify how thoroughly, for how long, and does not emphasize which parts, so let us allow the recipients leeway as Allah has allowed too, if it was left open, it is also for a reason, as many other matters in the Quran...
This is the mature course...

I interpret it to clean and wash that which is unclean (in this case, the genitals and surrounding area). User siki seems to disagree. Of course there are others who disagree as well.

God knows best.

Jack

56
...and if you are filthy, then become clean (how does one become clean? O you who believe, if you rise to attend the assembly, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe you heads and your feet to the ankles); and if you are ill or traveling or you have excreted, or you have sexually touched the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands...

If Ghusl = whole body, how come the tayammum only prescribes face and hands?

443

O you who believe, do not come near the assembly while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except for travellers, until you wash (aren't we told how to wash in 56?). And if you are ill or traveling or one of you has excretion or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Ghusl to me is the ablution. Suggesting that ghusl = washing your whole body is an extrapolation. It just does not fit the context. 3842, while an excellent reference is irrelevant contextually, because we are told wash/ghusl a specific way.

noble

Peace Jack,

Wudhu = Ablution (specific)
Ightisal = Wash (indefinite)

review your cross-reference better in AQ.

palestina

If Ghusl = whole body, how come the tayammum only prescribes face and hands?

443

i think tayamum is about practicality - ie. if there is no water - when might that have occured? when travelling maybe? so if you're being practical, then it doesnt make sense to strip down and "bathe" in clean soil... whereas a wiping the hands & face is doable.

Jack

Peace Jack,

Wudhu = Ablution (specific)

Ightisal = Wash (indefinite)

I agree. I am just saying that we are told specifically how to wash i.e. contextually the wash = ablution.

review your cross-reference better in AQ.

You can do better than this Show me how I messed up. I am afraid i'll have to see concrete evidence for ghusl =bathing the whole body.

i think tayamum is about practicality - ie. if there is no water - when might that have occured? when travelling maybe? so if you're being practical, then it doesnt make sense to strip down and "bathe" in clean soil... whereas a wiping the hands & face is doable.

Sure, agreed. It's about practicality. But 'wipe the face and hands' is used specifically for the ablution. Could be a coincidence...or maybe not.

noble

Peace Jack, ay,
no need to split hair.
I told you the meanings in the arabic which was taught to me by my arabic parents in childhood, up to you what you do.
For me, ghasl is easir than ablution, the way I do it anyway, but it is my way.
I just run a warm bath, jump in it, then come out, dry myself, and that's it.
If there is time, I will allow myself the luxury to soak in it for 15 mins, very pleasant, and if less time, a 3 mins shower (if available) will do.
No fuss, unless you are allergic to water lol...
Of course every few days, a good bath with soap, shampoo etc, but thats for hygiene, which is important too, anyways...
You can have dry ablution as a replacement for either normal ablution or ghusl...
This is part of the grammar of living of the Arab muslims, no need for hadith, it is ingrained and carved from parents to children, like burying the dead, the basics of the language (even if the urban people try their best to add sophistication and corruption to those as we can see), starting a fire, etc. (all taught by Allah at one stage or another through Messengers or inspiration anyway).

Salaam

Idriss.III