what do you think about 2:54?
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For some circumstances, I must raise up this thread again
254 And Moses said to his people ?O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill
yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.?466 And had We decreed for them ?Kill yourselves,? or ?Leave your land,? they would not have done so except for a few of them. And if they had done what they were advised with, it would have been better for them and helped to strengthen them.
Just what is the meaning of "kill yourself" in both of two verses???
qatala has more meanings than killing, it also has the meaning to master, command, like in knowledge or training, also fight.
Also in the sentence of 2.54 there is something in the original Arabic Qur'an that I do not see reflected in the translations
O my people, you have wronged anfusakum by taking the calf, so turn in repentance to your Maker and aqTulu anfusakum dhalikum better to you by your Maker and forgiven, for He is the forgiving, the merciful.
In Yusuf's Ali I see this "dhalikum" reflected in notes and in brackets as meaning "kill those from amongst you" referring to the part of the people who were involved in the calf being made, but that again I find is an assumption on the part of the translator, although I do appreciate that he did not obviate the part of the text that was difficult.
Let me look now at 4.66, and it is a good job to have dugged this aya also, because it shows light ont he q-T-l meanings.
" And had We decreed for them ?aqtulu anfusakum,? or ?Leave your homes,? they would not have done so except for a few of them. And if they had done what they were advised with, it would have been better for them and helped to strengthen them."
We see that in aya 4.64 it is said, like in 2.54 that they wronged "anfusahum".
The feeling that comes to me from them is that what is required of them is not to kill their souls or to kill themselves, but to accept, acknowledge that they have to swallow a bitter pill one way or another. There is no escaping sel-sacrifice, either one accepts what is pointed at by God and His prophets, either one accepts the evil or bad things which result from not following God's warnings as transmitted by the prophets. It is killing oneself in the sense of accepting what one would rather not see, It is to stand up and fight in whichever way, but not comfortable.
I guess those who have trnaslated as ego, may have wanted to point to something like that, but I do not think anfus-nafs is the same as ego, it is rather the self, which may have evolved and be ready to make sacrifices for the sake of a greater good, that is, trascend itself, or who, in janna becomes an-nafs almutama'inna, the contented soul. It is like children for the parents, they must force them to do what they do not like for their own good. Otherwise they may become lazy, immoral, incapable adults.
Summing up swallow the bitter pill.
Salaam
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qatala has more meanings than killing, it also has the meaning to master, command, like in knowledge or training, also fight.
I guess those who have trnaslated as ego, may have wanted to point to something like that, but I do not think anfus-nafs is the same as ego, it is rather the self, which may have evolved and be ready to make sacrifices for the sake of a greater good, that is, trascend itself, or who, in janna becomes an-nafs almutama'inna, the contented soul. It is like children for the parents, they must force them to do what they do not like for their own good. Otherwise they may become lazy, immoral, incapable adults.Peace huruf,
Once the translation moves to the word "self" then self can be translated as ego in English.
e?go/igo, go/ Show Spelled Show IPA
noun, plural e?gos.-
the ?I? or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing
itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought. -
Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the
outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands
of the social and physical environment. -
egotism; conceit; self-importance Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
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self-esteem or self-image; feelings Your criticism wounded his ego.
Now to kill yourself can be translated as "suicide"
So the translation could beSahih International And when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. (commit suicide)....................................................................but that has the air of a crazy cult like Jim Jones etc.,
or
Shakir And when Musa said to his people O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people,
Here we can ascertain that the guilty cannot be redeemed therefore they are to be executed,
which is a possible understanding of the ayat.peace
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I think the best choice would master, master anfusakum, have the command of your selves, do not let it go astray... that sense
and yhe dhalikum in 2.54 may be refers to that aspect of the selves which prone to be led astray.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
"master anfusakum, have the command of your selves" is analogous to having control of the
self, the ego. The problem arises with the word fa-uq'tul "and kill"
what do you do with it? Do you eliminate it altogether or do you somehow fit it in with
"master anfusakum, have the command of your selves"?God bless
peace
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that is what I have been saying all along that q-t-l has more than the meaning to kill it has several meanings, one of them is to master something, to have command of something, there is no killing. It is not something I am inventing, it is from the dictionnary with plenty of examples.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
I personally do not think it means to kill yourself or anyone else for that matter,
because of the injunction to repent, unless those who worshipped the calf are considered
not worthy of redemption and thereby should be put to death as some translators
have indicated. I do believe the word "kill" belongs in the ayat only because I have
not found a different translation of the word fa-uq'tul. In essence I agree with you.God bless
peace
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This is the most epic necro I have ever seen. I mean, this original post was out BEFORE World of Warcraft launched.
Or maybe when I'm still play Harvest Moon at that time ;D.
This thread may expired, but not the topic. -
Peace huruf and hawk 99
In Yusuf's Ali I see this "dhalikum" reflected in notes and in brackets as meaning "kill those from amongst you" referring to the part of the people who were involved in the calf being made, but that again I find is an assumption on the part of the translator, although I do appreciate that he did not obviate the part of the text that was difficult.
I can say if the word "yourself/anfusakum" is the allegorical one, like this verse 2461
"......When you enter any home, you shall greet (fashalimu) anfisakum a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend."
The word anfisakum is plural word, so it pointing to ourself not myself.In anykind of translation including free-minds the word "anfisakum" was translated as "each other" not "your self".Looks like it's plausible
So aqtulu anfusakum in verse 254 and 466 can also be translated into "kill each other".
The feeling that comes to me from them is that what is required of them is not to kill their souls or to kill themselves, but to accept, acknowledge that they have to swallow a bitter pill one way or another. There is no escaping sel-sacrifice, either one accepts what is pointed at by God and His prophets, either one accepts the evil or bad things which result from not following God's warnings as transmitted by the prophets. It is killing oneself in the sense of accepting what one would rather not see, It is to stand up and fight in whichever way, but not comfortable.
I'm still little bit confused.If aqtulu anfusakum means kill each other or swallow a bitter pill like you said (hehe), it will against the verse 2195.
Once the translation moves to the word "self" then self can be translated as ego in English.
e?go/igo, go/ Show Spelled Show IPA
noun, plural e?gos.-
the ?I? or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing
itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought. -
Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the
outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands
of the social and physical environment. -
egotism; conceit; self-importance Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
-
self-esteem or self-image; feelings Your criticism wounded his ego.
Now to kill yourself can be translated as "suicide"
So the translation could beSahih International And when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. (commit suicide)....................................................................but that has the air of a crazy cult like Jim Jones etc.,
Shakir And when Musa said to his people O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people,
Here we can ascertain that the guilty cannot be redeemed therefore they are to be executed,
which is a possible understanding of the ayat.Thanks hawk 99, you gave the proper usage of "self" in english language.Yes in the end kill yourself still means suicide and of course it's still unQuranic.
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Allah would forgive if they repent; but He would not forgive those who associate anything such as calf in this instance. However since the prophet himself says to his people to repent, it is likely that Allah might forgive provided they obeyed Allah and died, 'martyrs'.
Martyrdom is a suicidal mission as far as kafirs are concerned. Martyrdom is magnanimous word and Allah uses it when comes to believers. "Kill yourself" is a harsh and strict word ordained on the disbelievers.
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Peace huruf and hawk 99
I can say if the word "yourself/anfusakum" is the allegorical one, like this verse 2461
"......When you enter any home, you shall greet (fashalimu) anfisakum a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend."
The word anfisakum is plural word, so it pointing to ourself not myself.In anykind of translation including free-minds the word "anfisakum" was translated as "each other" not "your self".Looks like it's plausible
So aqtulu anfusakum in verse 254 and 466 can also be translated into "kill each other".
I'm still little bit confused.If aqtulu anfusakum means kill each other or swallow a bitter pill like you said (hehe), it will against the verse 2195.
Thanks hawk 99, you gave the proper usage of "self" in english language.Yes in the end kill yourself still means suicide and of course it's still unQuranic.
And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good. 2.(195)
In 24.61 does say each other at all. That is the solution the tanslator has thought for something that gramatically cannot be so. There is no each other at all. The question is that it is using a plural and there is a long explanation before as to where they can eat and in that they are all included and all are treated as a unit.
Indeed, to kill each other, or just to kill does not make qura'nic sense, nor to kill htemselves does, but still, and in spite of the fact that q-t-l has other meanings, that go beyond kill or slay, you discard them and reject them. So it is up to you to explain the killing. For me it is clear that it is calling for something else, it is calling on the people to be consequent with their actions and choices. If you make a choice you have to put up with the consequences and the results of that choice. Somewhere alogn the line you have to struggle with yourselve and you will have to master yourself to live through what youhave to live. In the time of Musa and in today's time.
As the the mrtyrdom thing, that is something else. It may be in other contexts not in this contexts where it is unneeded and uncalled for and of no use whatseover. One cannot choose how to die without any need to defend the defenceless or fight opression. Anybody could choose to be a martyr for nothing which absolutely abhorrent.
Salaam
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Peace,
God wrote in another part of Quran "do not kill yourselves". Then suddenly He orders people to kill themselves, is that not contradictory?
God bless you
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Peace,
God wrote in another part of Quran "do not kill yourselves". Then suddenly He orders people to kill themselves, is that not contradictory?
God bless you
God would not write contradictorily. It is the translators who play havoc with their material translation. If you find any mistake of such gravity, throw that part of translation away and comprehend in such a way that it is not contradictory. God has already warned if you find any discrepancy in the ayats or between any two ayats, understand it is human caused tragedy.
It is the fault of those who translated the Quran with their materialistic, literal linguistic ability. Languages have vocabularies of physical and materialistic things and nothing else. Whereas Quran is full of abstract form and creation, the human languages comprise vocabularies of what is formed and what is destroyed and that which are in the destructive process. As long as you go by the literal translation and stand by its literal application, you are far away from heavens sticking to and grazing only the ground.
Quran is for comprehension of heavens and earth; and not for teaching Arabic or testing and priming your arabic excellence. If you take Quran seriously, then go well beyond any gross translation and perceive. You are guided by Allah direct. You will not find contradiction at all.
drfazl
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Peace o brother Fazlur (ya Fazlur),
Certainly I know God never commanded anyone to kill themselves. There is more than one way you can kill yourself, not necessarily terminating your life. It is obvious that God meant to kill the state of soul these people had and reform. Non-literal translation (and paraphrasing) "Stop your blasphemous ways and reform as new beings", ie kill what was your life, not commit suicide.
You can also say that completely submitting to God (in islam) is a sort of killing yourself, ie kill your old self.
We should never read and study Quran too literally nor through wishful thinking (the traditional muslims believe non-muslims ought to kill themselves for who they are and that they are worthless, e.g the Christians, Jews etc).
Edit corrected grammatical error.
God bless you
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Indeed, to kill each other, or just to kill does not make qura'nic sense, nor to kill htemselves does, but still, and in spite of the fact that q-t-l has other meanings, that go beyond kill or slay, you discard them and reject them. So it is up to you to explain the killing. For me it is clear that it is calling for something else, it is calling on the people to be consequent with their actions and choices. If you make a choice you have to put up with the consequences and the results of that choice. Somewhere alogn the line you have to struggle with yourselve and you will have to master yourself to live through what youhave to live. In the time of Musa and in today's time.
Thanks huruf.
REDI think it's the good intepretation for "kill yourself" and seems plausible.
May qatala have some meaning, but it often use for "murder,kill".Just read anykind of dictionaries, you may found is the word qatala always translated as murder.Intepretation of huruf is good, but I still need another members's arguments in here for reference.