What's So Scientific About Hadith?
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Possibly, however when there are numerous claims? or diff sources? Besides if you read hadith of Abu Huraira he gives his own opinion of his understanding... not many people notice that. Anyway he was just one example he is said to only have spent 2-4 years with the prophet (if it's disputed whether it's 2 or 4 what kind of accuracy is this?). Abu Huraira ain't the only one on the hadith list..
So if the claim is unreliable so be it, there are other issues within hadith
The sunni's will tell you this is insignificant info because Abu Huraira spent most of his time with the companions and not the prophet. Yeah, like that means anything (and I'm talking about the fact sunni's tell this to people, not that we know any of these assumptions are correct).
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Simple Answer NOTHING
What's so scientific about "Celebrities Gossip Shows"?
And the celebrities being mentioned has been DEAD for OVER 1400 YEARS!Salam / Peace
bravo exactly.
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The sunni's will tell you this is insignificant info because Abu Huraira spent most of his time with the companions and not the prophet. Yeah, like that means anything (and I'm talking about the fact sunni's tell this to people, not that we know any of these assumptions are correct).
I just did a search in Bukhari for the fun of it. There are only 2 hadiths I can find in relation to Abu Huraira?s memory; 1 praising it and another not.
If you?re interesting in reading
a bit weird logic, though in praise of him
003.034.263 - Sales and Trade - - - -
Narrated Abu Huraira
You people say that Abu Huraira tells many narrations from Allah's Apostle and you also wonder why the emigrants and Ansar do not narrate from Allah's Apostle as Abu Huraira does. My emigrant brothers were busy in the market while I used to stick to Allah's Apostle content with what fills my stomach; so I used to be present when they were absent and I used to remember when they used to forget, and my Ansari brothers used to be busy with their properties and I was one of the poor men of Suffa. I used to remember the narrations when they used to forget. No doubt, Allah's Apostle once said, "Whoever spreads his garment till I have finished my present speech and then gathers it to himself, will remember whatever I will say." So, I spread my colored garment which I was wearing till Allah's Apostle had finished his saying, and then I gathered it to my chest. So, I did not forget any of that narrations.And not in praise.. this is along hadith so just read the highlighted part
008.076.577 - To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq) - - - -
Narrated Abu Huraira
Some people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Dayof Resurrection?" He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the sun when it is not hidden by clouds?" They replied, "No, Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the moon when it is full and not hidden by clouds?" Theyreplied, No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "So you will see Him (your Lord) on the Day of Resurrection similarly Allah will gather all the people and say, 'Whoever used to worship anything should follow that thing. 'So, he who used to worship the sun, will follow it, and he whoused to worship the moon will follow it, and he who used to worship false deities will follow them; and then only this nation (i.e., Muslims) will remain, including their hypocrites. Allah will come to them in a shape other than they know and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'We seek refuge with Allah from you. This is our place;(we will not follow you) till our Lord comes to us, and when our Lord comes to us, we will recognize Him.Then Allah will come to then in a shape they know and will say, "I am your Lord.' They will say, '(No doubt) You are our Lord,' and they will follow Him. Then a bridge will be laid over the (Hell) Fire." Allah's Apostle added, "I will be the first to cross it. And the invocation of the Apostles on that Day, will be 'Allahukka Sallim, Sallim (O Allah, save us, save us!),' and over that bridge there will be hooks Similar to the thorns of As Sa'dan (a thorny tree). Didn't you see the thorns of As-Sa'dan?" The companions said, "Yes, O Allah'sApostle." He added, "So the hooks over that bridge will be like the thorns of As-Sa-dan except that their greatness in size is only known to Allah. These hooks will snatch the people according to their deeds.Some people will be ruined because of their evil deeds, and some will be cut into pieces and fall down in Hell, but will be saved afterwards, when Allah has finished the judgments among His slaves, and intends to take out of the Fire whoever He wishes to take out fromamong those who used to testify that none had the right to be worshipped but Allah.
We will order the angels to take them out and the angels will know them by the mark of the traces of prostration (on their foreheads) forAllah banned the f ire to consume the traces of prostration on the body of Adam's son. So they will take them out, and by then they wouldhave burnt (as coal), and then water, called Maul Hayat (water of life) will be poured on them, and they will spring out like a seed springs out on the bank of a rainwater stream, and there will remain one man who will be facing the (Hell) Fire and will say, 'O Lord! It's(Hell's) vapor has Poisoned and smoked me and its flame has burnt me; please turn my face away from the Fire.' He will keep on invoking Allah till Allah says, 'Perhaps, if I give you what you want), you will ask for another thing?' The man will say, 'No, by Your Power, I will not ask You for anything else.'Then Allah will turn his face away from the Fire. The man will say after that, 'O Lord, bring me near the gate of Paradise.' Allah will say (to him), 'Didn't you promise not to ask for anything else? Woe toyou, O son of Adam ! How treacherous you are!' The man will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will say, 'But if I give you that, you may ask me for something else.' The man will say, 'No, by Your Power. I will not ask for anything else.' He will give Allah his covenant and promise not to ask for anything else after that. So Allah will bring him near to the gate of Paradise, and when he sees what is in it, he will remain silent as long as Allah will, and then he will say, 'O Lord! Let me enter Paradise.' Allah will say, 'Didn't you promise thatyou would not ask Me for anything other than that? Woe to you, O son of Adam ! How treacherous you are!' On that, the man will say, 'O Lord! Do not make me the most wretched of Your creation,' and will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will smile and when Allah will smilebecause of him, then He will allow him to enter Paradise, and when he will enter Paradise, he will be addressed, 'Wish from so-and-so.' He will wish till all his wishes will be fulfilled, then Allah will say, All this (i.e. what you have wished for) and as much again therewith are for you.' "
Abu Huraira added That man will be the last of the people of Paradiseto enter (Paradise).
Narrated 'Ata (while Abu Huraira was narrating) Abu Said was sitting in the company of Abu Huraira and he did not deny anything of his narration till he reached his saying "All this and as much again therewith are for you." Then Abu Sa'id said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'This is for you and ten times as much.' " Abu Huraira said, "In my memory it is 'as much again therewith.'Of only two hadiths (in Bukhari) about Abu Huraira's memory.. it's kind of a weak claim that he has some extraordinary memory, don't you think?
Salam.
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Peace all,
I?ve been reading sunni books on hadith because I?m trying to find information in regards to the classification of ?matn/content? as it?s said as part of their methodology i.e. that matn is one aspect looked at to decipher whether a hadith is sahih or not.
Anyway I?ll share some things I found in a book I was reading ?Studies in hadith methodology and literature? by Muhammad Mustafa Azami.
When reading the book the author mentions that early muslims did not transmit any hadith to others unless approved by their scholars. The only source of hadith knowledge would be sort through the scholars only. I find this problematic because it would assume no one knows anything unless they talk to a scholar, it assumes people never talk about hadith nor spread things they have heard.. The author gives an example of a hadith being wrongly transmitted then finds the source of the wrong transmission (student) though finding the student wouldn?t have stopped the transmission or spread of the hadith.
Another weak point I found was the acceptance of a hadith if the person(trustworthy) repeats the same hadith the exact same way at a later date. I wouldn?t consider recalling a hadith the exact same as valid criticism, would slight different wording totally demoralise the hadith? Even if it had the same meaning. It seems odd to think so. I notice much focus is on the isnad(chain) and words.
Only one example is given in relation to method of criticism of hadith in comparison to Quran.
?We find that this method was used by
Umar in rejecting the hadith of Fatima bint Qais concerning maintenance money for divorced women. This method was also applied byAisha in several cases.? p.56I just thought.. you?re kidding me? Is that it? How do we know Umar rejected such hadith? Is it in hadith? Or hadith commentary? Assuming it?s both or neither and something else. What a poor example to give. I thought it didn?t even explain anything about hadith criticism based on Quran it just mentions an example without a reference of it just Umar recognised a contradiction and rejected it.
Ibn AlQayyim is said to come up with a system of hadith classification and mentions ?contradicts the clear and obvious meaning of Quran? (p.72) cancels out hadith. yet all I seem to see is this is part of classification but let?s look at how great the isnad system is and how complicated it is.
Lastly one point I thought was interesting was the mentioning of hadith booklets being in existence in the early days. He mentions that early booklets of hadith existed containing just mere collections of ahadith of the prophet though ?without any sort of arrangement of the material?p.73 I highlight this because if it?s just a mere saying, words of wisdom it would indicate no use of isnad? He doesn?t say that.. I make this assumption because not enough info is given. Either way it doesn?t seem to appease the mind
He further argues that the original hadith books ?slowly disappeared? because there was no need for them in the 3rd century. they compiled hadiths into categories and made hadith encyclopaedia?s so there was no need to keep them. What an excuse..
Have any of you read anything in regards to hadith matn/content?
I guess their idea of science is mentioning theories.
peace
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I would say that as a reference for history ahadith are an okay bet. Some non-Muslims rejected the entire corpus of ahadith, but this approach had been rubbished by academia at large, and most of the dissidents have seen redacted their own claims.
It is about the sayings of the Prophets that I am doubtful. As for ahadith attributed to his companions, there's the additional problem of which companion was speaking the truth and who was lying. So much for content, I guess.
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Okay bet? Sounds like speculation. I wouldn?t really focus on what non-muslims say about muslims they have their own agenda?s.
What I meant about content was just considering whether they would/have formulated a system in which ahadith in confluence of Quran are separately categorised and others in another section. Though I guess obviously not because they have books considered sahih with clear Quranic contradictions.
So it?s like where is this so called scientific content methodology?
history isn?t law.. but it?s something we can learn from. That being said history isn?t all truthful/factual.
Peace
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As in, hadith as history 'are an ok bet' is just guess work in itself.
The idea of any 'Scientific content methodology' applied to ahadith is an oxymoron.
That could be so, though I?m not looking at it from an outside perspective, I?m looking at it from their perspective. They are saying there is a science behind it, so ok fine. let?s see the science behind it. So all I am saying is this 'science' is poorly executed.
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Salamun alaikum,
Its as if the word 'science' is lending some sort of legitamacy to the haphazard collection of these 'reports' - even report is a strong word. I was wondering if in the 'science' of hadith classification, what place does the Quran have? Is there any document showing that the quran is consulted at all?
Just got banned (again) from a sunni site for asking that very same question - it was deemed 'too controversial'. There was a post on it referring to the speech of Mohammed being infallible or not, and as one person rightly concluded if he is infallible, then there can be no contradiction in the hadith, but as there are, it throws all the hadiths out! Amazing, and this guy didn't get banned!
Peace
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Got banned for asking that? Jeez, people are getting really sensitive. A few months back I got banned from a Christian site for suggesting that Paul might have had pagan interests; and once from a Muslim website just for the choice of my username (the thread was about 'tolerance,' by the way). But mostly because I uproot egos and false identities. Honestly, people are getting sensitive.
I think it is the word 'ulum' which gets translated as 'science'; from there 'ulumul Quran'. As far as their point of view is concerned, the branches dealing with the Quran are called 'tafsir' or 'taawil'. Generally, it involves referencing another verse, the alleged sayings traced back to Muhammad, and the alleged sayings traced back to his companions(?).
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Walaikum asalam darcus,
What do you mean "what place does the Quran have?"
Just got banned (again) from a sunni site for asking that very same question - it was deemed 'too controversial'. There was a post on it referring to the speech of Mohammed being infallible or not, and as one person rightly concluded if he is infallible, then there can be no contradiction in the hadith, but as there are, it throws all the hadiths out! Amazing, and this guy didn't get banned!
Well I guess it depends on your approach and rules. Hadiths aren't "authentic" to say it is proof of Mohammed's fallibility or infallibility.
Got banned for asking that? Jeez, people are getting really sensitive. A few months back I got banned from a Christian site for suggesting that Paul might have had pagan interests; and once from a Muslim website just for the choice of my username (the thread was about 'tolerance,' by the way). But mostly because I uproot egos and false identities. Honestly, people are getting sensitive.
I think it is the word 'ulum' which gets translated as 'science'; from there 'ulumul Quran'. As far as their point of view is concerned, the branches dealing with the Quran are called 'tafsir' or 'taawil'. Generally, it involves referencing another verse, the alleged sayings traced back to Muhammad, and the alleged sayings traced back to his companions(?).
I wouldn't be surprised you got banned because of your username.. i kinda took offence thinking why would someone identify themselves as 'thegod' but who knows maybe it's your way of remembrance, but personally i don't think it's nice.
hadiths have sayings of companions that just get cut at companions don't link back to the prophet. i think from memory they call it maqtou (cut off). BTW i haven't read much tafsir but i don't seem to see reference of hadith linkage to each and every verse.
My bro was telling me a man by the name Zamakhshari is a famous tafsir scholar but he is a Mutazilate. He was telling me his tafsir is the best or is considered the best in the sunni school of thought however they recognise him as a deviant but consider his work as gold because of his arabic and knowledge..
sounds conflicting but anyway thought it interesting because Mutazilites don't take traditional hadiths like mainstreamer's..
Peace
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People say hadith is a word of the Messenger s.a.s. other than the Qur'aan. What type of people are interested to take something from the Messenger s.a.s, it is depicted in the Grand Qur'aan
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/010.%20Yunus%20alahissalam/Temp%2001%2010.15b.gif
And when Our evident/distinct/Manifest Aaya'at were narrated to them, word by word,
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those amongst them who do not believe/look for meeting with Us, respond "You come to us with some readable material/book other than this Qur'aan or you change/replace this Qur'aan"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/010.%20Yunus%20alahissalam/Temp%2001%2010.15a.gif
You answer them, "It is not befitting for me that I should change/amend this Qur'aan with my personal perception/intellect/data-information/knowledge saved in the memory .
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/010.%20Yunus%20alahissalam/Temp%2001%2010.15c.gif
I only physically follow in letter and spirit that which is communicated to me".
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/010.%20Yunus%20alahissalam/Temp%2001%2010.15d.gif
I am afraid of the punishment of Great Day if I were to refuse to accept the word of My Sustainer Lord "http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/010.%20Yunus%20alahissalam/010.%20A%20Yunus%20alahissalam.htm
Those who relate to him stories/hadith other than the words of Qur'aan are certainly not afraid of the Day. He did not oblige his own tribe, residents of his city with some hadith other than Qur'aan though they kept insisting. Had he obliged them, Allah says they would have made and considered him a great friend, as is the case with hadith people who call themselves "Ashiq Rasool".
We must however acknowledge that non believers of his city never attributed to him a single statement/story except Qur'aan about which they had their own opinion.And Great Muslims, of whose position will there be no one till last Day, were frankly told this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.104a.gif
O you who declare to have accepted!
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53.gif
you people do not enter into the houses of the the Elevated and Chosen One except when the permission is given for you for a meal,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53a.gif
unlike such people who wait for its preparation for having come earlier,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53b.gif
but at that time when you are invited thereat you enter into his houses.
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Thereafter when you people have eaten the meal thereby you leave dispersing
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53d.gif
and do not act like those who keep themselves seated for seeking a hadith/story.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53e.gif
It is certain that this conduct has been causing disconcert/annoyance for the Elevated and Chosen Onehttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/033.%20D%20Al%20Ahzaab.htm
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Salamun alaikum,
Mazhar, I like your treatment of the subject, I had totally forgot 3353, great one.
Sarah, what I meant by 'what place does the Quran have?' is this
- I use the Quran as my criterion and judge religious information (especially including my own reasoning) against it, ensuring that IT is the Criterion I use.
- I would assume that the earliest scholars of sunni islam would have used the Quran as the starting point also as criterion, or didn't they?
I can't seem to find any mention of using the Quran as Criterion, apart from the occasional -"it must not contradict with it", but that is all the mention the Quran gets. I know when I asked that question it earned me an instant ban, and felt that maybe I was getting to the truth that it has in fact been ignored from the start.
Was wondering if anyone had come across something like that. Also, (off topic question) I have a few things I have researched and was wondering if I just post my 'research' in a topic, would that be ok - then to get criticism, make adjustments and then hopefully put on the articles section of the main site?
Peace
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Peace d,
Off course Quran is a criterion. it would be silly to assume that the whole sunni/shia world do not use Quran at all unless with reference with hadith. They DO use QURAN as a criterion.
There is alot of 'fiqh' rules in regards to translation etc i don't know it though i know they use tafsir from quran i.e. use quran source to understand quran verse (cross references), they also use hadith to 'further' understand quran and they also use scholarly thought and opinion to come with conclusions.
They got the ideas from the Quran in the first place.. not 'oh this a nice ideology let's adopt it make sure it's not contradictory.. sweet, let's add it!'
Remember everyone (generally) thinks/believes they're right and each have their own justifications. it's up to the individual to distinguish and reason what is or isn't right.
Post your research on the appropriate forum topics, create a new thread. you could pm a moderator to share/add your findings into the article section
peace.
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Mazhar, I like your treatment of the subject, I had totally forgot 3353, great one.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/023.%20Al%20Momenoon/23.65.gif
"Do not groan today. Indeed you people will not be helped by Us.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/023.%20Al%20Momenoon/23.66.gif
Indeed My Aa'ya'at were recited upon you people, word by word, whereupon you people used to turn back on your heels
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as self obsessed of pride arrogant about it/the Book-Grand Qur'aan, you people at night discussed-devised conjectures/random talks for roping away/limiting efficacy.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/023.%20Al%20Momenoon/023.D%20%20Al%20Momenoon.htm
And let us watch a video clip of Hereafter,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.28.gif
Woe to me, alas I had not taken such and such person as intimate friend.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.29.gif
Of course he made me forgetful and strayed from the Reminder/Admonition/the Book-, after that it had reached to me;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.29a.gif
and Shai'taan for man has always been a deserter.
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And the Messenger said, "O My Sustainer Lord! It is true that My Nation had made this Grand Qur'aan restricted "http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/025.%20B%20%20Al%20Furqan.htm
Decision has to be taken today.
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My bro was telling me a man by the name Zamakhshari is a famous tafsir scholar but he is a Mutazilate. He was telling me his tafsir is the best or is considered the best in the sunni school of thought however they recognise him as a deviant but consider his work as gold because of his arabic and knowledge..
sounds conflicting but anyway thought it interesting because Mutazilites don't take traditional hadiths like mainstreamer's..
Peace
In Muhammad Asad's English translation he mentions Zamakhshari quite a bit in the footnotes.