more damage is done than good

belH

The problem now is how do we solve some contradictions (as we thought) regarding the three books. Here are some of the contradictions

The Quran in chapter 260 we read the story of Moses striking a rock to provide water for the thirsty Israelites with a separate event. The Bible explains that Moses went with the people of Israel to Elim where there were twelve springs of water (see Exodus 1527); however, the rock Moses struck with his rod was in Horeb and from this rock exploded one spring and not twelve (see Exodus 171-6) (see also Numbers 208-11)
2)The Quran 2247-251 blends the stories of Saul and Gideon. The Quran says that the Prophet Samuel made Saul (whom the Quran names "Talut" due to his height) the king of Israel and in his days David killed Jalut (Goliath) in a fight (see 1 Samuel 15;17). The Quran then combines Saul with the Biblical account of Gideon's army in which the army was tested by drinking from the river when they were preparing to fight the Midianites (see Judges 71-. Therefore, the Quran mistakenly presents Talut (Saul) as Gideon and the war with the Philistines as the war with the Midianites even though the events occurred many years apart.
The crucifixion of Jesus
4)It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11) and Quran 7133
the golden calf worshiped by the Israelite was made by a samaritan as per quran but the bible recorded Haroun.

Peace,
When reading the Torah and Injeel, I always use the Quran as a Guidance...The reason I'm doing this is because the fact that translating the Original Language to different ones will alter the original Message. However, being an Arabic speaker, I read the Quran in its Original Language--Arabic.

As far as the Crucifixion of Jesus, I do not need even to read it, simply because it was written after Jesus was risen to God (hence, it is not part of the Injeel that was revealed to Jesus, which we should uphold).

If you use the Quran as your final Guidance, you will be able to identify the Man Made words from Gods.
peace

Imaani1

I dont agree that more damage than good is done than good in allowing people their own interpretations. Its in trying to create a docterine that you have to subscribe to (or your do not belong to the subscribing group) that you create serious divide.

Setting in stone a certain interpretation of anything doesnt allow you to interprate for yourself or evidence for yourself the message of the Quran and that is what is at the heart of it. I decided to join this group because I know that no matter how many disagree or agree with how/what I interprate in a verse or chapter I will not be labelled as a disbeliever as is happens with sects that have a take it or leave it interpretation of Quran that must be followed by all with sometimes devastating consequences such as war death persecution and seperation between those who are supposed to be following the best of instruction and heading in the direction of a straight path.

peace.

Farabi

We are better learn from the christiant mistake, sunnis is somewhat look alike the catolic and we are the protestant.Even when the protestant escaped to the USA and now become the most high tech country in the world it does not mean mean we must have a real war with those tradisionist.
Late or soon the tradisionist will end up like the catolics, worshiping statue, stone or cemetary. Some of this website members was right, we should not disctinct our selves and claimed as a non muslim, we are muslims.

We have to work together make the tradisionist read the quran on their own language. And we have to carry this job.

Bigmo

Topics we agree on are not debated, so they are not on the threads

EXACTLY!

Bigmo

Peace,
When reading the Torah and Injeel, I always use the Quran as a Guidance...The reason I'm doing this is because the fact that translating the Original Language to different ones will alter the original Message. However, being an Arabic speaker, I read the Quran in its Original Language--Arabic.

As far as the Crucifixion of Jesus, I do not need even to read it, simply because it was written after Jesus was risen to God (hence, it is not part of the Injeel that was revealed to Jesus, which we should uphold).

If you use the Quran as your final Guidance, you will be able to identify the Man Made words from Gods.
peace

I am not sure there was an Injeel that came to Jesus. There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Jesus we are told used to preach from the cradle and in childhood. So knowledge was always with him. The same is not true with Muhammad. Jesus was given signs and so was Moses. The same is not true of Muhammad. So we must not always assume that a Quran like scripture came down to any other prophet. WE make that assumptions always and therefore we assume something Quran like got lost from the days of Moses. Remember after Moses was David and Solomon and many other prophets. Yet nothing of that sort exists and there is no evidence that they existed. We know from the OT that there were for authors or maybe five. There were communications that occured between God and the prophets but there is no evidence that a Quran like scripture that came down to any other prophet like Muhammad. But then again Muhammad had no miracles to show his people so the Quran was the sign given to him. WE know the Psalms is the poetry of David. Even if David was not the one who authored it entirely, there is no way to see that the Psalms was Quran like since its David's peotry. These scriptures like the OT and NT were always like that. They are a combination of hadiths and hadith qudsis. We know that God communicatd with Moses and asked Moses some questions like his rod. This is not the style of language of the Quran. The Quran tells and does not ask and wait for response. Its unique in that sense and Jesus was unique in the sense that he did not need an encounter later in his life with God. He was born into it. Moses meanwhile had some for of direct communication with God.

This needs a lot more research but we should not assume that a Quran like scriptures came down revealing itself in stages and occassions as the Quran. The name Quran itself shows a continual flow of literature that is to be recited. The Quran was Muhammad's sign. The pagans aksed for some signs and the Quran says the Quran itself is the sign and its enough as a divine sign.

We need to be more subltle when we hear words like "brought down" or "revealed" and "gave to" in the Quran as we jump into conclusions thats these were Quran like scriptures.

What we do know is by the time the Quran came down, these scriptures are exactly the same way as today. So the Quran knows these scriptures and never claimed to speak for any other scriptures when refering to them. WE also know that not everything that God communicated with the Israelites is in these scriptures as we know not everything God commincated with Jesus is in the NT. But we also know not everything God communicated with Muhamamd is in the Quran.

But the Quran sees these scriptures in equal footing. We need to have a dialogue with historians and Christian historians regarding this. But we must not assume things. This is one of the traps of being a Quranist is we often assume things without actually researching.

Bigmo

We are better learn from the christiant mistake, sunnis is somewhat look alike the catolic and we are the protestant.Even when the protestant escaped to the USA and now become the most high tech country in the world it does not mean mean we must have a real war with those tradisionist.
Late or soon the tradisionist will end up like the catolics, worshiping statue, stone or cemetary. Some of this website members was right, we should not disctinct our selves and claimed as a non muslim, we are muslims.

We have to work together make the tradisionist read the quran on their own language. And we have to carry this job.

The protestants believe in the trinity more tha n catholics. So its not our business what their differences are. They are like Sunnis and Shias in their differences. We need to seperate the NT from religious sects as we do with the Quran and the Islamic sects. I am interested with the Gospel and OT and not religious sects.

AS far as worshiping cemetery and so on. This is another assumption we make. WE think we know whats idol worshipping and whats polytheism but we don't do research. If we do we would know that polytheism and paganism has nothing to do with what Christians or Sunnis do. Paganism is a radically different theology thats completely different from anything like Christianity. I do understand that the trinity feels pagan lik but a careful study of paganism reveals is nowhere near the pagans the Quran was talking about. Once again we do not do enough research.

As the movement grows hopefully more expertise and academic knowledge will come our way. Right now we are relying on the internet for most of our info.

Remember just because something looks or sounds similar does not mean its similar.

Here is my take on polytheism and paganism

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599517.15

Its only a single lecture but its the best I can get so far in the net.

Farabi

The protestants believe in the trinity more tha n catholics. So its not our business what their differences are. They are like Sunnis and Shias in their differences. We need to seperate the NT from religious sects as we do with the Quran and the Islamic sects. I am interested with the Gospel and OT and not religious sects.

AS far as worshiping cemetery and so on. This is another assumption we make. WE think we know whats idol worshipping and whats polytheism but we don't do research. If we do we would know that polytheism and paganism has nothing to do with what Christians or Sunnis do. Paganism is a radically different theology thats completely different from anything like Christianity. I do understand that the trinity feels pagan lik but a careful study of paganism reveals is nowhere near the pagans the Quran was talking about. Once again we do not do enough research.

As the movement grows hopefully more expertise and academic knowledge will come our way. Right now we are relying on the internet for most of our info.

Remember just because something looks or sounds similar does not mean its similar.

Here is my take on polytheism and paganism

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599517.15

Its only a single lecture but its the best I can get so far in the net.

Im not saying about their view about trinity but our probability to have war with the tradisionist.

OKay, thanks for your opinion. But have you see the youtube video of pakistan muslim?
And also, you should come here and see what I mean.

huruf

Sorry was posted twice

huruf

I think that a sect is created every time anybody thinks his or her idea or ideas should be imposed on somebody else because they are the right ones and all the other wrong. I hope I will never say somebody is not a muslim till somebody says it him or herself, and even then, even if they say so they may be lying to themselves. The fact is that there are as many "sects" as persons, because, as somebody has pointed out with an aya from the Quran, each one has his own path which may be the most feasible for him or her, but not for anybody else. Sects are created when people think themselves apart or others apart. The fact is that we are all in the same boat, and nobody should be thrown overboard, unless he or her jumps himself. It is not our business to judge humanity, any human being. Till God sets us right , everything, our opinions, honest opinions, are good enough to be true believers, if we are dishonest, then then there is nothing more to say, only us and God know. But for as long as they are honest and intend to be honest, we shoudl deal with what we have, and let God do a job which is too big for us.

I am willing to stick together with whoever wants to stick together, no matter the differences. Differences are just a way to make us understand. What seems obvious to me, may be is not obvious for others. ?What can I do? They may be find them obvious some day or not. There are many things I saw completely wrong at a time, but still, I think, I was in my path, so I was wong, but I was in the right path. And still I may be plagued by mistakes and errors, but I pray to God that I am on the right path. And I trust that most people are on the right path, even if full of mistakes. Being a muslim is not a motionless state with fixed parameters, but a jorney and a yihad with moving poles. With our struggle we help others to struggle. Differences are not a curse but a blessing. If there were none, we would become stones. And may be that is what happened to Shaytan when he refused to postrate to the human being, when he rejected our paths, our wrongs, the nature God gave us.

Sects are the punishment of God for lack of Openess, of Generosity, of Faith and Hope.

Salaam

belH

I am not sure there was an Injeel that came to Jesus. There is no evidence of that whatsoever.

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544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
545 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

And if they had upheld the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and from beneath their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but most of them only do evil.
566

Say O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejectors 568