Safaa and Al Marwah
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2158
safaa from root
sad fa waw
to have pure/good intentionmarwa
could be from root mim-ra-waw see Lane page 2702 hamza is on top of waw basically means virtue http//img4.imageshack.us/img4/7994/marwa.th.jpg
click on image to see better, or http//img4.imageshack.us/img4/7994/marwa.jpgTay-Waw-Fa = act of going/walking, going/walking around or otherwise, to go or wander about, circuited/compassed, journeyed, came to him, come upon, visitation, visit, approach, drew near, to go round or round about often, encompass, "the men/people/locusts filled the land like the TWF/flood/deluge", overpowering/overwhelming rain/water that covers, a servant that serves one with gentleness and carefulness, a detached/distinct part/portion, a piece or bit, a party/division/sect, a sort of raisins of which the bunches are composed of closely-compacted berries, a garment in which one goes round or circuits, a place of going round or round about.
My understanding of the verse is then
Indeed the good intention and the virtue are practices from the God, anyone Hajj the Beit or i3tamara no blame on him to drew near these 2, And if anyone obeyeth his own impulse to Goodbe sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
Regards
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Peace herbman
Here is my understanding of the verse
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.msg220975#msg220975
Imraan
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Peace herbman
Peace 1CELOSTNOWFOUND ,
I've read your post, which I found very interesting. I need to study it more deeply to get to any conclusion. My first comment/critic will be on word "beit" or have you tried to see if it fits in other verses?
regards
The study I am doing on hajj is far from complete, so nothing of my current understanding of relevant verses is set in stone. It is a study in progress. I find it helpful throwing ideas out while they are being formulated in order to head off mistakes in my thought processes and studies earlier rather than later.
As for , the root baa-yaa-taa definitely seems to indicate staying awake through the night. I have looked at how it fits in other verses and there are verses where it fits well and others that may not fit well. However the meaning of the term is not restricted to only the meaning I have suggested as it can be understood as house. A house was probably named "bayt" because of the purpose it serves for people at night.
Some of the more obvious verses where the understanding of the derivatives of "bayt" comes through in the sense I have suggested are 481, 4108, 74, 797, 1050, 2564, 2749.
Any input on this concept of "bayt" will be appreciated.
Also, has anyone looked into the possibility that the word as used in the context of hajj could have a broader meaning related to its root of nun-ayn-mim. If this is the case, the sharing would more likely be referring to keeping what God has provided open to all, rather than a mere feast, which does not make much sense to me.
Imraan
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afaik its not in lane, see 531 of dictionary of holy quran by manar, says "flintstones". I believe the definitions in prl were found in other classical arbic dictionaries, see baheth.info
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Peace
Some problems, as I see it, with (as some established members here do) translating 2158 as 'The livestock (al safaa) lined up for slaughter and the stone on which they are slaughtered/cooked is from what the god makes us aware with' is if you search for shaari Allah, you get taken to 2236 and the term al budna, which essentially means a lump of meat and is translated fairly as cattle.
Why is this term not used in 2158, when you are translating them the same, yet they are both signs of God.
Furthermore, I do not see the term 'slaughter' used anywhere in 2158 unless you are using it with al safaa and al marwah, which of course is not based on the text.
A big problem seems to be identifying the root of al marwah.
Roshan
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peace Roshan, all,
I assume you read the links I referenced above. The root of marwah is stated in the links, unless you meant finding meanings for this root is problematic.
In any case, you bring up an interesting point which may help us clarify the meaning. I chose "animals of milking" for "al ssafa" in 2158, whilst 2236 uses "al budna" which from PRL can mean "cow/camel/bull/goat, animals of sacrifice/slaughter" or could refer to "aged/weak/heavy/big animals".
It is unlikely "al budna" would be one specific animal only, as that would mean God giving a special status to one over others, so it could either mean non-milking animals (if there is such a thing) are the ones slaughtered, or animals of the type that are routinely slaughtered (if there is a preference) or the "aged/heavy/big animals".
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Salaam herbman,
I've read your post, which I found very interesting. I need to study it more deeply to get to any conclusion. My first comment/critic will be on word "beit" or have you tried to see if it fits in other verses?
There is a difference between "Bayt" and "AlBayt" brother. Just to remind you.
"AlBayt" always comes with a reference to hajj.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanOops! After this post I realize the I replied to a post of year 2009
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2158
It is a fact that the As-Safa and Al-Marwata are long regarded as amongst Allah's symbolic emblems. Therefore for that consideration there is nothing wrong and cause of remorse upon someone, on annual pilgrimage to the House-Ka'aba or if he otherwise made himself visit the House , that he may affectionately walk in between those two. And who ever listened and willingly accepted the urge for excelling in righteous/good things, since it is a fact that Allah is The Recognizer-appreciatively acknowledger being eternally All Knowing.
2158-Word by Word Analysis
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Narrated 'Asim bin Sulaiman (Radi-Allahu 'anhu)
I asked Anas bin Malik about Safa and Marwa. Anas replied, "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Makkah) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the 'Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.158
'Urwa b. Zabair reported I said to 'A'isha, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) I do not see any (fault) in one who does not circumambl" te between al-Safa' and al-Marwa, and I do not mind if I do not circumambulate between them, whereupon she said O, the son of my sister, what you say is wrong. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) observed Sa'i and so did the Muslims. So it is a Sunnah (of the Prophet). And it was a common practice (with the pagan Arabs) that those who pronounced Talbiya for the wretched al-Manat, situated at Mushalla, did not observe Sa'i between al-Safa' and al-Marwa. With the advent of Islam, we asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) about this practice, and (it was on this occasion) that Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, revealed this verse" Verily al-Safa' and al-Marwa are among the Signs of Allah" ; so he who performed Hajj or 'Umra it is no sin on him if he circumambulates them. And if it were as you state, (then the wording would have been)" There is no harm for him, that he should not circumambulate round them." Zuhri said I made a mention of that to Abu Bakr b. 'Abd al- Rahman b. al-Harith b. Hisham; he was impressed by that and said This is what is called knowledge. And I have heard many a scholar saying Many of the Arabs who did not circumambulate between al-Safa' and al-Marwa caid Our circumambulation between these two hills is an act of ignorance; whereas others among the Ansar said We have been commanded to circumambulate the House, and not Commanded to run between al-Safa' and al-Marwa. So Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, revealed thia verse" Verily al-Safa' and al-Marwa are among the Signs of Allah." Abu Bakr b. 'Abd al-Rahman said I think that this (verse) has been revealed for such and such (persons).
Like I said before, many of these rituals were performed by the pagan arabs before Islam. The Koran wanted it to be done for God alone and not for idols. These rituals are common among mankind, but its to whom these rituals are done for that is the question. The story of Abraham and Hagar is fabricated since the Old Testament tells us that incident with the baby ismael occurred in Bersheeba and not Mecca, I think that the sects wanted to give Mecca a sense of exclusivity so as not have a rival haj somewhere else. After all people in Egypt and Iraq pray there and fast there. So would they not want to have a haj there also? Hence the need for some exclusivity. We know during the Ummyaids a rival Ka'ba was built by rival political parties.
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Narrated 'Asim bin Sulaiman (Radi-Allahu 'anhu)
I asked Anas bin Malik about Safa and Marwa. Anas replied, "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Makkah) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the 'Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.158
'Urwa b. Zabair reported I said to 'A'isha, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) I do not see any (fault) in one who does not circumambl" te between al-Safa' and al-Marwa, and I do not mind if I do not circumambulate between them, whereupon she said O, the son of my sister, what you say is wrong. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) observed Sa'i and so did the Muslims. So it is a Sunnah (of the Prophet). And it was a common practice (with the pagan Arabs) that those who pronounced Talbiya for the wretched al-Manat, situated at Mushalla, did not observe Sa'i between al-Safa' and al-Marwa. With the advent of Islam, we asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) about this practice, and (it was on this occasion) that Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, revealed this verse" Verily al-Safa' and al-Marwa are among the Signs of Allah" ; so he who performed Hajj or 'Umra it is no sin on him if he circumambulates them. And if it were as you state, (then the wording would have been)" There is no harm for him, that he should not circumambulate round them." Zuhri said I made a mention of that to Abu Bakr b. 'Abd al- Rahman b. al-Harith b. Hisham; he was impressed by that and said This is what is called knowledge. And I have heard many a scholar saying Many of the Arabs who did not circumambulate between al-Safa' and al-Marwa caid Our circumambulation between these two hills is an act of ignorance; whereas others among the Ansar said We have been commanded to circumambulate the House, and not Commanded to run between al-Safa' and al-Marwa. So Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, revealed thia verse" Verily al-Safa' and al-Marwa are among the Signs of Allah." Abu Bakr b. 'Abd al-Rahman said I think that this (verse) has been revealed for such and such (persons).
Like I said before, many of these rituals were performed by the pagan arabs before Islam. The Koran wanted it to be done for God alone and not for idols. These rituals are common among mankind, but its to whom these rituals are done for that is the question. The story of Abraham and Hagar is fabricated since the Old Testament tells us that incident with the baby ismael occurred in Bersheeba and not Mecca, I think that the sects wanted to give Mecca a sense of exclusivity so as not have a rival haj somewhere else. After all people in Egypt and Iraq pray there and fast there. So would they not want to have a haj there also? Hence the need for some exclusivity. We know during the Ummyaids a rival Ka'ba was built by rival political parties.
well bigmo, Islam as we know it today is one big mess contained of early paganism, christianity, judaism, the real islam, old arabic culture and traditions, mullah opinions, conjecture and guesses, political agendas and a whole bunch of mythes regarding some muhammad. So its a very very confused religion. Safa and Marwa is just one of those pagan rituals before Islam. just one ritual which is confusing its followers.
No wonder why many sunnies or shiites when becoming quranists actually remains to be half-sunnis or half-shiites. They are victims of all that confusionMaybe we shall start a new topic to discover and expose all the paganism in traditional islam confused confused I wonder how much ''islam'' there would be back after that rotfl
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well bigmo, Islam as we know it today is one big mess contained of early paganism, christianity, judaism, the real islam, old arabic culture and traditions, mullah opinions, conjecture and guesses, political agendas and a whole bunch of mythes regarding some muhammad. So its a very very confused religion. Safa and Marwa is just one of those pagan rituals before Islam. just one ritual which is confusing its followers.
No wonder why many sunnies or shiites when becoming quranists actually remains to be half-sunnis or half-shiites. They are victims of all that confusionMaybe we shall start a new topic to discover and expose all the paganism in traditional islam confused confused I wonder how much ''islam'' there would be back after that rotfl
Paganism is a theology and not a ritual. There is nothing called a pagan ritual. Its only pagan if the ritual is dedicated to idols and gods.
http//academicearth.org/lectures/biblical-religion
