Is Allah All Loving?
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Just remembered this thread )
Thx for the fb.
- Are you really going to call someone a sinner? I hope not
well, i hope you will never. )
- Has God ever, personally, called a real living person in his/her life on earth, a sinner?" I don't know, Pharoah I think ...
God did tell Fir`aun through Musa.
- Which is more sound for you to say to someone who got addicted in say, drinking "we love the drinkers!" or "we love the sobers!"? Both, I love them because of the spirit God, the Wadud, Ar Rahman, etc breathed into him. I still hate the abuse of alchohol, though.
Yeah me too... so then why say to them "we love the drinkers!" instead of saying personally "we love you"? and why not encourage him/her with "we love the sobers!" (especially when he/she is trying to be sober)?
- Which is more sound "God loves the sinner" or "God loves the returner"? I think God loves both yet both seem to reep different rewards or levels of enlightenment because of their proximity with sin.
Same case here ... imo, there is no benefit whatsoever in encouraging the word "sinner" (negative tone, spiraling down, psyche-torturing) to anyone with psyche (or soul, mind, heart, feeling ... ). Instead, encouraging anyone to be a "returner" (positive tone, spiraling up, psyche-nurturing). See where we are going? AQ encourages the use of positive words, and i have to say that the recent and current "positive psychology" movement is precedented by a scripture revealed 1400 years ago. Think Positive. Why see the sinner inside a person when you can see the returner in that person?
- Which part of "God does not love the sinner" negates God's love for any real person? If God does not love the sinner and the sinner is a real person than God's love for a real person is negated. God judges who the sinner is. Maybe I got your point messed up.
- And just how do you know that?
that's just what i meant, how do you know that? ) -- the burden is on the person who placed another person in the place of a "sinner". As you said, God judges who the sinner is. Why should you or me do that?
But suddenly, God comes down and tells me, my kid is a sinner.
then wait until that happens, if it will. Now i think it is your burden to assume God will do such and such... CMIIW )
Finally,
If you preferred to use "like" in replacement to "love", then i think it is fine, as that might be your best solution on this matter--maybe for the majority of English readers as well. Though by "like" i think you better take it to its strongest notion (of "like"-ness).
Many have made a point on "hubb". The root word "ra-Ha-miim" (raHmaan, raHiym) should be taken into consideration when discussing about the "love" of Allah. It could be that "raHmaan" is the Love that encompasses everything and "raHiym" is the "more than Love", and "hubb" is the preference shown in this life (through revelation) as to guide people to get nearer to God--perhaps to reach the "raHiym" of God.
God knows best.
Peace! )
P.S.
Also (this is more of a side issue), you say everything comes from God. True...Thus, I think that when the quran says evil comes from us,
Isn't this the verse we're referring to
478 Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from Allah ." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?
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You say
"Yeah me too... so then why say to them "we love the drinkers!" instead of saying personally "we love you"? and why not encourage him/her with "we love the sobers!" (especially when he/she is trying to be sober)?"My posts are beginning to get repetitive but the idea is "you" is the "drinker." I know you don't like levying such judgement on people so I said God came down and told you he is a drinker. Now, by some definitions of hubb, God neither loves the drinker or the you since they are on in the same. I disagree.
Lets agree to disagree.
Peace -
My posts are beginning to get repetitive but the idea is "you" is the "drinker." I know you don't like levying such judgement on people so I said God came down and told you he is a drinker. Now, by some definitions of hubb, God neither loves the drinker or the you since they are on in the same. I disagree.
Lets agree to disagree.
PeaceSo are mine... and yes we see things differently. Good
One-to-one, i see no drinker. Either i see "you" or "a man trying to be sober".
So either i say "i love you" or "i love the sobers!"
Ostensibly Na?ve and Pragmatic.
peace
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Peace all,
This is a really old (and probably forgotten) discussion but I would just like to say that I think I have come to accept San's interpretation as 100% viable. Allah can not love the transgressor and still retain his all loving status if the idea of "transgressor" is separated from the actual person. This is what I think you were getting at San (correct me if I am wrong). Allah may hate the transgressor but that never is the complete make up of the person. Rather, they still retain the soul that Allah has made for them from himself that I talked about above. So Allah can still love this pure soul, which I can contend is who we truly are, and hate the transgressor who is devoid of the soul and who impurifies allahs creation. In cases like these where there are two viable interpretations of a verse that I can think of, I get reminded of the verse, "Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding." - Quran 3918
Peace -
I read and browsed the discussion on this topic and I would like to thank all the participants for this enlightening theological and philosophical discussion.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace all,
This is a really old (and probably forgotten) discussion but I would just like to say that I think I have come to accept San's interpretation as 100% viable. Allah can not love the transgressor and still retain his all loving status if the idea of "transgressor" is separated from the actual person. This is what I think you were getting at San (correct me if I am wrong). Allah may hate the transgressor but that never is the complete make up of the person. Rather, they still retain the soul that Allah has made for them from himself that I talked about above. So Allah can still love this pure soul, which I can contend is who we truly are, and hate the transgressor who is devoid of the soul and who impurifies allahs creation. In cases like these where there are two viable interpretations of a verse that I can think of, I get reminded of the verse, "Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding." - Quran 3918
PeaceHi YGET,
Reading your words above, in the situation i'm in right now, i feel glad, and relieved, thank you. I did wrong things. A lot. The "pure soul" as you said it, i think, or more accurately, i feel, has a power so strong to return to its owner. That is if the soul and the Creator were separated by any distance at all. It's always pulling me back.
When i see myself as a sinner, i can't give myself a chance to view things positively. I just asked myself, believe it but please don't ask, 'should i live or not?' Because i don't know which one i would do more bad or good. I just can't think right when i position myself as a sinner. This is the moment that i should begin to think of myself as a "returner". Because i am so in need for hope. I cannot accept the wronger in me to be who i am. I can't. Because i want to be good. i want to be kind. laugh, but i weep like a child as i write this, signs of weakness or strength .. i don't care. Sorry, maybe i don't even really get what you were saying i need to clear up my mind first. I just want you to know how i came to choose the view that i hold, personally.
Thank you.
peace & love
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What is love?
Allah is not flesh as we are. There is nothing that is of his likeness. Love is but a chemical state of mind.
Prime example of allegory taken literally. -
Interesting debate. I will say something which will not be an improvement on the previouys messages, but still...
In a sense I see this my God your God as childisch scrabble. God, in the Quran speaks to us. ?Is that the mind of God, the whole mind of God? ?Come on! He is talking to us and we are his creatures. And he is talking to include those who are or might be horrible transgressors or vicious beasts. Going back to the parents addressing a vivious child, what are you going to tell him, don't worry I love you I will forgive you everyhting. Not a single good parent would do that.
On the other hand God's love is written all over the generous Qur'an on top of every chapter, The most Gracious, the most merciful.
I wonder from where got the christian person the idea that the Christian Hod is gretar or better than the muslim, the Bible encloses rel pieces of "love", my God if we are going to guide ourselves by that.
Sometimes some christians talk as if they had patented love.
Also in Arabic there are many words for love which would translate differently or not into English. In this case hubb would probably fall on the side of likes and dislikes, but obviously 100% coincidence doesn't give. So God may nt love or like transgressors, but still He is always most gracious, moust forgiving and most merciful.
Salaam
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Interesting debate. I will say something which will not be an improvement on the previouys messages, but still...
In a sense I see this my God your God as childisch scrabble. God, in the Quran speaks to us. ?Is that the mind of God, the whole mind of God? ?Come on! He is talking to us and we are his creatures. And he is talking to include those who are or might be horrible transgressors or vicious beasts. Going back to the parents addressing a vivious child, what are you going to tell him, don't worry I love you I will forgive you everyhting. Not a single good parent would do that.
On the other hand God's love is written all over the generous Qur'an on top of every chapter, The most Gracious, the most merciful.
I wonder from where got the christian person the idea that the Christian Hod is gretar or better than the muslim, the Bible encloses rel pieces of "love", my God if we are going to guide ourselves by that.
Sometimes some christians talk as if they had patented love.
Also in Arabic there are many words for love which would translate differently or not into English. In this case hubb would probably fall on the side of likes and dislikes, but obviously 100% coincidence doesn't give. So God may nt love or like transgressors, but still He is always most gracious, moust forgiving and most merciful. Salaam
You seem to be very kind woman )