The Quran is a Christian composition
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Of course, the assumption that the Arabic "quran" should be understood as the Syriac "qeryana" would require some sort of justification; even the propagandists know that. And this "justification" comes in form of more assumptions discontinuity and conspiracy, among others.
Johannes Jansen of Leiden University makes the following assertion about "Luxenberg"
Luxenberg is not a professor at a German university, he is a Lebanese Christian. This would explain Luxenberg's 'Christian agenda' Christians from the Middle East have been involved in harsh religious debates with Muslims for centuries.While the Middle Eastern Christian sees the Quran as a "reading" of the Christian Scriptures, the Jew has his own interests to look after.
And before anybody harbors a misconception about Jansen, know that he has devoted much of his life seeking an alternate account of Muhammad, and his understanding of the Quranic characterization of non-Muslims led him to a rather creative title for a book of his "Islam for Pigs, Apes, Donkeys and Other Animals".
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I'm absolutely baffled as to what you're unhappy with. Recitation and reading aloud mean exactly the same thing, so I don't see any difference between Arabic and Syrian-Aramaic in regards to the question of the meaning of Quran or "qeryana".
Is the Quran a reading, or interpretation, of the bible? Well, some of the stories are the same, some of them are different or unique. To me it seems perfectly reasonable to view the recitation of the Quran as in the same cultural tradition as Jewish and Christian devotional reading/singing.
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You don't see a difference between "recitation" and "reading (of Christian Scriptures)"?
The difference between "recitation" and "reading" is pedantic (as I already mentioned in a previous post), but the context given to "reading" by the Christians is that of Christian theology. And to the Christians this seems perfectly reasonable.
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chatmember
Nothing like a little fresh air. Western research has shown that your Islam is a cult that originated from somewhere to the north...
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And what about the findings of the Koran scholar Luxenberg? He has shown that while you blow yourselfs up for heavenly virgins what you really get are white grapes. LOL...
...and has shown that also your Koran was really a reading of the passages from the books of our Bible and writings of the church fathers.
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An emotionally charged Christian, she does not read anything that I message (or pretends not to have read), and keeps railing off one message after another.
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I have started a thread at www.free-minds.org and at another website. Drop by if and when you have the time
http//free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=959
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599647.msg235503
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You don't have to worry about trolls, they can enjoy themselves without our help. But yes - I don't see why it matters whether or not "reading" and "recitation" comes from a cultural context where the same term was used about the bible as the quran.
The early Christians used to have a lot in common with Muslims. Not only did they sing the scriptures in the same way as Muslims, they also used to pray in the same way, with systematic bowing, kneeling and putting their forehead on the floor.
But when Christianity became dominated by Greeks and Romans they gave that up and just sat on their Church pews listening to their priest and drinking their wine. We muslims have far more in common with the early Semitic/Aramaic Christians.
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For me "Luxenberg" is no less a troll than our agitated friend out there, or any other Christian who assumes under assumptions.
The sixth-seventh century Christians are not early Christians. I hope you will point out the similarity between the Quran and the "Scriptures" they read from.
Again, could you elaborate this "singing" of the Quran? Also, the assumption the Christians labor under is that the word "qeryana" has been manipulated to be read as "quran"; if you subscribe to it then provide some evidence thereof.
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The book of the bible which I find is most similar to the Quran is the book of Isaiah, the writing is not poetic like the Quran, but the symbolism in it, for example making frequent reference to the destruction of Sodom as the Quran does, makes me see it as being in a similar tradition.
6-7th Century Christians in Rome or Byzantium would not be early Christians, as they were deep enough in the Empire to be totally under the sway of the Niecean creed. But in Syria they would be out of reach of Imperial religious power and were thus much less influenced by catholic-orthodox dogma, so were more like early Christians.
When I hear the Quran recited in a singing voice with tune and melody, as it traditionally is, I call that singing. I know Sunni muslims take offence to this and say it is not singing, and some even say singing is haram, but they're just silly.
Is the only thing you have against Luxenberg that he is quoted at you by evangelical christians online?
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The book of Isaiah is not the only book that "qeryana" consists of; apart from that, singing about Sodom does not make a case for Quran being the Christian "qeryana".
Could you provide a glimpse into the literature of the sixth-seventh century Syrian Christians? The girl I quoted seems to know that "qeryana" consisted of reading from the "Church Fathers" too.
The Quran recited as a melody or in a singing tone is not the same as "Quran" itself being "singing".
"Luxenberg" fits pretty well under the label "Evangelist" himself. Also, "Quran is qeryana" is not his brainchild.
I clarified it a while back that there is no intention to isolate "Luxenberg," rather to highlight the circular reasoning his likes use. If he or anybody else could offer something more tangible than assumptions then it might be worth a dekko, but assuming under assumptions does not make a case.
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Another example of circular reasoning (abetted by conjecture)
Bedouins of the Hijaz on their caravan journeys to Syria and other Christian centers undoubtedly carried back with them a superficial knowledge of Christian beliefs and customs. Dissident Christian sects, mostly of the Monophysite confession, and numerous monks turned ascetics had their retreats in the steppes of north Arabia along caravan routes. As a caravan leader, Muhammad is supposed to have befriended a Christian monk, Babira; it is said that he even wore tunics which were the gifts of other Christian monks. Two Christianized Arab tribes, Judham and
Udhra, roamed the Hijaz. According to local tradition, there were even Christian religious artifacts in the Kabah at Mecca.It is not unlikely that Muhammad may have exchanged religious views with monks, even with Christians who possessed some formal knowledge of Christian theology. Jacobites and Nestorians. are known to have conducted active missionary activities among the pagan tribes of Arabia; indeed, priests and deacons were assigned to each tribe, and in Najran the Monophysites had established churches which, when persecuted by dhu-Nuwas, invited Abyssinian intervention. Monasteries astride caravan routes were open day and night to traveling caravans and roaming Bedouins. Here, besides receiving food and shelter, they undoubtedly had occasion to 'observe such practices as praying, fasting, and alms giving three of the five basic injunctions of Islam. The Nestorians had established schools and some churches in many of the towns frequented by Arab tribesmen of the Hijaz.
Given how popular the view is, that must be pretty conclusive to many Christians (and possibly other non-Muslims).
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It's conjecture, but why circular?
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The way I see things is that when the message of God is given to a Prophet, it is like water pouring into a container. Whatever the form of the container, be it a glass, or a bottle, the water takes that shape, but its substance remains the same - it is still water.
Hence since the Prophet was from Mecca, he spoke Arabic, and the framework of ideas and examples given in the Quran are based upon this, it mentions tribes that we now would never have otherwise heard of from elsewhere. But the substance of what he is saying is constant regardless of culture.
Thus it really does not matter to me whether the Arabic he spoke was traditional Bedouin Arabic or christianised Syrian Aramaic. If there are Syrian influences, if some of the cultural references made in the Quran are from a Christian-Syrian-Aramaic context, this is only the shape of the cup, it does not affect the substance of the meaning of the Quran, which is the 'water' God pours into it.
In the case of the grapes/virgins example - of course this doesn't matter. The whole passage is only symbolic anyway - the Quran tells us so in 3007
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.
If suicide bombers are disappointed in the afterlife, it's not going to be anything to do with food or sex. It'll be whether they find themselves in the right place or not.
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I agree that Luxunberg is an idiot, but the relation between Quran and Qeryana isn't so easily dismissed. Another flaw in his reasoning is that Qeryana is distinctly Christian. But look at Qeryana Ha Kefa. Considering the casual usage of the word Quran within the Quran itself it's safe to say it was a familiar word for everyone.
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Peace,
About that black eyed virigin phrase, it is more important to discover alternative meanings in Arabic and its grammar and not try to look outside the language. When studying this I found that hoorun 'aynun could even mean 'clear intelligence.' I believe i saw this in hawaa's classical Arabic dictionary with some evidence of how the different verbal nouns of form one can be synonymous. It might take me some time to dig this back up. It was some years ago when I was researching it.
Also reading 5628-5636 I think helps understand the more traditional interpretation. It is obviously talking about believing women being brought back as pure and untouched. There is only one problem. If Christians or Jews didn't have a meaning for hoorun meaning virgin of paradise then this meaning robably didn't exist at the time of the Quran, because the pagan Arabs according to the Quran denied a life after their earthly life. Also the meaning of black eyed would be a little racist. If God created many eye colors in this world and God will resurrect us just as we were, THEN that means there will be many eye colors amongst the women in paradise. That is why it is important to find ALL the meanings of the word and also do some grammatical analysis of its form and if it can be a plural or verbal noun of some other word (with the same root of course) that carries different meaning.
Godbless,
Anwar -
HEre are some of M. Asad's comments on the topic
The noun hur - rendered by me as "companions pure" - is a plural of both ahwar (masc.) and hawra (fem.), either of which describes "a person distinguished by hawar", which latter term primarily denotes "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the iris" (Qamus). In a more general sense, hawar signifies simply "whiteness" (Asas) or, as a moral qualification, "purity" (cf. Tabari, Razi and Ibn Kathir in their explanations of the term hawariyyun in 352 ). Hence, the compound expression hur?in signifies, approximately, "pure beings , most beautiful of eye" (which latter is the meaning of in, the plural of a?yan). In his comments on the identical expression in 5220, Razi observes that inasmuch as a person?s eye reflects his soul more clearly than any other part of the human body, in may be understood as "rich of soul" or "soulful". As regards the term hur in its more current, feminine connotation, quite a number of the earliest Qur?an-commentators - among them Al-Hasan al-Basri - understood it as signifying no more and no less than "the righteous among the women of the human kind" (Tabari) - " those toothless old women of yours whom God will resurrect as new beings" (Al-Hasan, as quoted by Razi in his comments on 4454). See in this connection also note 46 on 3852.(Quran Ref 5622 )
Or " couches raised high". The rendering adopted by me is regarded as fully justified by some of the most outstanding commentators (e.g., Baghawi, Zamakhshari , Razi, Baydawi, etc.), and this for two reasons firstly, because in the classical Arabic idiom, the term firash (lit., "bed" or "couch" is often used tropically to denote "wife" or "husband" (Raghib; also Qamus, Taj al-'Arus, etc.); and, secondly, because of the statement in the next verse that God "shall have brought them (hunna) into being in a life renewed". (In the context of this interpretation, Zamakhshari quotes also 3656, which thus refers to the inmates of paradise "? in happiness will they and their spouses on couches recline". There is no doubt that the "spouses raised high" - i.e., to the status of the blest - are identical with the hur mentioned in verse 22 above as well as in 4454, 5220 and 5572.
or this rendering of the plural noun hur (which is both masculine and feminine), see note 8 on 5622, the earliest occurrence of this term in the Qur?an; also note 13 on 5634
Al-hawariyyun (sing. hawari) is the designation applied in the Qur'an to the disciples of Jesus. Many interpretations of this term (derived from hawar, "whiteness" are given by the commentators, ranging from "one who whitens clothes by washing them" (because this was allegedly the occupation of some of Jesus' disciples) to "one who wears white garments", or "one whose heart is white", i.e., pure (cf. Tabari, Razi, Ibn Kathir). It is, however, most probable - and the evidence provided by the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls strongly supports this view - that the term hawari was popularly used to denote a member of the Essene Brotherhood, a Jewish religious group which existed in Palestine at the time of Jesus, and to which, possibly, he himself belonged. The Essenes were distinguished by their strong insistence on moral purity and unselfish conduct, and always wore white garments as the outward mark of their convictions; and this would satisfactorily explain the name given to them. The fact that the Prophet once said, "Every prophet has his hawari " (Bukhari and Muslim) does not conflict with the above view, since he obviously used this term figuratively, recalling thereby Jesus' "helpers in God's cause".(Quran Ref 352 )
Lit., "such as restrain their gaze", i.e., are of modest bearing and have eyes only for their mates (Razi). This allegorical reference to the delights of paradise occurs in the Qur?an three times (apart from the above instance, which is chronologically the earliest, in 37 48 and 55 56 as well). As an allegory, this phrase evidently applies to the righteous of both sexes, who in the life to come will be rejoined with those whom they loved and by whom they were loved in this world for, "God has promised the believers, both men and women, gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual bliss" (972); and, "anyone - be it man or woman - who does of good deeds and is a believer withal, shall enter paradise" (4124, with similar statements in 1697 and 4040). Finally, we are told in 3656 that in this paradise "will they and their spouses on couches recline" - i.e., will find peace and inner fulfillment with and in one another. (For an explanation of the term atrab, rendered by me as "well-matched", see note 15 on 5638.)
For the rendering of hur?in as "companions pure, most beautiful of eye", see surah 56,notes 8 and 13. It is to be noted that the noun zawj (lit., "a pair" or - according to the context - "one of a pair" applies to either of the two sexes, as does the transitive verb zawaja, "he paired" or "joined", i.e., one person with another.
Godbless,
AnwarI'll be checking out Lisaan al-Arab
also I meant to say hoorun 'eenun.
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There is also a "technicality" to this If the Quran is the recitation of Christian Scriptures, a Christian can very conveniently present himself as a Quranite or a "Quran-Aloner", and disseminate Christian themes with relative ease. A proclaimed Christian like "Luxenberg" presents his intention very obtusely, but the "technicality" allows for a very self-righteous way to evangelize.
Of course, that's not to say that this is the only means of dissimulation; I had come across a chick who talked about how Christians may call themselves "Muslims" to gain acceptance, because linguistically "Muslim" is a purely "secular" term. But I guess "Quran-Aloner" is a little more convenient.
@progod If Christians or Jews didn't have a meaning for hoorun meaning virgin of paradise then this meaning robably didn't exist at the time of the Quran, because the pagan Arabs according to the Quran denied a life after their earthly life.
I didn't get that, buddy.
@cushanbut the relation between Quran and Qeryana isn't so easily dismissed.
I didn't get that, buddy.
However, I came across a comment from somebody who states that a group of "Hanif Sabians" established an online Quranic community and has come to be known as Progressive Islam or Reform Islam. The guy states that though he was solicited earlier and contributed to the Quran translation of this group, he was later no longer welcome.
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You seem to have a perception of them being out to get you, are you sure you're not over reacting?
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Paranoid much?
Another word on Houri... has anyone ever read up on the etymology of the Greek Hera/Hero? The same controversy exists there. One suggestion there is that it means 'ripe'. In the case of Hera, meaning ripe for marriage. In hero meaning optimum in developement.
Edit from Wikipedia
"The name of Hera, the Queen of the gods, admits a variety of mutually exclusive etymologies; one possibility is to connect it with hora (?α, season, and to interpret it as ripe for marriage." So begins the section on Hera in Walter Burkert's Greek Mythology. In a note, he records other scholars' arguments "for the meaning Mistress as a feminine to Heros, Master." John Chadwick, a decipherer of Linear B, remarks ""her name may be connected with hrs (?ς 'hero', but that is no help, since it too is etymologically obscure." A.J. van Windekens, offers "young cow, heifer", which is consonant with Hera's common epithet (bo?pis, cow-eyed). E-ra appears in Mycenaean tablets.