Who is responsible, the pig farmer or the pork eater?
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In the UK, the Islamic Bank of Britain 'lends' money to people and charges money for doing so, technically (according to the principles of transaction based on Sunni Shariah Law) the transaction is valid and no 'interest' is being consumed or entered into.
Peace
dcall it interest its wrong, call it a charge its ok. brought from the idea that trade is acceptable and interest is not. its the same thing by another name thats all. IMHO if one enters into a contractual loan where the interest/charge is stated at the time then there is no harm done. If one enters into a contractual loan where the interest/charge is NOT stated thats when it becomes 'usery'.
banks use our money we deposit with them and pay us interst/a charge for that TRADE the same as we borrow to TRADE and pay a charge for that use. ???
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Salaam Ayisha,
banks do not use deposits as you describe, they use a system call fractional reserve, in effect they create the fiction of money out of nothing, simply an entry within a computer system, this fictional debt is then paid over twenty years or so, by the indebted person with real money, so rob them of their physical efforts for their own advantage.
The banks have worked hard to confuse Muslims into thinking you could have such a thing as an Islamic bank, an impossible establishment, they find corrupt or confused mullas, imans or muftis to rubber stamp their Usury Islamic banking model.
The problem with Muslim is they do not understand Riba, as you must first understand ownership.
Usury The premeditated theft of the fruits of someone else's labour.
Ownership
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/ -
Salaam Ayisha,
banks do not use deposits as you describe, they use a system call fractional reserve, in effect they create the fiction of money out of nothing, simply an entry within a computer system, this fictional debt is then paid over twenty years or so, by the indebted person with real money, so rob them of their physical efforts for their own advantage.
The banks have worked hard to confuse Muslims into thinking you could have such a thing as an Islamic bank, an impossible establishment, they find corrupt or confused mullas, imans or muftis to rubber stamp their Usury Islamic banking model.
The problem with Muslim is they do not understand Riba, as you must first understand ownership.
Usury The premeditated theft of the fruits of someone else's labour.
Ownership
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/salam Abdun Nur
if its theft the other party are not willing, interest is a known and willing payment for the use of your money or their money, therefore not theft but more of a payment for trade. -
call it interest its wrong, call it a charge its ok. brought from the idea that trade is acceptable and interest is not. its the same thing by another name thats all. IMHO if one enters into a contractual loan where the interest/charge is stated at the time then there is no harm done. If one enters into a contractual loan where the interest/charge is NOT stated thats when it becomes 'usery'.
banks use our money we deposit with them and pay us interst/a charge for that TRADE the same as we borrow to TRADE and pay a charge for that use. ???
Banks did start off by using our money, then they created a fake system.
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Salaam Far,
I'm afraid you're misinformed, the modern banking system began with the formation of the bank of England, in 1694, created by the representatives of the Roman Catholic Church, it creates paper money for the cost of printing and lends it at interest, it was always based on fractional reserve.
The root of fractional reserve is ancient, when the people wanted a safe store for their gold and silver they often gave it to the local jeweler to store in their safe, the jeweler would notice that no more than 5% of the coins once deposited ever left the store, and he would issue a paper receipt to each depositor, the fore runner of paper money, this is how the jewelers got into money lending, and the reason they were often killed in the past.
They would begin to issue paper receipts as loans, at a ratio of 20 coins for everyone they had deposited in their vault This fraud was sometimes discovered, if the a depositor wanted to withdraw their coins beyond the reserve left, known as a run on the bank in later times.
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Salaam Far,
I'm afraid you're misinformed, the modern banking system began with the formation of the bank of England, in 1694, created by the representatives of the Roman Catholic Church, it creates paper money for the cost of printing and lends it at interest, it was always based on fractional reserve.
The root of fractional reserve is ancient, when the people wanted a safe store for their gold and silver they often gave it to the local jeweler to store in their safe, the jeweler would notice that no more than 5% of the coins once deposited ever left the store, and he would issue a paper receipt to each depositor, the fore runner of paper money, this is how the jewelers got into money lending, and the reason they were often killed in the past.
They would begin to issue paper receipts as loans, at a ratio of 20 coins for everyone they had deposited in their vault This fraud was sometimes discovered, if the a depositor wanted to withdraw their coins beyond the reserve left, known as a run on the bank in later times.
The "modern" banking system existed then when Jesus peace be upon him turned the money changers table. Well ancient fraud.
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Salaam Far,
self evidently, a usury banking model in a multitude of forms has existed as long as greedy men have had the power over stupid men, or women, but the modern, which pertains to the present, banking system began with the formation of the bank of England.
Why are you making pointless and unproductive points?
Do you wish to argue for arguments sake, or do you want you non-sense taking seriously?
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Peace all
Verses 279 and 280 clearly indicate that there should be no repayment of anything other than the principal amount owed i.e. you shall wait until he becomes able.2279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
2280 If the person is facing insolvency, then you shall wait until he becomes able. And if you relinquish it as a charity it is better for you if only you knew. -
Salaam aalmakto,
it is the confusion of ownership that hides the simplicity of Riba, you must understand this first, as I have said previously within this thread, as for the banks, they do not lend you anything and then you repay not only the amount of the fictional loan but often many times that on top with the interest, this fraud is not trade, it is theft, they are getting your physical labour in exchange for a fiction, you are not grasping where the money comes from,every ten years or so all the money is worth around half as much as it did ten years before, in purchasing power, because they create money from nothing, simply print it, this has the effect of devaluing the existing debt certificates because they exist in greater volume, so they take from your savings, is this not theft?
They have to increase the amount of debt imposed on the population of the world, doubling it every ten years otherwise the interest payments would not be met, as all the debt certificates issued would return to the bank in interest payments, this is the reason the banking system is failing, they have reach a point were it is not possible to generate the amount of debt needed to maintain the repayment of interest required. The result of this short fall will be a musical chair economy, as the debt certificates drain back to the bankers, unemployment will increase, foreclosures will increase, businesses will fold, government services will reduce and disappear, your savings will become increasingly unsafe within the bankers grasp, pensions, stocks and shares will devalue, metals and materials, food and fuel will become more valuable, poverty and war will increase.
Would you say this is trade?
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Salaam aalmakto,
it is the confusion of ownership that hides the simplicity of Riba, you must understand this first, as I have said previously within this thread, as for the banks, they do not lend you anything and then you repay not only the amount of the fictional loan but often many times that on top with the interest, this fraud is not trade, it is theft, they are getting your physical labour in exchange for a fiction, you are not grasping where the money comes from,every ten years or so all the money is worth around half as much as it did ten years before, in purchasing power, because they create money from nothing, simply print it, this has the effect of devaluing the existing debt certificates because they exist in greater volume, so they take from your savings, is this not theft?
They have to increase the amount of debt imposed on the population of the world, doubling it every ten years otherwise the interest payments would not be met, as all the debt certificates issued would return to the bank in interest payments, this is the reason the banking system is failing, they have reach a point were it is not possible to generate the amount of debt needed to maintain the repayment of interest required. The result of this short fall will be a musical chair economy, as the debt certificates drain back to the bankers, unemployment will increase, foreclosures will increase, businesses will fold, government services will reduce and disappear, your savings will become increasingly unsafe within the bankers grasp, pensions, stocks and shares will devalue, metals and materials, food and fuel will become more valuable, poverty and war will increase.
Would you say this is trade?
Peace Abdur Nur,
No that is not trade. -
Salaam Far,
self evidently, a usury banking model in a multitude of forms has existed as long as greedy men have had the power over stupid men, or women, but the modern, which pertains to the present, banking system began with the formation of the bank of England.
Why are you making pointless and unproductive points?
Do you wish to argue for arguments sake, or do you want you non-sense taking seriously?
The argument is that if it was something that was developed in essence after the quran as before it... then there are specific issues that come about.
Such as the quran predicting this... but ultimately the factors involved are the same.
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Salaam Far,
without question usury has existed from the invention of currency, so it would have been no secret at the time of the Rasul, it would have been more commonly understood as in the modern world, as the bankers have enormous control over the information known by the population, making usury a hidden concept to most.
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Salaam Far,
without question usury has existed from the invention of currency, so it would have been no secret at the time of the Rasul, it would have been more commonly understood as in the modern world, as the bankers have enormous control over the information known by the population, making usury a hidden concept to most.
According to what logic do you state that usury has existed from the invention of currency? That's like saying fraud has existed since the invention of wealth. Your saying things out of reason.