3 Salats : pls. correct me if I am wrong
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The verse 11114 should be understood as simply as it is presented by our Lord . The verse in Arabic is
The transliteration is
Waaqimi alssalata tarafayi alnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanati yuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikra lilththakireena .
And the possibly close English translation is
And establish the Salah in the extreme parts of the day and in the approach of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.
Now the word ?wa? in the verse simply means ?and? . It will be divergence and misleading to translate it otherwise . Hence the verse simply refers to three parts of day for Salah
01+02 => Both ends of the day
03=> At the approaches of the night .To support this view you can search how many daily Salats are mentioned in the Quran . In the whole Quran there are only three names of daily Salahs mentioned by Almighty Allah , not more/less than that . These are
- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)
- Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)
- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer)
It has an very good collaboration with the timing mentioned in the verse 11114 .
Another important thing to mention here that you can?t add the special prayer of Friday in that list or in that timing because of several reasons
01- Friday Prayer is a special Prayer only to performed in Friday
O ye who believe! When the call is heard for the prayer of the day of congregation, haste unto remembrance of Allah and leave your trading. That is better for you if ye did but know.
The day referred here is ?Yaumul Juma? or Friday . Hence this Prayer is not a daily Prayer hence it can not be performed in other days like Saturday to Thursday . But the above names of the Salah are to be performed each day of a week because the two extreme parts of the day and the the dark of the night are a daily natural phenomenon .
02- The time of the Prayer can be deduced with ease from the next verse to 62 9 which is
And when the Prayer is finished, then disperse in the land and seek of ALLAH's grace, and remember ALLAH much that you may prosper.
Watch carefully , verse 09 is telling us to join Friday Salah leaving our trades/business shut and verse 10 is telling us to join the trade/business again after finishing the Friday Salah . Hence it must be in the middle of working hours , i.e., in the noon . This timing is quite different than the other usual daily Salats as found in 11114 .
Therefore we can summarize the issue as follows
01- Salatul Fajr At the first terminal of the day
02- Salatul Usta At the last terminal of the day
03- Salatul Esha At the first dark of the nightThese are daily Salats .
And01- A special Prayer only in Friday at noon .
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Almost all long term members agree upon a minimum of two daily, and they have all read a ton of arguments for/against.
I recommend to carefully review
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0Thanks Wakas . Really speaking I am expecting you be the first to respond me . I am not unaware of all those threads cause I have been a regular reader of them from free-minds for so many years . As far as your opinions concern I always remark your divergent understating of word ?wa? in verse 11114 which is simply means ?and? . That is the very reason I dedicated to you the following quote
Now the word ?wa? in the verse simply means ?and? . It will be divergence and misleading to translate it otherwise .
This off-track meaning of ?wa? leads people to believe 2 salats mentioned in 11114 and I think you are the primary generator of this fact .
Yusuf Ali
And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)Dr. Munir Munshey
And establish the ?Salat? in the morning, the evening and during the night. The good deeds do, surely, nullify the bad ones! This is an exhortation for all those who are seeking advice.Sher Ali
And observe Prayer at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night. Surely, good works drive away evil ones. This is a reminder for those who would remember.Shakir
And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.Pickthall
Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.Sale
Pray regularly morning and evening; and in the former part of the night, for good works drive away evils. This is an admonition unto those who considerMuhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan
And perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), at the two ends of the day and in some hours of the night (i.e. the five compulsory Salat (prayers)). Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds (i.e. small sins). That is a reminder (an advice) for the mindful (those who accept advice).Palmer
And be thou steadfast in prayer at the two ends of the day and the (former and latter) parts of the night. Verily, good works remove evil works;- that is a reminder to the mindful!Arberry
And perform the prayer at the two ends of the day and nigh of the night; surely the good deeds will drive away the evil deeds. That is a remembrance unto the mindful.Khalifa
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.Rodwell
And observe prayer at early morning, at the close of the day, and at the approach of night; for the good deeds drive away the evil deeds. This is a warning for those who reflectThanks .
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The verse 11114 should be understood as simply as it is presented by our Lord . The verse in Arabic is
Therefore we can summarize the issue as follows
01- Salatul Fajr At the first terminal of the day
02- Salatul Usta At the last terminal of the day
03- Salatul Esha At the first dark of the nightThese are daily Salats .
And01- A special Prayer only in Friday at noon .
Peace, there is no set number stated, be continuously mindful while awake?
and keep up the alata to ends the daytime and parts of the night?
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Peace, there is no set number stated, be continuously mindful while awake?
and keep up the alata to ends the daytime and parts of the night?
Salam . You ignored the middle part of my post and just paste the first and the last paragraph which leads to think so ?
We found a perfect collaboration between 03 distinct times of salats and 03 distinct names of Salats in the Qur?an , hence my conclusion is above . Salat is a ?Hukm? (Obligatory command) of Almighty ALLAH , hence all related verses about Salat are ?Aayatun Muhkama? , hence clear , straight forward and simple . You need not to make rope out of ashes from them .
37 He is the One who sent down to you the scripture, from which there are law giving verses; they are the essence of the Scripture ?.
2242 It is such that God clarifies to you His revelations that you may comprehend.
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peace Union,
It is good you have been reading free-minds forum for years, but have you been reading with attention?
If so, please quote and link where I said "wa" means anything other than "and" in 11114.
Thanks.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.0
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.0
Yes, in that thread I wrote it meant "and", THEN in a note added its other theoretical possibilities such as "also, including, together with".
What is your point?
As a side note, that is an excellent clarifying thread for an issue that often comes up.
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Yes, in that thread I wrote it meant "and", THEN in a note added its other theoretical possibilities such as "also, including, together with".
What is your point?
As a side note, that is an excellent clarifying thread for an issue that often comes up.
Brother Wakas , I do appreciate your deep knowledge in this field , but let us not be escorted the meaning of any verse with possibilities , especially law giving verses . GOD Almighty clarified us that law giving verses are simple to comprehend and straight forward .
Anyway what I don?t cope with others about 11114 for referring to 02 times rather it does indicates 03 different times of Salat and ?wa? separated the two day-times from one night time .
Thanks .
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peace,
Anyway what I don?t cope with others about 11114 for referring to 02 times rather it does indicates 03 different times of Salat and ?wa? separated the two day-times from one night time .
I recommend you re-read the thread you referenced. It is NOT "one night time", it is PLURAL. Secondly, please apply logic and practicality, and explain to us how "two edges of the daytime" provide a complete self-contained timing system for us. Once you realise it is impossible, then the "wa" can only be taken as an explanatory "wa" and not referring to a new "salat", or as an idiom meaning all the time. Not what you suggest.
Thanks.
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peace,
I recommend you re-read the thread you referenced. It is NOT "one night time", it is PLURAL. Secondly, please apply logic and practicality, and explain to us how "two edges of the daytime" provide a complete self-contained timing system for us. Once you realise it is impossible, then the "wa" can only be taken as an explanatory "wa" and not referring to a new "salat", or as an idiom meaning all the time. Not what you suggest.
Thanks.
Lets pull the ear to get the head and finally the whole body .
The literal translation of 11114 simply denotes three different timing in a natural day two edges of a day and the first closest hours of a night . Here the plural (or singular as proposed by brother Layth) form Zulufan doesn?t change its status because there is only one nearest part of the night and that is after the sun set . The part of the night just before sunrise is farthest portion of night and hence can?t be Zulufan as presented in this verse . Zulufan can be comprised of several hours/minutes which make the word fragmentally plural or collectively singular . Whatever it is , Zulufan is supposed to be the same .
2458 => Salatul Fajr is mentioned here . Fajr itself denotes the starting edge of the day which also defined more detailed in 2187 . According to this verse this Fajr time remains from starting of the whiteness of the sky till it prevails over the darkness of the sky . 1778 had a double confirmation about Salatul Fajr as the one of the Tarafay preserved for Salat .
1778 => The other tarafay is hidden in this verse . This time is from the rubbing of the sun ( simply sunset) till the darkness of the night .
Thats how two Salats of Nahar get finished . The following is the Salah at Layl
2548 => Salatul Isha is mentioned here . Isha itself denotes the dark part of night . Now the whole night is dark , what should be time for Isha ? For sure verse 11114 tells us that it should be the nearest part of the night when the night gathers its darkness in full magnitude .
Another key verse is 2238 , where Salatul Wusta or the middle prayer is mentioned . The eye-capturing/exceptional structure of the verse , e.g. , ?Preserve the prayers, and the middle prayer?? and the use of the term Wusta (middle) is a deliberate clue from All-Knowing GOD to guide us to know how many Salats are prescribed by Him . ?Wusta? puts Salats numbers in odd 3 or 5 or 7 etc. From these odd numbers 3 is the right candidate which is nicely fitting with the whole Qur?an where the issue of Salat is mentioned , as discussed briefly above .
?Salatul Wusta? here should not be translated as excellent/the best Prayer because the whole Qur?an leveled all Salats as equally important and significant . There is good, better or the best Salah in the Qur?an .
Thanks .
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I will highlight the unsubstantiated parts of your post in bold.
Please clarify and/or provide Quranic evidence for each point.
Lets pull the ear to get the head and finally the whole body .
The literal translation of 11114 simply denotes three different timing in a natural day two edges of a day and the first closest hours of a night . Here the plural (or singular as proposed by brother Layth) form Zulufan doesn?t change its status because there is only one nearest part of the night and that is after the sun set . The part of the night just before sunrise is farthest portion of night and hence can?t be Zulufan as presented in this verse . Zulufan can be comprised of several hours/minutes which make the word fragmentally plural or collectively singular . Whatever it is , Zulufan is supposed to be the same .
2458 => Salatul Fajr is mentioned here . Fajr itself denotes the starting edge of the day which also defined more detailed in 2187 . According to this verse this Fajr time remains from starting of the whiteness of the sky till it prevails over the darkness of the sky . 1778 had a double confirmation about Salatul Fajr as the one of the Tarafay preserved for Salat .
1778 => The other tarafay is hidden in this verse . This time is from the rubbing of the sun ( simply sunset) till the darkness of the night .
Thats how two Salats of Nahar get finished . The following is the Salah at Layl
2548 => Salatul Isha is mentioned here . Isha itself denotes the dark part of night . Now the whole night is dark , what should be time for Isha ? For sure verse 11114 tells us that it should be the nearest part of the night when the night gathers its darkness in full magnitude .
Another key verse is 2238 , where Salatul Wusta or the middle prayer is mentioned . The eye-capturing/exceptional structure of the verse , e.g. , ?Preserve the prayers, and the middle prayer?? and the use of the term Wusta (middle) is a deliberate clue from All-Knowing GOD to guide us to know how many Salats are prescribed by Him . ?Wusta? puts Salats numbers in odd 3 or 5 or 7 etc. From these odd numbers 3 is the right candidate which is nicely fitting with the whole Qur?an where the issue of Salat is mentioned , as discussed briefly above .
?Salatul Wusta? here should not be translated as excellent/the best Prayer because the whole Qur?an leveled all Salats as equally important and significant . There is good, better or the best Salah in the Qur?an .
Thanks .
As a side note
The Quran does not say "salatul wusta", this is your error, a common one.
I do not translate it as best/excellent prayer, but of course, you may have been making a general point, unrelated to my view. It meaning "prayer" in this verse has been discussed and the evidence is against this meaning. Feel free to review. -
I will highlight the unsubstantiated parts of your post in bold.
Please clarify and/or provide Quranic evidence for each point.
As a side note
The Quran does not say "salatul wusta", this is your error, a common one.
I do not translate it as best/excellent prayer, but of course, you may have been making a general point, unrelated to my view. It meaning "prayer" in this verse has been discussed and the evidence is against this meaning. Feel free to review.For clarification I urge you to read the below mentioned verses from some wise translators as well as their literal translations
11114 ,2458,1778,2187 and 2238 .
These verses are self-explanatory and colloborated to one another . I also like to know how you translate them .
My thoughts were not based on '2nd option/possibilities' of those verses rather based on their '1st option/firm' meanings .
Thanks.
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I have studied those verses in detail.
Perhaps it will be easier, taking it one at a time. Can you please clarify the following, according to you
What is daytime as per Quran?
What is night as per Quran?
When does salat al fajr time-range begin and end?
When does salat al esha time-range begin and end?
When does "al salat al wusta" time-range begin and end?With reference to Al Quran, for each one.
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I have studied those verses in detail.
Perhaps it will be easier, taking it one at a time. Can you please clarify the following, according to you
What is daytime as per Quran?
What is night as per Quran?Simply complete absence of daylight (0%) is Layl and presence of an iota of daylight (>0% daylight) is Nahaar . In other word night is full dark while Nahaar could be bright or partially dark . The following verses confirm these facts
And a Sign for them is the Night We withdraw there from the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;
Say Tell me, if Allah were to make the night to continue incessantly on you till the day of resurrection, who is the god besides Allah that could bring you light? Do you not then hear?
According to the Qur?an night and day are completely opposite natural phenomenon . There is no shared/mutual portions among them in 24 hours . Any time in 24 hours is either day (Nahaar) or night (Layl) . Thus Dawn , Dusk or presence of twilight is under Nahaar because daylight presents in these natural phenomenon though very faint .
Say Tell me, if Allah were to make the day to continue incessantly on you till the day of resurrection, who is the god besides Allah that could bring you the night in which you take rest? Do you not then see?
Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the night over the day, and rolls the day over the night. He committed the sun and the moon, each running for a finite period. Absolutely, He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.
"You merge the night into the day, and merge the day into the night. You produce the living from the dead, and produce the dead from the living, and You provide for whomever You choose, without limits."
When does salat al fajr time-range begin and end?
When does salat al esha time-range begin and end?
When does "al salat al wusta" time-range begin and end?With reference to Al Quran, for each one.
Fajr Salah Fajr or Dawn is a self-contained time period of the beginning of Nahaar . It starts from the first sunlight (twilight) appearing in the sky till the sunrise over the horizon . That is the time period for Fajr Salah . Verse 2187 also confirms this fact .
Wusta Salah It starts from the rubbing of the sun (simply sunset) till the darkness of the night . Check verse 1778 .
Isha? Salah Isha? is a self-contained time period which starts from the beginning of the complete darkness of night till the resting time . That why its another form ?asa?? is used to denote supper . Verse 11114 defined Isha? as the near parts of the night and verse 2458 supplemented it by saying that after Isha? Prayer it is our private time , e.g., for taking rest , for changing clothes or for supper etc. .
Thanks .
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peace,
Thanks for the response. My time is limited, but in brief...
night is not full dark, as there is often light in layl/night, e.g. moonlight. You could argue "no daylight only" but not "no light at all".
There is a mix of opinion about 3637, however, as far as I'm aware, your view is the minority opinion, but nonetheless, let me explain it as best I can.
"min" is a partitive. And "min hu" means "from it", thus layl MUST contain something in it that can be removed, and this is nahaar (obviously referring to twilight).
"fa itha" means "so/then when" and is a conjunctive implying a sequence, i.e. what occurs before is done, THEN what comes after, i.e. THEN they are in darkness, i.e. A (remove light from layl) then B (darkness).
Your view is an interpretation, NOT literally what the verse is saying.
2871-72 has been cited before. This does not read like a "literal/law-giving" verse, defining night. Even in the darkest part of night, the moon can easily provide light in it. Further, in one part of earth it would be day and the other would be night, so if you take this verse literally, it means God changing the location of the earth and making it not near any star to provide its light, which of course means an end to the earth. This view is further compounded by "do you not hear" and then "do you not see" so it seems not to be referring to a visual phenonemon literally, but giving an example to ponder upon. Furthermore, I just noticed the word for light (Daad-Waw-Alif) in 2871 seems to be used as a similitude for illumination/guidance, not literally light, elsewhere. This may be a very interesting find (and actually opened up a whole new meaning of 217-20, 2435 etc for me), but I have not studied it fully yet.
I do not understand your citing of 3640, i.e. how it favours your view.
395 actually implies a coiling/winding, i.e. not an abrupt/demarcated shift from day/night. Same with 327, in fact, since it uses "fee" meaning "in", it actually weights it against your view.
Can you clarify how 2187 supports your view?
I assume, according to you "darkness of the night" in 1778 is redundant, since you consider night to be pitch black anyway. This makes it potentially misleading wording.
Re isha
"...till the resting time" - where is this from?
So now you take "near parts" in 11114 as plural?
please explain exactly how you are interpreting 2458, and how you're linking it to your view, and where this changing clothes for supper, comes from.thanks
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peace,
Thanks for the response. My time is limited, but in brief...
night is not full dark, as there is often light in layl/night, e.g. moonlight. You could argue "no daylight only" but not "no light at all".
Peace to you also . I do appreciate you spare from your busiest times for the discussion .
I think you misunderstood me . I didn?t write that night is devoid of any light rather I clearly mentioned that ?full dark? is the result of total absence of daylight . Moon-light , start-light or any other heavenly bodies? light?s presence is natural in the night . I think the term 'full' dark puzzled you to think so . Anyway I apologize for my bad word choosing though I defined it correctly as said by you ?no daylight only" but not "no light at all".
There is a mix of opinion about 3637, however, as far as I'm aware, your view is the minority opinion, but nonetheless, let me explain it as best I can.
"min" is a partitive. And "min hu" means "from it", thus layl MUST contain something in it that can be removed, and this is nahaar (obviously referring to twilight).
"fa itha" means "so/then when" and is a conjunctive implying a sequence, i.e. what occurs before is done, THEN what comes after, i.e. THEN they are in darkness, i.e. A (remove light from layl) then B (darkness).
Verse 3637 ,395, 327 etc. are the most accurate astronomical description of the method of alternation of day and night but is not necessarily what you think .
For example lets use exact word/grammatical construction of verse 3637 in this simple sentence
?And a dangerous thing is fire , I remove/strip/separate(Nashlakhu) my boy from it (Minhu) so then (Fa itha) he is in safe .?
In the above sentence it will be unwise to understand that the fire is in touch with the boy .
In fact the process of night to become dark starts earlier than the twilight period . When daylight reducing from 100% to 99% , the process of darkness of night starts . At that moment the darkness of night already scored 1% in the sky . In this way daylight of Nahaar starts reducing gradually ( 100%->99%->98%->??.) and the darkness of night is occupying that empty place (0%->1%->2%->?) . In the final stage when the daylight is 0% , the darkness is 100% and that is the night (Layl ) .
2871-72 has been cited before. This does not read like a "literal/law-giving" verse, defining night. Even in the darkest part of night, the moon can easily provide light in it. Further, in one part of earth it would be day and the other would be night, so if you take this verse literally, it means God changing the location of the earth and making it not near any star to provide its light, which of course means an end to the earth. This view is further compounded by "do you not hear" and then "do you not see" so it seems not to be referring to a visual phenonemon literally, but giving an example to ponder upon. Furthermore, I just noticed the word for light (Daad-Waw-Alif) in 2871 seems to be used as a similitude for illumination/guidance, not literally light, elsewhere. This may be a very interesting find (and actually opened up a whole new meaning of 217-20, 2435 etc for me), but I have not studied it fully yet.
Numerous verses in the Qur?an repeatedly claim that Layl and Nahaar are opposite natural phenomena , hence no share in between them . Even accepting your interpretation about verse 2871-72 the following observation is quite logical
Say,
Tell me, if ALLAH should make the night to continue perpetually over you till the Day of Resurrection, what god is there other than ALLAH who could bring you light ? Will you not then hearken ?' Say,Tell me, if ALLAH should make the day to continue perpetually over you till the Day of Resurrection, what god is there other than ALLAH who could bring you night wherein you could rest ? Will you not then see ?'If really twilight period is shared part of Nahaar and Layl, the above verse showed GOD?s ignorance about the fact and also the word ?light/enlightenment? (Diyaa) in verses 71 is interchangeable with ?Nahaar? in verse 72 as opposite of Layl . Nevertheless as like numerous verses , verse 72 again repeats Layl and Nahaar to be exactly opposite natural phenomenon .
I do not understand your citing of 3640, i.e. how it favours your view.
3640 is an astronomical as well as a logical presentation of the fact that as sun and moon can never grasp one another , in the same way Nahaar and Layl are unable to outstrip one another . The representation is almost same as in verse 327 where complete different entities like life and death are cited on parallel to Layl and Nahar .
395 actually implies a coiling/winding, i.e. not an abrupt/demarcated shift from day/night. Same with 327, in fact, since it uses "fee" meaning "in", it actually weights it against your view.
'Fi' has a wide varities of use , hence against numerous verses which proof Layl and Nahaar to be compeletely different things , 'Fi' should be understood accordingly . Moreover I already describe the astronomical way how darkness slowly removing dayligh , hence word like 'Minhu' or 'Fi' are easily comprehensibe without agreeing your view .
Can you clarify how 2187 supports your view?
Salah is as old as Prophet Abraham so as it?s time like Fajr and Isha? . The time Fajr and Isha? were well known to the 07th Century Arab Pagans though we want know its details . It is more like the Shia/Sunni who want to know why Qur?an didn?t mention what is the sequence of the month Ramadan in the calendar or what is ?well-known? months of Pilgrimage though people knew it long before the Qur?an was revealed .Everybody knew what time dawn(Fajr) starts and when it ends . Verse 2187 gave us the starting time of Fajr by observing the first light visible in the sky though almost 99% of the sky remains dark . Gradually this light will spread over the whole sky and finally the darkness will perish which indicates the end time of Fajr . This fact is astronomical , logical and Quranic which is known to ancient human civilization for thousand years . That is why GOD Almighty Chose to name this Salah in terms of its time ?Fajr Salah? to comprehend it rightly . Same as to Isha? time which termed as ?Isha? Salah? .
I assume, according to you "darkness of the night" in 1778 is redundant, since you consider night to be pitch black anyway. This makes it potentially misleading wording.
I hope I already clarify your misunderstanding and my bad in chosing right word ..
Re isha
"...till the resting time" - where is this from?
So now you take "near parts" in 11114 as plural?
please explain exactly how you are interpreting 2458, and how you're linking it to your view, and where this changing clothes for supper, comes from.thanks
I didn?t say that Zulufan is strictly singular . I read from some threads here that some one trying to prove it to be singular . Anyway I clarify my point on this issue on the same post . Now pondering on 2458 , you can read
O you who believe! let those whom your right hands possess and those of you who have not attained to puberty ask permission of you three times; before the morning prayer, and when you put off your clothes at midday in summer, and after the prayer of the nightfall; these are three times of privacy for you; neither is it a sin for you nor for them besides these, some of you must go round about (waiting) upon others; thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
The activities after ISha? Salah <?Bad Salatil Isha?? > can help us significantly what is the period of Isha? Salah . Firstly , GOD Almighty tells us that after Isha Salah, this is our private time . In general concept we understand that this time People can put their casual night clothes or they can have the intimacy with their spouses or can have their supper etc. Secondly, at this time the pre-puberty kids are still awake <? lam yablughoo alhuluma? > which doesn?t qualify this time to be a deep night rather predicts the early parts of the night . Thirdly , the subordinates/employees/slaves < malakat aymanukum> have some issues to settle with their owners/bosses . This is expected only during early parts of the night .
The above logical analysis (of course in general sense) can qualify the Period of Isha Salah at early parts of the night which collaborating smoothly with verse 11114.
May ALLAH the Almighty guide us .
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peace,
Thanks for clarifying your view on "min hu" and "fee". I do not agree, but it would have been if you cited some Quranic evidence for your use of "min hu" and "fee".
Also, no-one says 1% darkness of night, or mentions darkness of night when the sun is up. This is your own wording/perspective, a forced position due to your view.
I am hesitant to conclude nahaar/layl as direct opposites in the verses you have cited, but I can agree that is one way of looking at it.
3640 is not for/against your view, as per your explanation.
hence against numerous verses which proof Layl and Nahaar to be compeletely different things
Exaggeration/extrapolation.
Re 1778 and "darkness of night"
You did clarify, but I disagree.Re 2187
I see your point now. However, I would need the Arabic clarified, as in the expression "black thread of dawn/fajr" as fajr doesn't have a black thread as such, thus may be referencing the whole expression "white thread from black thread". Possibly implying the time of fajr/dawn.Re 2458
Same goes with those post-puberty, see the very next verse. What does this do to your view? -
peace,
Thanks for clarifying your view on "min hu" and "fee". I do not agree, but it would have been if you cited some Quranic evidence for your use of "min hu" and "fee".
Peace Wakas . The varieties of meanings of the preposition in the Quran is well known to it?s students . Most of the time the relevant preposition should be understood as per the context of the verse, not by its literal meaning. ?Fi? and ?Min/Minhu/Minha/Minhuma etc.? are the principals of those types . Pls. link http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3AfiY+pos%3Ap to see different application of ?Fi? and link http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3Amin+pos%3Ap for Min(X) . As I am time-constrained , let me be brief
Some of the following verse have distract meaning of ?Fi?
Or is it that theirs is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them? Then let them ascend ?Fi? (by any means) .
Indeed We see the turning of your face ?Fi? (to/towards) heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.
O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life ?Fi?(compared with) the hereafter is but little.
And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo ! they devise plans ?Fi?(against) Our communication. Say Allah is quicker to plan; surely Our messengers write down what you plan.
And those who were deemed weak will say to those who were proud, `Nay, but it was your scheming night and day, when you bade us disbelieve in ALLAH and set up equals with HIM.' And they will conceal their remorse when they see the punishment; and WE shall put chains ?Fi?(around) the necks of those who disbelieved. They will not be requited but for what they did.
(Firon) said You believe in him before I give you leave; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you enchantment, therefore I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will certainly crucify you ?Fi?(upon/on) the trunks of the palm trees, and certainly you will come to know which of us is the more severe and the more abiding in chastising.
As you have already saw the variant meanings of Min(X) from the link I provide you, I will now only show you two verses of the Qur?an , which is quite analogous to our verse of interest , i.e., verse 3637
And when Musa prayed for drink for his people, We said Strike the rock with your staff So there gushed from it (Minhu) twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place Eat and drink of the provisions of Allah and do not act corruptly in the land, making mischief.
And
Who hath appointed for you fire from the green tree, and behold! ye kindle from it (Minhu) (the fire fire).
In both verses the word ?Minhu? is used . In verse 260 it is used to express the connection of stone with water and in verse 3680 the fire in connection to green tree . Now if you use the same understanding of verse 3637 in these two verses , how illogical and unscientific your understanding will be ! In all those verses ?minhu? is not used to denote ?mutual-contain? or ?share? property, not between night and day , not between stone and water nor between fire and green tree .
Also, no-one says 1% darkness of night, or mentions darkness of night when the sun is up. This is your own wording/perspective, a forced position due to your view.
In fact that is the natural way how daylight is perishing from any particular place on the earth . As the earth is round and because of its diurnal motion which makes sun to rise from the east and set at the west , unlike any flat object where daylight can appear and disappear instantaneously , the earth?s daylight and darkness appear and disappear follows an inverse-proportional ratio . When the sun?s lower limb first disappear behind the horizon at sunset the direct light emitted from that portion disappear and in the farthest east sky it starts to become dark . This process of increasing of darkness and decreasing of daylight continues until the whole sun disappear behind the horizon and also till the time when the indirect sunlight in lower atmosphere slowly extinguish. This natural phenomenon is even evident by just a mere observer at that time observing the east and the west sky . I didn?t mention this natural process is happening when the sun is up rather my wording was
In fact the process of night to become dark starts earlier than the twilight period?
which is collaborating with what I said . Please seek any astronomical guide if I am mistaken. However your understanding of 3637 seems going against you now . The verse didn?t say that the daylight (of any magnitude) is removed from night rather said ?Nahaar? is removed from Layl . In other word following your logic Layl must contain Nahaar and this could be anytime of a Nahhar , I presume noon 12 o?clock (!!) . Again if you think that no , it must be Twilight , then you confessing that Twilight is under Nahaar . A critical fallacy ( with respect to logic and also to science) remain in understanding the verse 3637 in that way .
Exaggeration/extrapolation.
Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference (Root Kha Lam Fa http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm ) of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water which Allah sendeth down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and (in) the ordinance of the winds, and the clouds obedient between heaven and earth are signs (of Allah's Sovereignty) for people who have sense.
Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding,
Lo! in the difference of day and night and all that Allah hath created in the heavens and the earth are portents, verily, for folk who ward off (evil).
The similitude of the life of the world is only as water which We send down from the sky, then the earth's growth of that which men and cattle eat mingleth with it till, when the earth hath taken on her ornaments and is embellished, and her people deem that they are masters of her, Our commandment cometh by night or by day and We make it as reaped corn as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do we expound the revelations for people who reflect.
Say "Do ye see,- if His punishment should come to you by night or by day,- what portion of it would the sinners wish to hasten?
And He it is Who giveth life and causeth death, and His is the difference of night and day. will ye not then understand?
He is the One who designed the night and the day to be different/alternate a sufficient proof for those who wish to take heed, or to be appreciative.
Re 1778 and "darkness of night"
You did clarify, but I disagree.If you please elaborate where did you differentiate with me (as like night and day do differentiate (Kha Lam Fa) ? )
Re 2458
Same goes with those post-puberty, see the very next verse. What does this do to your view?Good observation . To get permission during those private times is usual for the post-puberty people as described in verse 2459 , but is it not unusual to command in verse 2458 for pre-puberty kids to ask the same level of permission as like adult ? There must be some grave reason behind this strange command of Al-Knowing ALLAH . As the verse also related with Fajr and Isha? time , may be there is some link between that strange command to identify these times or/and something else/more ?? .And ALLAH , the Almighty knows the best .
Thank you .
-
peace,
Thanks for the examples of "fi". Most of those can be understood as "in", but I see it can have different connotations/interpretations. This does not change the fact that the vast majority usage is "in".
Re 260
from the rock (part of the rock is water FACT)Re 3680
from the green tree (part of the tree, e.g. stick is used to make fire FACT)So, both actually support my view of "min hu".
I have never heard anyone say any % of darkness when the sun is still up. Never. This use in terminology/perspective/phrasing is a forced position, due to your view.
The verse didn?t say that the daylight (of any magnitude) is removed from night rather said ?Nahaar? is removed from Layl . In other word following your logic Layl must contain Nahaar and this could be anytime of a Nahhar , I presume noon 12 o?clock (!!) . Again if you think that no , it must be Twilight , then you confessing that Twilight is under Nahaar . A critical fallacy ( with respect to logic and also to science) remain in understanding the verse 3637 in that way .
Underlining is my emphasis. I do not understand what you wrote here. Please check and clarify.
I recommend reading 3637 again, to see the sequence of events, and if it contains any absolute statements.
Re use of "different"
An apple is different to an orange, but that does not mean they are complete opposites. This is a nonsensical position.Re 1778
My view is quite clear. If you regard layl to be pitch black then when AQ says "darkness of the night" it is redundant/superfluous, and in my view, misleading if layl meant pitch black.Yes, let us know what you come up with regarding 2458.
As a side note, I am still at the stage of trying to understand the evidence behind your view, and what your view exactly is. I haven't really begun checking it to see if it holds weight. This may come later once we know exactly what your position is and how you understand the relevant verses.
