How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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"I asked you who has condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts HERE. Has brother Edip joined this discussion? FYI I do not read the f-m translation of the Quran"
This site is by Yuksel - as far as I understand. As for someone proclaiming Westernism - it is you. And everyone affected by Yuksel's thought.
"You said that in muslim countries you are not allowed to marry before puberty. This is not the case. The bubble I was referring to is your ignorance as to see what happens in practice, not in theory."
Which was a silly thing to say.
"Sex outside marriage is a Western influence? Really, what about the nice Nikah mut?ah or Sigheh? That is of course completely legit?"
Another poor point. Temporary marriage is ONLY sanctioned by Shia. And technically - that is sex within marriage - not outside!
"I agree that sex outside marriage is forbidden, but I challenge your perception of what marriage means."
Good - I am glad we finally got there . . . sex is forbidden outside the marriage.
This was never a debate about what my perception of marriage are . . . as you never asked after them . . .
Second - you did imply quite explicitly that sex-outside of marriage is allowed.
And the you sort of went somewhat haywire.
"You choose to follow the rule that sex outside the marriage is forbidden. I follow those rules too. I never said I disagreed to any of the rules of marriage that is described in the Quran."
I am going to disagree - YOU DID - imply that sex outside marriage is allowed.
Look at your terminology . . . boyfried/girlfriend. . .
All this fandango about "spirit of Quran" and whatnot . . .
Look . . . do human s REALLY need to be taught love? Not really. Else as you mention - Quran does instruct as to be kind, love and whatnot to their spouse . . .
Why is it do you think more than billion others cannot read them verses and gain something?
"while you choose to think that following the rules are most important"
You do not 2 things about me . . . and neither did you bother to ask. Giant leaps there . . . isn't it better to find out rather than make up things about me?
"but I am saying that you must at least try to see the spiritual side, maybe it will make you understand the rules instead of just following them."
How do you know - what and what not I see or don't see. . . . on what basis?
I have your thoughts . . .to which I objected to . . . what thoughts of mine are you objecting to?
"Marriage as an institution according to traditional Islam does not recognise the first and foremost criteria for marriage. "
Poppycock - and utter tosh. WHo are you to decide - what is and isn't "first and foremost criteria for marriage".
And who gave you that authority? Do you have some secret understanding?
And is your understanding more worthy than - any old Zayd Bark Umar - then on what criteria?
"That is right, but the term "marriage" as percieved by tradtional Islam does not include compassion and respect. Again, that is why the term "marriage" is misleading and it does not qualify as a stamp of approval for sex. "
More made up rubbish. . . and utterly wrong.
I don't believe that you are THAT stupid.
What are you going to claim next? More than a billion people do not have compassion for their families?
Are you going to say this about Kuffar?
Love and compassion is with Humans - as their essential nature but we all as humans know this basic difference between right and wrong.
"It is my personal opinion that"
Which has absolutely NO GUARANTEE whether it is right or wrong. And why are you dictating your "personal opinions" to others?
"Once I have checked off the rules and made my promise in the name of Allah to my future spouse I have done what is required of me. I am "married". Allah does not recognise a paper signed by the right person, he does not recognise one particular ceremony. He recognises that you have the means to start a family and the true intent of your heart. That you happen to call it by a name doesnt change anything."
Utter tosh. Given that it is Allah who has set the rules . . . so why did he bother . . . if they are NOT meant to be followed?
And how do you know what Allah wants/not wants - other than the Quran?
"You can call it marriage, boyfriend/girlfriend, shacking up or whatever, it doesnt change what the "bond" is all about."
Of course it does . . .100% it matters.
This
"boyfriend/girlfriend"
by its very nature implies - NOT MARRIED.
"No, I am saying that there was no criteria to love and respect when they got married. When I got married in the mosque not a single person asked me if I loved my bride........and no-one asked her....just an example."
Why should anyone ask you about love? In a formal ceremony of marriage - as dictated by Quran - asking about LOVE has got notihng to do about it. It is a basic assumption - you will have compassion for your wife . . . what is the point of asking? Of whose interest would that be?
I have NEVER in my life heard of anyone getting married in a mosque . . .
"Yes, by your definition of what a western liberal is, then you fit the description more than I do. I am trying to cleanse my understanding of Islam from outside influence whilst you are defending to keep influence by the outside."
Read the above - your comments have the habit of betraying you . . . I do not think you are being fully honest. Atop - you said one thing . . . then you changed it.
You started off with you believe sex outside marriage is NOT ALLOWED . . . then you changed it back.
Make you mind up!
"No, sorry to disappoint you. I am completely lucid. "
Pity - at least then you would have had an excuse.
"Can I ask.........could you take some? You need to kick back and let the world float by in pretty colours. I think that would do you good ) "
I guess - this too would be for you - in the spirit of Quran.
Whatever your heart desires . . . . automatically - It is spirit of the Quran.
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Peace,
I don't see anything wrong with commitment, if anything it encourages a level of friendship, respect and love that fits the intimacy involved in sexual intercourse.
Emil and others (apologies, I'm not sure who it was now) have made some very good points on this thread earlier about the different types of 'marriage' and what marriage can mean in the context of the Quran. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't tell you to have a ceremony in order for it to be an actual marriage. So, a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship - although I avoid these terms - where commitment is absolutely clear and its essentially a marriage without the paper and ceremony - that could be completely valid in terms of the Quran.
A commitment to another individual, that is based truly on a desire to be together and share your life with one another, should be something that is celebrated and encouraged, not considered a price to be paid in my personal opinion.
This just made me think of how some people say humans are animals so therefore, sexual promiscuity is more acceptable. Technically, yes humans are mammals, but firstly, why would that mean we do things how certain types of animals do them - there is a lot that would be impractical if we did things the way some animals do, and secondly some animals mate for life anyway.
"As far as I'm aware, it doesn't tell you to have a ceremony in order for it to be an actual marriage. "
There is clear indication. . . and in many verses . . . the whole purpose of the word Nikah. Although this ceremony - is more of a declaration or intent - making state and society aware . . . a bit like issuing of birth certificate. Although the purpose of marriage certificate is for state purposes only . . . there is no requirement under Islam. One does not have to have an Imam either.
There is nothing special about it - however there is nothing forbidding - that you cannot celebrate it - as long as you do not commit anything unlawful.
The point being . . . akin to Western society - where teens start to have "relationships" - that is forbidden.
"So, a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship - although I avoid these terms - where commitment is absolutely clear and its essentially a marriage without the paper and ceremony - that could be completely valid in terms of the Quran."
Wrong. Even "a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship" is wrong. Whole purpose of marriage is declaration of intent - to society.
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'Dearest' - nice sarcasm.
Hahaha,after reading all @Pixelrow posts.No doubt again, @Pixelrow actually still a teenager who still has unstable personality.
I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion.
Yes @Pixelrow, this forum is not a brawl clubs.
Anyways in Sunni teaching, we're not taught to be agressive toward people, do name calling or another bad words.
I asked you who has condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts HERE. Has brother Edip joined this discussion? FYI I do not read the f-m translation of the Quran
I'm so sad about this, @Edip Yuksel, @Abdal Quran, @Arnold Yasin left this forum.Because they're important Islamic Reform scholar, their existence in here is important too.
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I agree with @Emil.The Quran only command us to niqah, but Quran doesn't say how and what tradition, rituals we must used.
By joining this forum, I am happy meet another user who has different background and cultures, and what I learn from this forum is God created human in differences (4913), so there is no superior n divine culture in this world.Although when I first left Sunni to join Quran alone, my dogmas against west still stuck in my minds, but I'm a scholar and I can easilly erased the dogmas.
@Pixelrow you must learn it too.
Same for the marriage, each people has own marriage tradition n cultures.
So for boyfriend-girlfriend relationship if it proposed just for a steps for marriage, I think it's allowed in Islam.But I still cannot say is Sex before marriage allowed in ISlam or not. -
One of the God's commandments says "You shall not commit adultery." Adultery is sex outside marriage, with person you are not married to, and there is no such a thing as a temporary marriage in Quran btw.
In my opinion muslims who cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims.
peace
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I agree with @Emil.The Quran only command us to niqah, but Quran doesn't say how and what tradition, rituals we must used.
By joining this forum, I am happy meet another user who has different background and cultures, and what I learn from this forum is God created human in differences (4913), so there is no superior n divine culture in this world.Although when I first left Sunni to join Quran alone, my dogmas against west still stuck in my minds, but I'm a scholar and I can easilly erased the dogmas.
@Pixelrow you must learn it too.
Same for the marriage, each people has own marriage tradition n cultures.
So for boyfriend-girlfriend relationship if it proposed just for a steps for marriage, I think it's allowed in Islam.But I still cannot say is Sex before marriage allowed in ISlam or not.Salam Earthdom
Well said.
I also think the term boyfriend/girlfriend is very misleading. It all depends on where you come from. In my corner of the world it holds a quite high status, much higher I imagine than in the US for example.......
We do not get married in this country...........not many anyways.........Reason being is the judicial court has empowered the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with the same protective laws (inheritance, financial obligations) as a marriage.
So if you live with a person that you have a sexual relationship with you are by default (without signing any papers) "married" according to the law ..............However technically speaking you are not "married" because you never had the ceremony nor signed any papers........ confusedAnyways, when people are referring to their boyfriend/girlfriend they live with, most of them refer to them as "my wife/husband".............and that I think is the important part, that they have all the intentions to "belong" to one person only.
So I think the term boyfriend/girlfriend can create a lot of confusion between us because those terms are interpreted differently depending on who we are speaking to.
One of the God's commandments says "You shall not commit adultery." Adultery is sex outside marriage, with person you are not married to, and there is no such a thing as a temporary marriage in Quran btw.
In my opinion muslims who cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims.
A boyfriend can be an adulterer if he has sex with someone other than his girlfriend. That "adultery" holds the same status as if he was married.
Again, it comes down to the definition of the term boyfriend/girlfriend.I think a lot of people are against the notion that sex is allowed for non-married people because they automatically assume everybody will start having sex left and right. Like you said that muslims cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims. Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????
The question here is what the Quran says and not the question of what intentions people have who argue against the wedding ritual. We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
BTW I do not agree with the opening post on this thread. I think he has left out many important aspects. But still I agree with him only because he refers to "marriage" as a ritual, and this I do not think is the only "marriage" that is legitimate.
PIXELROW
This site is by Yuksel - as far as I understand. As for someone proclaiming Westernism - it is you. And everyone affected by Yuksel's thought.
I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage. For this I am sorry.
Since my rethorical skills are not good I will used someone else's words. The following are extracts from a thesis written byMuhammad Yunus and approved by al-Azhar al-Sharif, Cairo and recommended by Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl, Alfi Distinguished Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law."The Qur?an treats sexuality as a divine bounty. It recognizes human impulse of love and mercy for the opposite sex (3021), allows the members of either sex without specifying any age to have admiration for a believing member of the opposite sex (2221). Its verses directly relating to sexuality also invoke divine mercy (7189) and heedfulness of God (taqwa) (2223) thereby precluding any notion of sexual abuse or coercion as widely practiced in many Muslim lands and committed by some Muslim husbands against their wives."
"As a woman is divinely ordained to bear the burden and pain of pregnancy, delivery and nursing of the baby, a man remains under the divine obligation to take her full care as her qawwamah (434)"
"?And among His signs is that He has created for you, of yourselves, spouses (azwaj), that you may feel tranquility and relief (taskunu) in her and (He) has set love and mercy between you. There are signs in this for a people who reflect? (3021).
Historically, in most societies, love before marriage was condemned, while spouses in wedlock often concealed their love. This was because the feeling of love between man and woman was eyed with mute contempt or perhaps jealousy, while marriage was regarded as a purely biological necessity aimed at procreation. The verse acknowledges the spiritual and emotional attachment between the opposite sexes, and asks humans to reflect on this. Furthermore, the etymology of the word azwaj, (spouses) is suggestive of a pair of the opposite sexes, which indicates monogamy as a social norm, and leaves no ground to privilege one of the pair (such as male as traditionally held) over the other."
"The Qur?an makes a very passing reference to sexology blending this core human instinct with moral imperatives.
?He is the One who created you from a single soul and made its spouse (zauja) from it that he may feel tranquility and relief (yaskun) in her. Then when he has covered her, she bears a light burden and goes about with it. And when she grows heavy, they both pray to God, their Lord, ?if you give us a healthy (child), we shall indeed be grateful? (7189).
By employing the root SKN for the blessings of the sexual union the Qur?an acknowledges the divinity of sexual gratification and fulfillment. Elsewhere in the Qur?an the same root word (sakinah) is employed to convey the divine bliss and serenity that God sent down upon the Prophet and his companions at moments of utmost anguish and despair .
The Qur?an, however, allows sexual relationship between a man and a woman only through wedlock and gives full freedom in this regard ? albeit within broader paradigms of morality."
I don't want to post the entire thesis because it would be very long and very time consuming for anyone to read. I however read it one long night and I could not find anywhere a part that described the meaning of "wedlock" and "marriage". Not with a Quranic reference at least.
Why? Because there is no description in the Quran of what legal documents or rituals are required of a marriage to be legitimate. It is up to society to use their own culture and history to make up the "ceremony" as they please. If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL.
If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram -
I also think the term boyfriend/girlfriend is very misleading. It all depends on where you come from. In my corner of the world it holds a quite high status, much higher I imagine than in the US for example.......
Where do you come from? boyfriend/girlfriend are universally known as a relationship that is NOT formal .
"We do not get married in this country...........not many anyways.........Reason being is the judicial court has empowered the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with the same protective laws (inheritance, financial obligations) as a marriage. "
Meaningless . . . as Quran does NOT recognise non-Muslim authority. Nikah is a formal societal agreement.
"So if you live with a person that you have a sexual relationship with you are by default (without signing any papers) "married" according to the law ..............However technically speaking you are not "married" because you never had the ceremony nor signed any papers........ "
Utter tosh. Reading this line . . . where you say - TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
"Anyways, when people are referring to their boyfriend/girlfriend they live with, most of them refer to them as "my wife/husband".............and that I think is the important part, that they have all the intentions to "belong" to one person only."
Wrong. On all counts. That is NOT marriage. And no one refers to their boyfriend/girlfriend as wife/husband. No one . . . as the terms are NOT synonymous
"So I think the term boyfriend/girlfriend can create a lot of confusion between us because those terms are interpreted differently depending on who we are speaking to."
No hey cannot.
= = = =
"A boyfriend can be an adulterer if he has sex with someone other than his girlfriend. That "adultery" holds the same status as if he was married.
Again, it comes down to the definition of the term boyfriend/girlfriend."Absolute rubbish . . . you are just making it up. Islam/Quran DOES NOT recognise a relationship that is NOT formal. End of.
"Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????"
Yes YOU - and those who are in agreement.
"he question here is what the Quran says and not the question of what intentions people have who argue against the wedding ritual. "
As I have shown . . . you have no concern with what the Quran says . . .as you make it up. Hence why the bogus "wedding ritual" herring.
All Muslims agree there is no set "wedding ritual" . . . other than formal declaration of marriage within society. . . that is the point.
"We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. "
Already given - but you have chosen to overlook it.
"So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
"Dishonest - Ihave quoted you the verses . . . why don't you go back and see how you dismissed them.
= = = =
"I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. "
A get out close. That is simply your erroneous opinion. Else no words of mine imply this. . .
"I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage."
Wrong - you have confused yourself - probably on purpose. . . rules are what you follow - and a must . . . .hence look at the hocus pocus above. . .
This is why you denied Quran prescribes marriage. When it so OBVIOUSLY does.
" If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL."
There is no society that refers to boyfriend/girlfriend as marriage - the whole POINT of those terms is UN-MARRIED. . . and it is Western concept only.
And which Quran is allowing this? See you simply REFUSE to even look at the verses that perscribe marriage . . . in order to advance your BS.
"If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram"
In other words . . . ALL SOCIETIES ON EARTH.
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Salam Pixelrow
Where do you come from? boyfriend/girlfriend are universally known as a relationship that is NOT formal .
A word is just a word.......Your cow is brown, my cow is black and white......but both of them are cows
http//welcometosweden.blogspot.no/2008/01/swedish-sambo.html
Meaningless . . . as Quran does NOT recognise non-Muslim authority. Nikah is a formal societal agreement.
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/misinterpreted_verses/authority_(P1246).html
Utter tosh. Reading this line . . . where you say - TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
http//sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambolagen
Wrong. On all counts. That is NOT marriage. And no one refers to their boyfriend/girlfriend as wife/husband. No one . . . as the terms are NOT synonymous
How do you know what my fellow countrymen call their spouses? The term boyfriend/girlfriend is quite shady in my country. The only way to really define it as to what it means is by looking at the persons age.
After 60 years of marriage my grandmother still refers to my grandfather as her "boyfriend". My six year old daughter refers to a boy in her school as her "boyfriend".....No hey cannot.
Well obviously they can because you don't understand that boyfriend/girlfriend can mean alot of things.
Absolute rubbish . . . you are just making it up. Islam/Quran DOES NOT recognise a relationship that is NOT formal. End of.
Please enlighten me. What makes the relationship formal according to the Quran. If you are able, please refer to the Quran.
"Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????"
Yes YOU - and those who are in agreement.
Again, please enlighten me. When, where and how has anyone here promoted free sex and promiscuity?
All Muslims agree there is no set "wedding ritual" . . . other than formal declaration of marriage within society. . . that is the point.
I am starting to be a little concerned about you. Have you ever been to a muslim wedding? Do you understand that Islamic ceremonies differ immensly between the different sects. I think if you would ever attend a wedding in for example Iran you would come to understand that there are rituals....And by you being surprised that I got married in the mosque and you never heard of that before is clear evidence that you have little insight in your own religion and the diversity of it.
"We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. "
Already given - but you have chosen to overlook it.So give it to me again. What verses have I overlooked? Where do you find evidence that the common muslim wedding ceremony is written in the Quran.
"So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
"Dishonest - Ihave quoted you the verses . . . why don't you go back and see how you dismissed them.
Please quote again, I cannot find where you show evidence that the common muslim wedding ceremony is the only one approved by Allah.
"I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. "
A get out close. That is simply your erroneous opinion. Else no words of mine imply this. . .
I don't even understand what you mean....
"I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage."
Wrong - you have confused yourself - probably on purpose. . . rules are what you follow - and a must . . . .hence look at the hocus pocus above. . .
This is why you denied Quran prescribes marriage. When it so OBVIOUSLY does.
So what is the meaning of marriage? Again, some Quranic references would be nice.
" If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL."
There is no society that refers to boyfriend/girlfriend as marriage - the whole POINT of those terms is UN-MARRIED. . . and it is Western concept only.
And which Quran is allowing this? See you simply REFUSE to even look at the verses that perscribe marriage . . . in order to advance your BS.
I love my girlfriend. I have solemnly pledged to her, our family and Allah that I will provide for her, I will protect her and I will be loyal to her. She is allowed to be my wife according to the Quranic rules (not my close relative, she is of age etc etc) and I have offered a dowry she finds suitable. I have also seen to it that the law recognises my pledge to her as a valid pledge.
Am I married to her?
"If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram"
In other words . . . ALL SOCIETIES ON EARTH.
Are you sure? ALL societies on earth? Pretty bold statement
I find you interesting. I have always been amazed by people who has a dogmatic opinion about something they know nothing about. I am not talking about your religious belief, that would be disrespectful. I am talking about that you think the Quran alone muslims ( yuck....hate using that term) are complete idiots eventhough you know nothing about them.
You better be careful though. One day some smart QA cookie (obviously not me) will plant a seed of doubt in your mind and before you know it you will see Islam in a totally different way.
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"A word is just a word.......Your cow is brown, my cow is black and white......but both of them are cows"
I have marked - how you've avoided answering . . . where you are from. And posted this nonsense. Words are very important!
"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end."
Another bizarre response . . . as it does NOT answer what was asked. . . .
"Meaningless . . . as Quran does NOT recognise non-Muslim authority. Nikah is a formal societal agreement. "
"http//sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambolagen"
Even more weird!
"How do you know what my fellow countrymen call their spouses? The term boyfriend/girlfriend is quite shady in my country. The only way to really define it as to what it means is by looking at the persons age."
Well my dear . . . if you had bothered to answer . . . But I am certain.
"After 60 years of marriage my grandmother still refers to my grandfather as her "boyfriend". My six year old daughter refers to a boy in her school as her "boyfriend"....."
Wrong - I do not believe you.
"Please enlighten me. What makes the relationship formal according to the Quran. If you are able, please refer to the Quran."
I already have . . .read previous post.
"Again, please enlighten me. When, where and how has anyone here promoted free sex and promiscuity?"
As I said YOU. And read the original line
"Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????""
it is funny how you left this off.
"I am starting to be a little concerned about you. Have you ever been to a muslim wedding? Do you understand that Islamic ceremonies differ immensly between the different sects. I think if you would ever attend a wedding in for example Iran you would come to understand that there are rituals....And by you being surprised that I got married in the mosque and you never heard of that before is clear evidence that you have little insight in your own religion and the diversity of it."
If you bother to read replies . . . properly - rather than be in haste to put up bizarre answer - that only scream . . . "I cannot answer" . . .
What rituals a culture adopts - and what religion dictates are 2 different things . . . in theory Islamic wedding a re simple affairs.
However - it is an important juncture . . . people celebrate it - in their own ways . . . it is allowed - as long as they do not do what is unlawful .
"And by you being surprised that I got married in the mosque and you never heard of that before is clear evidence that you have little insight in your own religion and the diversity of it."
No it isn't . . . as no one can no everything. Also it is merely your claim . . . which is more or less unverifiable. See - another illogical and poorly thought out response. And then there is the question of where do you live?
"So give it to me again. What verses have I overlooked? Where do you find evidence that the common muslim wedding ceremony is written in the Quran."
This "Quran only" article
http//submission.org/marriage_in_Quran.html
"Please quote again, I cannot find where you show evidence that the muslim wedding is the only wedding approved by Allah."
See above and past post.
"I don't even understand what you mean...."
I am saying you made it up! Baseless Opinion
"So what is the meaning of marriage? Again, some Quranic references would be nice."
http//submission.org/marriage_in_Quran.html
"I love my woman. I have solemnly pledged with her, family and Allah as a witness that I will provide for her, I will protect her and I will be loyal to her. She is allowed to be my wife according to the Quranic rules (not my close relative, she is of age etc etc)
Am I married to her?"
Could be . . .the info is too little.
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Marriage is a formal contract - between man and woman.
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Has to be declared publicly - immediately at least 2 people witnessed it. And that society is aware . . .
Which seem to have been done.
"Are you sure? ALL societies on earth? Pretty bold statement"
A chance for you to come with and add to your earlier claim . . . which noticeably - You didn't do. . . doh!
"I find you interesting. I have always been amazed by people who has a dogmatic opinion about something they know nothing about. I am not talking about your religious belief, that would be disrespectful. I am talking about that you think the Quran alone muslims ( yuck....hate using that term) are complete idiots eventhough you know nothing about them. "
Sorry - it does not work that way . . . . I hate, detest and I am disgusted by your beliefs - and them I do know about . . . as they are clear.
I have yet to express any views about the people. Your inference is baseless.
Look at this attempt - at re-interpreting marriage to mean "non-marital" relations - just like Westernism.
"You better be careful though. One day some smart QA cookie (obviously not me) will plant a seed of doubt in your mind and before you know it you will see Islam in a totally different way."
Don't worry . . . I say my prayers . . . hopefully the devil will keep his distance. . .
It is noticeable isn't it . . . the debate kind of moving away from . . . Islam and Marriage. . .
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My dear Pixelrow
I am not certain what kind of person you are, but it seems you need to "slow down" a little and actually read what others write. You make it into a point that I am not answering you about where I am from when it is clearly written in the link I provided. What part of "WelcomeToSweden" did you miss?
You question the law of my country, and when I attach the paragraphs from the law (although in Swedish, but I think you are fully able to google translate) you disregard it by saying that it is "even more weird".
When I tell you about my family you respond by saying that you do not believe me. Are you calling me a liar?
I ask you according to you and your belief what a marriage means. You reply by posting a web-page that includes verses that you a couple of posts ago were not recognising as proof of what marriage means. Furthermore, the webpage in question is from a group of people you refer to as the devil.....
I leave things out in my questions to you. You are very quick to pick that up but you use your keen eye as an excuse to not answer the question at all.
I don't get it......You show your compassion by being telling me how you detest and is disguted by my beliefs but on the same time you use my understanding and not your own of the Quran to try to prove that you are right????
You are very right that this discussion has nothing to do with sex before marriage anymore. So let's go back to that, shall we?
• I have not found any evidence that the wedding ritual that is practiced today in the muslim communities are according to a practice set down by the law of Allah. If you think I am wrong, please provide me with the verses and we can discuss them
• I have not found any evidence that the wedding contract "Nikkha" includes any obligation of the couple to love and respect eachother which is a criteria set down by Allah according to 3021 and 7198. Simple logic, there must be compassion between the man and the woman, otherwise it could never be a marriage, and without marriage no sex allowed. Therefore the traditional "Nikkah" is void as proof for legal sexual intercourse. If I have missed anything, please let me know, I would love to be wrong about this
• I have not found any evidence that a bond between two people who follow the rules and guides according to the Quran should not be considered married just because they do not have a ceremony in "muslim-style". If you think I am wrong, please provide me with the verses and we can discuss it
• I have not found any evidence that a non-muslim couple should not be considered married as long as they do not go against any of the Quranic laws
Like I said before. If a relationship between a man and a woman includes all that the Quran asks of them, then they can call their relationship whatever they want. They are allowed to be boyfriend/girlfriend, they are allowed to be husband/wife or whatever in the world they choose to call it. All the rules have been followed, all checks out..........Why are they still not married I ask you?
When I asked you if I was married according to Islam you said it depends if there was a formal contract or not. Now I ask you to show me the contract you are talking about. What piece of paper has Allah given us to make us married and not fornicators?
I assume it is in the Quran somewhere......Where in it does it state I have to sign a piece of paper to change me from fornicator to husband?
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Good points
Peace
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"I am not certain what kind of person you are, but it seems you need to "slow down" a little and actually read what others write. You make it into a point that I am not answering you about where I am from when it is clearly written in the link I provided. What part of "WelcomeToSweden" did you miss?"
Which isn't declaring your country. Do you have trouble stating - "I live in Sweden"?
"You question the law of my country, and when I attach the paragraphs from the law (although in Swedish, but I think you are fully able to google translate) you disregard it by saying that it is "even more weird"."
So why make these points now - it would have been helpful before!
"(although in Swedish, but I think you are fully able to google translate) "
You are accusing me! Have you read the document! It is a blog post . . . and not about law. Read it yourself. It doesn't equate that boyfriend/girlfriend equals to marriage.
For example
"Some people even forego marriage and instead live as sambo"
"So why not give it a shot? The prevailing attitude in the US against living together often seems to be religious based. So that excludes me for sure. And maybe that?s why the Swedes have such little problem with living in sin outside of marriage. As I?ve mentioned before in this blog, Sweden isn?t exactly a bastion of religious fervor."
Also Google translate does NOT give exact translations - the tool only work is you are familiar with BOTH languages - else you will miss the contextual mistakes.
"When I tell you about my family you respond by saying that you do not believe me. Are you calling me a liar? "
Nope - not yet . . . When I am going to call you a liar - I will come out with it. Reserved judgement. I am not sure whether you are telling the truth or not.
"I ask you according to you and your belief what a marriage means. You reply by posting a web-page that includes verses that you a couple of posts ago were not recognising as proof of what marriage means. Furthermore, the webpage in question is from a group of people you refer to as the devil....."
See - now here is a lie. I have never referred to "Quran-only" as devil.
Also this is wrong too
"You reply by posting a web-page that includes verses that you a couple of posts ago were not recognising as proof of what marriage means."
"I leave things out in my questions to you. You are very quick to pick that up but you use your keen eye as an excuse to not answer the question at all."
I have not answered anything . . . just ask me straight. I ALWAYS answer.
"I don't get it......You show your compassion by being telling me how you detest and is disguted by my beliefs but on the same time you use my understanding and not your own of the Quran to try to prove that you are right????"
huh? That website - I posted . . . is NOT what you say.
It does not claim that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are okay . . . it clearly advocates marriage.
That stance is fine.
Yours is wrong.
"I have not found any evidence that the wedding ritual that is practiced today in the muslim communities are according to a practice set down by the law of Allah. If you think I am wrong, please provide me with the verses and we can discuss them"
Redundant question . . . I have already answered this. Muslims around the world have "rituals" that are according to their local culture - and their is NOTHING wrong with that - as long as anything unlawful isn't committed. They are extra.
Islamic marriage is simple - the basic requirements. Minimum 2 witness . . . their is contract between man-wife - and society knows these 2 are a couple. That is about it.
"I have not found any evidence that the wedding contract "Nikkha" includes any obligation of the couple to love and respect eachother which is a criteria set down by Allah according to 3021 and 7198."
I have answered this as well.
It is kind of obvious - if 2 people agree to marry - they will live with some affection and mercy. . . that CANNOT be legislated. Else - by your logic. . . . if 2 people fall out of love - then instant divorce.
"Simple logic, there must be compassion between the man and the woman, otherwise it could never be a marriage, and without marriage no sex allowed."
Wrong . . . if you read the verses . . . they are NOT commands . . . but information giving sentences. Only direct commands - or verses that pertain commands can be legislated as "religious law" - of course then some things are just personal law - others have to be enforced by the state.
"Therefore the traditional "Nikkah" is void as proof for legal sexual intercourse. If I have missed anything, please let me know, I would love to be wrong about this"
Yes you are wrong about this. What you are saying is - more than billion people are NOT married - according to you! And that is for generations . . . going back to the Prophet Muhammad !
Ridiculous? Yes.
"I have not found any evidence that a bond between two people who follow the rules and guides according to the Quran should not be considered married just because they do not have a ceremony in "muslim-style". If you think I am wrong, please provide me with the verses and we can discuss it"
Again - this has been answered. There is a minimum legal requirement for marriage. . . and that is it. And those are the rules of the Quran . . .
2 people shacking up - boyfriend/girlfriend style is simply WRONG according to Quran. And that is aligning Muslim beliefs with Westernism.
Hence why many "groups" of Quran-only have allowed . . . free mixing, alcohol. . . and whatnot.
"I have not found any evidence that a non-muslim couple should not be considered married as long as they do not go against any of the Quranic laws"
This was never under question . . . non-Muslims have their own laws . . .
boyfriend/girlfriend relationships - BY THEIR VERY DEFINITIONS are not marriage. Also - Muslim law does nto apply to non-Muslims. There is no requirement for them to follow Quran in order to be married.
ALL countries have minimum understanding of marriage - that is coined into being law.
"Like I said before. If a relationship between a man and a woman includes all that the Quran asks of them, then they can call their relationship whatever they want."
Wrong. Quran only recognises marriage. . . end of.
Else - why don't you find this permission.
See how you lack consistency. You know full well - you are making this up.
"They are allowed to be boyfriend/girlfriend, they are allowed to be husband/wife or whatever in the world they choose to call it. All the rules have been followed, all checks out..........Why are they still not married I ask you? "
Did you miss something?
boyfriend/girlfriend relationships - are ABOUT unmarried relationships.
If all laws of QUran about marriage are met - then it is a marriage!
See - how ridiculous this getting?
"When I asked you if I was married according to Islam you said it depends if there was a formal contract or not. Now I ask you to show me the contract you are talking about. What piece of paper has Allah given us to make us married and not fornicators? "
Formal contract is between 2 people. It is sensible to write it down - in case of divorce. Else - there is no need. . . the 2 parties have the right to waive.
Let us say - woman sets some conditions down - as she is from rich bg - then that is allowed.
Also - the state gets to decide what the minimum of marriage is. . . irrespective of where you live.
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- In a Muslim country - if you do not comply with minimum set requirement. You are not marriaed.
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- In non-Muslim country - if you do what Quran asks - then you are Islamically married. But the non Muslim state will not recongise it. Unless you fulfill its criteria.
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It is that simple.
"I assume it is in the Quran somewhere......Where in it does it state I have to sign a piece of paper to change me from fornicator to husband?"
Red herrings dear. Red herring.
This is far from over.
I am correct in my 1st assessment. This isn't about marriage. But about justifying it with Westernism.
I find this to be case REPEATEDLY . . . . with "Quran only".
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boyfriend/girlfriend relationships - BY THEIR VERY DEFINITIONS are not marriage. Also - Muslim law does nto apply to non-Muslims. There is no requirement for them to follow Quran in order to be married.
boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is depending to the performer.If just proposed as step to marriage only, I think it's allowed, so that kind of relationship can be considered as "engagement".Boyfriend/girlfriend has good in psycological too, because both two couple can be know each other very well before they do actual relationship/marriage.
But if bfriend/gfriend just used for playing or just for syahwat like naughty youth do and not proposed for nikkah.I think it's haram and considered as adultery/lewd.
@Pixelrow you may misintepreted that relationship as vulgar n pro syahwat.But not at all.In Indonesia or Malaysia, despite Muslim majority bfriend/gfriend already practiced by most people even they're a santri or student of Islam.But they're do not sex during that relationsip, because they still claim themself following Sunni.
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boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is depending to the performer.If just proposed as step to marriage only, I think it's allowed, so that kind of relationship can be considered as "engagement".Boyfriend/girlfriend has good in psycological too, because both two couple can be know each other very well before they do actual relationship/marriage.
But if bfriend/gfriend just used for playing or just for syahwat like naughty youth do and not proposed for nikkah.I think it's haram and considered as adultery/lewd.
@Pixelrow you may misintepreted that relationship as vulgar n pro syahwat.But not at all.In Indonesia or Malaysia, despite Muslim majority bfriend/gfriend already practiced by most people even they're a santri or student of Islam.But they're do not sex during that relationsip, because they still claim themself following Sunni.
"boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is depending to the performer."
In English - this sentence does not make much sense.
"If just proposed as step to marriage only, I think it's allowed, so that kind of relationship can be considered as "engagement"."
You think? On what basis? Your thinking isn't good enough. The question is of "sex". It is NOT allowed.
"Boyfriend/girlfriend has good in psycological too, because both two couple can be know each other very well before they do actual relationship/marriage."
No Muslim society has EVER validated "sex outside of Marriage". Jews and Christians before us were commanded to do so likewise.
"In Indonesia or Malaysia, despite Muslim majority bfriend/gfriend already practiced by most people even they're a santri or student of Islam.But they're do not sex during that relationsip, because they still claim themself following Sunni."
Most people? I don't think so. . . Indonesia is a still a traditional Muslim society . . . A western bfriend/gfriend relationship involves sex - and living together and whatnot.
We are not talking about mere friendship.
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In English - this sentence does not make much sense.
You said these like you're expert in English.I told you, I ever study english in English First course (Hopefully your country has it's branches).The lecturers not only from locals, but also foreigner like from Aussie, Wales, USA, Canada.Although they're came from different english dialect, but they're still understand my english despite bad grammar n pronunciation.
You think? On what basis? Your thinking isn't good enough. The question is of "sex". It is NOT allowed.
As I said, if that relationship just for lust, syahwat or just playing sexual only.It's haraam.
The proof is in the Quran only talk about "nikah" but not what tradition we must used.Because you're following hadith your interpretation on adultery and nikaah is different from Quran alone, so there is no point in debate in it again.No Muslim society has EVER validated "sex outside of Marriage". Jews and Christians before us were commanded to do so likewise.
Because that Muslims still following hadith like you.Do you think the majority always true.
"And indeed, many/majority among the people are defiantly disobedient."(Shaheh International 549)
"And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying."(Shaheeh International 6116)
What proof?In Christian teaching bfriend/gfriend relationship is still allowed by the Chruch.
Most people? I don't think so. . . Indonesia is a still a traditional Muslim society . . . A western bfriend/gfriend relationship involves sex - and living together and whatnot.
I'm Indonesian, so I know more than you.Yes, in here most Muslims follow Sunni, but branches into some mainstream.In here ulamas have different mainstream like liberal, conservative (like you), wahhabism, leftist, rightist, etc.So it is not something weird in here, if you saw a woman with hijab, good in reciting Quran, but she has a boyfriend.
I don't really know what western's style of bfriend-gfriend, but I believe each region has own style of that relation
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"You said these like you're expert in English."
To some degree, yes I am. And comparatively, your English is poorer. All I pointed out is - I did not understand your sentence - due to poor English.
"As I said, if that relationship just for lust, syahwat or just playing sexual only.It's haraam.
The proof is in the Quran only talk about "nikah" but not what tradition we must used.Because you're following hadith your interpretation on adultery and nikaah is different from Quran alone, so there is no point in debate in it again."Hey - you replied to my comment!
Nikah by its very definition is "marriage". Also - the requirement of Nikah - like praying - comes from the Quran. Only the rest - how it was performed by the Holy prophet and etc - is from Hadith.
549
And judge, , between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
This verse is not really a reference to Muslims.
Then formulating the law - is not by ordinary Muslims - but qualified scholars.
"What proof?In Christian teaching bfriend/gfriend relationship is still allowed by the Chruch."
Not really - they eventually just gave in. As far as OT goes - it clearly forbade it.
"I'm Indonesian, so I know more than you."
Maybe . . . D But just being Indonesian - is not really a qualification for knowledge!
"In here ulamas have different mainstream like liberal, conservative (like you), wahhabism, leftist, rightist, etc.So it is not something weird in here, if you saw a woman with hijab, good in reciting Quran, but she has a boyfriend."
That is comment in poor taste. Indonesia is a fairly conservative Muslim country. The last I knew - it was on the brink of making "sex-before-marriage" a criminal law. Something you failed to mention.
"I don't really know what western's style of bfriend-gfriend, but I believe each region has own style of that relation"
If you are unaware of the term . . . what are you arguing about?
I find this to be fairly common here. . . people have very limited knowledge of something - but give out certain opinions. The problem is - there are no set principles - anything goes.
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Peace,
I am not sure if I agree a little bit with pixelrow about boyfriend / girlfriend vs marriage, but I think a relationship has to be a bit more formal than just get together and live with each other. At least you should be married when you get children for otherwise there are no legal documents and the marriage contract gives security to both parts in the relationship.
I know about 'Sambo-lagen' in Sweden, but this relationship is like having a concubine in old thinking. I think you ought to marry your your Sambo if you plan to spend your days with her and that sooner than later.
The marriage laws of Sweden gives each part in the marriage rules to follow, to look after each other and help during financial hardships. Sambo-lagen is easily exploited and one part may be abused in different ways. However, Sweden is doing well when it comes to protect people. Sambo-lagen is a first line of defense for newly met couples.
In old times, a marriage often took place when the father of the woman handed over the her to the man after he had asked him to be allowed to marry her. There was usually a long family celebration and the man was supposed to have intercourse with her to finalize the marriage bond. He could refuse her in the bedchamber, and the Quran tells us he has the right to get out of the marriage without a divorce then. From very old times there were no legal papers, but an oath taken verbally and witnesses to that.
In other words, it is the sex that traditionally made a couple married. If I remember, traditionally if a man and a woman had sex they were forced to get married or rather became married then. If one of them was already in a marriage bond then it is adultery. It is a big shame to everyone if someone commits adultery, especially to the father of the culprit whom had the responsibility of handing over the daughter in the first place while telling her how she must be to her future husband.
From an old point of view, sex before marriage forces the couple to get married, but if they are not currently married it cannot be adultery.
A concubine was no more than a servant to the family and seems to be little more worth than a slave. This woman seems to mainly help the wife of a proper marriage. It is this person the Quran is referring to when it says what your right hand possesses. I am sure that you were not allowed to have sex with her if the wife did not allow it.
Perhaps concubines came from less respectable familes which could not manage to have their daughters married because no one was interested in them. Some maybe gave them away as concubines to be servants maybe for a lesser reward.
Anyway, a sexual relationship without marriage is not right, not on a long term basis, especially if one intends to have children.
God bless you
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Sex before marriage is NOT allowed in Islam. This is simply conforming to Western Ideals - by changing the religion to suit your own desires. There is no translation of the Quran that allows this.
There is no expert of Arabic who would advocate any such translation. End of.
People on here tendto make anything up . . .
Of course , as long as the norms of marriege are upheld , it doesn'r matter what you call it .......
And that is what the quran is saying , nice clean fun
bravo
but without marriage, to me anyway , it is nice but dirty fun.
peace
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Of course , as long as the norms of marriege are upheld , it doesn'r matter what you call it .......
And that is what the quran is saying , nice clean fun
bravo
but without marriage, to me anyway , it is nice but dirty fun.
peace
"It doesn't matter what you call it" is from yourself. If you look at the Quran - it calls it marriage. End of.
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Salam Pixelrow. What happened to you, why are you now called Pixelrowed?
Which isn't declaring your country. Do you have trouble stating - "I live in Sweden"?
Sorry, didn't know you would not understand.
You are accusing me! Have you read the document! It is a blog post . . . and not about law. Read it yourself. It doesn't equate that boyfriend/girlfriend equals to marriage.
For example
"Some people even forego marriage and instead live as sambo"
"So why not give it a shot? The prevailing attitude in the US against living together often seems to be religious based. So that excludes me for sure. And maybe that?s why the Swedes have such little problem with living in sin outside of marriage. As I?ve mentioned before in this blog, Sweden isn?t exactly a bastion of religious fervor."
Also Google translate does NOT give exact translations - the tool only work is you are familiar with BOTH languages - else you will miss the contextual mistakes.
I am sorry but you must have missed one link I provided. It was not a blogpost but the law (although from Wikipedia but it checks out)
The blogspot I provided (which had nothing to do with the law-text) was from an American woman who had a somewhat difficult time understanding the categories of relationships in Sweden. I posted this in hope to make you see that you are not the only one who has difficulty understanding the difference between married and non-married-but-considered-married relationships. It was not posted as evidence that I was right and you were wrong. It was not "proof" that the sambo is considered to be the same as married but information intended for you so you may understand that what-is-what depends on society/culture. All I wanted to show you that people have different opinions about what makes the bond between man and woman legitimate, religious or lawful. I find it amusing however that this westernized atheist woman shares many opinions with you about what is a legitimate relationship.
As to the Nikkah, I think one of the biggest differences between you (sunni?) and us QA is that we acknowledge the fact that the Quran has a spirituality to it. It is not about black and white but there is also many verses that speak about love, respect and committment. Not only to your spouse but to humankind in general. Come to think about it I am wrong to say that the sunnis cannot see this. My wife is sunni and she is one of the most spiritual persons I know......I love her deeply and it is that love that made me follow the rules of the Quran because if I didnt I could not marry her. It is the LOVE for her and our children that makes it easy. Without the love I would only have rules to follow....... I could not interpret the Quranic guidelines any different than it says a bond between man and wife must include compassion. Like I said, when I got married by a Nikkah none of the so-called religious leaders asked if there was any compassion. They were more interested in finding out what the dowry was. And as far as I know there is no requirement at all with regards to compassion in any of the different Nikkahs (sunni, shia etc).
No, I am not saying there is no love between 1 billion muslim marriages. I am saying that there was no CRITERIA for love.Brother Earthdom told you about Indonesia, I completely concur with him since I grew up in Singapore wedged between Malaysia and Indonesia (Selamat pagi Earthdom). The malay community in S'pore is mostly muslim and the muslim kids in my neigbourhood had boyfriend/girlfriends with the blessings of their parents. Some even had MatSalleh boyfriend/girlfriends which was something almost taboo in the chinese community.......well at least back then in the 80's......So the muslim community was far more liberal than the chinese majority. Strange that the Islamic minority community could be more open than the polytheistic-western-influenced chinese majority community, don't you think Pixelrow?
Dearest Pixelrow, I will try to say this with as easy words as possible. Your english is not the best compared to mine and some of the stuff you write I have trouble understanding due to your grammar. So I apologise beforehand if I have missed something that you have already stated, maybe my beef with you is no beef at all, maybe we do agree more than I know....
We both agree that the rules of marriage according to the Quran must be followed.
I think that as long as the rules are followed the couple in question is by Quranic definition "married". What we choose to call it doesnt matter. Therefore married, nikkah, boyfriend/girlfriend, sambo, partner, shacked up, my man/woman or whatever you want to call it has no value. They are subjective labels and none of them is a guarantee that the Quranic rules have been followed to the letter.
It is the Quranic rules that define if a couple is allowed to have a sexual relationship, not the labels defined by societies of what is what.
Therefore there is no "document" or "paper" that can act as proof for a "halal" sexual relationship. The "halal" comes from following the guidelines as prescribed in the Quran.
Now, correct me if I am wrong but you are saying the same thing
I have already answered this. Muslims around the world have "rituals" that are according to their local culture - and their is NOTHING wrong with that - as long as anything unlawful isn't committed. They are extra.
Islamic marriage is simple - the basic requirements. Minimum 2 witness . . . their is contract between man-wife - and society knows these 2 are a couple. That is about itSo what is the problem? You do not like the term boyfriend/girlfriend, I get that. But just face the fact, this term means different things depending on where you live. I have tried to explain to you that you must look at the relationship, not the label. I am starting to think you (probably out of sheer stubborness) will never accept this...........