How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace nimnimak_11! Could you pls explain to me why in Q424 an independent woman is not to be married except as MMA?
Peace Omeiza
I have looked at it before to see wether this would break down the argument about pre-marital sex. I didn't think that it would but I'm not sure why the Quran would request this. I don't think i can provide an answer, but i think i can provide important things worth reflecting on.
Firstly "independent women" has the following meanings
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.From the above there are various meanings but at first glance i think the word chaste should be canceld out because of 424. It would not make sense for chaste women to be "forbidden for marriage unless they come from MMA" whilst the following "slave girls" from 425 can be married without them having to come from MMA so there has to be something else other then chastity that seperates these two.
What is translated as slave girls or youths or young women or dependant women in 425 is the following
Fa-Ta-Ya = to be young, full-grown, brave, generous, manly qualities, bold, courageous, fine fellow, gallant, young comrade, young slave, servant.
Now what is chosen as the meaning here, will effect the understanding of the so called "independent women"I have seen the women in 424 translated as independent and those in 425 as dependent. But this to me would not makes sense because these words are not within the roots so how have some translators come to that conclusion? This is something those who are more skilled would have to explain.
Another important thing to keep in mind is 2433. This verse could be the key to solving the meanings of the above. Here is another root which will be imprtant to look at in this verse
Ba-Ghayn-Ya = Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste
Seeking what one should not seek
Seeking game or prey
Place where a thing is sought, way or manner in which a thing is sought.Bear in mind that this root appears to be compared to the root Ha-Sad-Nun. So chaste and unchaste is what would come to my mind. But the issue of fatayat and muhsinat makes this unclear for me.
I'm hoping to look at this topic in more detail. But first i need to finish this thread and summarise wether sex with MMA is permitted or not.
Oh and one more thing that might be of use to you which i just remebered in replying to bigmo
Another way in which chastity occurs in translations is from the following root
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
husun n.m. (pl. of husn) 592
hassana vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5914
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 2191, 6612
impf. act. 1248, 2180
impf. pass. 425
pcple. act. 424, 55
pcple. pass. f. 424, 425, 425, 425, 55, 55, 244, 2423
tahassana vb. (5) n.vb. 2433
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222Some may argue that this means virgin based on the possible meaning of preserved. But as is clear, there are various meanings to this root. I will argue against why it should not mean virgin
Look at 424 particularly this part if you are seeking with your money to be independent
Whats translated here as independent is actually from the root H-s-n. So does that mean that its only right to marry provided that we seek to be virgins within our marriage? I think not. Thus clearly we cannot take virgin as a definition.
So on the basis of that refutation so far premrital sex is ok. -
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_controversies_related_to_Nikah_Mut'ah
Salam Afridi
I also believe marriages to be not for lust. That is clear in morality and reason as well as in AQ.
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And what is the verses in surat al noor talking about then?
Did you mean 2433?
If yes then have a look at this
The third example which IMO was the best objection and that?s why I included it in my article
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),Ok Yusuf Ali has translated what is actually in Arabic abstain, to chaste. This could easily be abstain from getting married until God gives them means out of his grace. Does this not make more sense? To abstain from something that you don?t have the means for (in this case marriage) and not sex.
About the root Ha-Sad-Nun
Another way in which chastity occurs in translations is from the following root
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
husun n.m. (pl. of husn) 592
hassana vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5914
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 2191, 6612
impf. act. 1248, 2180
impf. pass. 425
pcple. act. 424, 55
pcple. pass. f. 424, 425, 425, 425, 55, 55, 244, 2423
tahassana vb. (5) n.vb. 2433
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222Some may argue that this means virgin based on the possible meaning of preserved. But as is clear, there are various meanings to this root. I will argue against why it should not mean virgin
Look at 424 particularly this part ?if you are seeking with your money to be independent?
What?s translated here as independent is actually from the root H-s-n. So does that mean that it?s only right to marry provided that we seek to be virgins within our marriage? I think not. Thus clearly we cannot take virgin as a definition.
So on the basis of that refutation so far premrital sex is ok. -
peace
its so simple; please don't be offended
424
Also women who guard (who can't marry you for their own reasons), except those whom you possess(you are married to) Thus hath Allah ordained(prohibition) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.peace
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peace
its so simple; please don't be offended
424
Also women who guard (who can't marry you for their own reasons), except those whom you possess(you are married to) Thus hath Allah ordained(prohibition) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.peace
There is nothing in this post for me to take offence in )
peace
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If we translate women in Q424 as married women & MMA as enslaved women then this thread is closed!
If MMA are indeed to mean enslaved women and not those who are commited to you by oath, then yes most likely premarital sex is a no simply because sex would then be exclusive to spouses and enslaved women and not with those who are committed to you by oath.
Problem with this IMO is that in verses such as 2221, the word used for slave is not the phrase MMA but it is the followingAlif-Miim-Waw = female/woman made/became a slave, handmaid, utter a cry, follow/imitate.
amah n.f. 2221, 2432
So I think that MMA are most likely not slaves.
peace
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If MMA are indeed to mean enslaved women and not those who are commited to you by oath, then yes most likely premarital sex is a no simply because sex would then be exclusive to spouses and enslaved women and not with those who are committed to you by oath.
Problem with this IMO is that in verses such as 2221, the word used for slave is not the phrase MMA but it is the followingAlif-Miim-Waw = female/woman made/became a slave, handmaid, utter a cry, follow/imitate.
amah n.f. 2221, 2432
So I think that MMA are most likely not slaves.
peace
But here again you seem to seperate between spouses and those commited to you by oath. But why do you seperate the two? You still have not defined what is a spouse and how that differs from those commited to you by oath? Thats why this argument keeps going in circles.
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But here again you seem to seperate between spouses and those commited to you by oath. But why do you seperate the two? You still have not defined what is a spouse and how that differs from those commited to you by oath? Thats why this argument keeps going in circles.
I seperate the two because from AQ i get the impression that they are seperate. Why would verses need to be stated like this
Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame.
Some argue that they are the same thing but i doubt it. Verses like 424 make it clear that they are seperate i think
Also (prohibited are) muhsinat, except those whom your right hands possessThus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise does not say except those whom you are married to.Doesn't the above verse make it fairly clear that MMA are different to those whom you are married to? I think they can be those whom you intend to marry but i don't get the impression that they are those whom you are already married to.
The purpose of my article was to convey that sex with MMA is not haram and not to distinguish the difference between a spouse and an MMA (though this is important I'm just explaining why i havn't brought it up in this thread)
Some differences to marriage though are clear i think Marriage makes it clear that you have found the person you intend to live the rest of your life and start a family with. A relationship is not this. A relationship can range from a search for that person in which sex is not prohibited to something that's just about sex.
In my next post i'l do my best to do a short summary of everything discussed so far as impartially as i can.
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I seperate the two because from AQ i get the impression that they are seperate. Why would verses need to be stated like this
Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame.
Doesn't the above verse make it fairly clear that MMA are different to those whom you are married to? I think they can be those whom you intend to marry but i don't get the impression that they are those whom you are already married to.
Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
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Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
Salam Afridi
How can MMA mean slaves? Have a look at this Verses 423-24
Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths....423 begins by saying whats forbidden in marriage and 424 clearly adds muhsinat as forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA. If MMA were to be slaves then would mean that in order to marry muhsinat women, they first have to be your slaves. For this reason and also this reason
in verses such as 2221, the word used for slave is not the phrase MMA but it is the followingAlif-Miim-Waw = female/woman made/became a slave, handmaid, utter a cry, follow/imitate.
amah n.f. 2221, 2432
, i don't think MMA are slaves.
When you said
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.That depends on what an MMA is and what it takes to become an MMA. It could be something like an engagement or something less or maybe even more. I don't know but what i think i may know is that sex with MMA is not prohibited. That is what im arguing for.
To set the record straight as i think many accuse me of writing this article or starting this thread purely because i currently seek sex. I want to clarify and say that i am not. I seek to know wether it is forbidden or not, why and what are the boundries and again why such boundries. Just like one might seek to know wether salat has to be done the sunni way, the shia way or another way. It's not because one desires an easier salat as some may accuse those for not upholding salat the traditional way.
At first i rejected the notion of sex being exclusive to marriage prior to looking at the Quran because it did not make sense for two commited (and not irresponsible and selfish) people to be prohibited from such a thing. Nevertheless AQ is AQ and i said to myself even if I am engaged, I will not have sex untill i am married. So i looked to AQ and thought just what exactly are the conditions for marriage and what does AQ mean. Then i left this issue uncertain. Then the thread that David_k started reminded me of the topic of MMA. After posting in that thread, it was advised to me that i write an article on this after research and not just post things without researching and so I did.
I did not do this because i'm waiting for the nod to go and.........
I did this because the truth in this will effect things such as if i do end up in a commited relationship or what i advise my child (if i have one) with respect to this issue and so on. -
Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
peace
425 And whoever of you don?t have the means to marry the believing women who guard their chastity, then from those not guarding their chastity who commit by oath of your girls/women the believing and Allah knows your faith and you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardians and give them their bridal due in a fair manner They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for decent women (who guard their chastity). This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
All the ayah is saying is if you can't get the good quality stuff , then you can go for the not so good stuff laugh
but the risk does go up aswell.
peace
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Ok so here is a short summary of objections and answers to objections to the article. The primary purpose of this is to make clear objections that have not been mentioned so that they may be mentioned so that then they may be discussed. Also it is good for easy referencing and comparing.
Note that F= For sex with MMA and O= Objection to sex with MMA
O We are told to guard our private parts.
F Yes but the exception to this are spouses and MMA 235-6O Just because private parts don?t need to be guarded to MMA this does not mean sex is permissible to them
F How does it not? AQ is a complete book. If sex was to be exclusive to marriages, this would have been made clear. What has been made clear though is that there is no blame on those who do not guard their private parts to their spouses and MMA. 236O Why then are there guidelines in marriage such as the waiting period and not for MMA?
A A marriage oath is different to an MMA oath. Thus if they are not the same things then they will not have the same guidelines.O That would then mean that if a child that is born outside of pregnancy, then the father has no responsibility as opposed to the guideline for marriage where the father is responsible.
A This was the best objection (IMO)
Let?s look at 2233 And the mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of God, and know that God is watching over what you do.This verse applies to ALL mothers and ALL fathers. This is not about marriage alone. This is clear by the fact that there is no mention of married mothers or married husbands but more importantly it is made clearer by the fact that separation used in this verse is not the word talagh (divorce) where as in cases related to marriages the word talagh is used. This means that this verse encompasses cases of marriages as well outside of marriage.
O This verse occurs in a place where guidelines are set for marriages thus this verse is for marriages alone.
A The words of the verse convey otherwise. It makes clear that this verse is about ALL mothers and ALL fathers whether within marriage or outside it.O MMA are slaves
A Verses 423-24 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths....423 begins by saying whats forbidden in marriage and 424 clearly adds muhsinat as forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA. If MMA were to be slaves then would mean that in order to marry muhsinat women, they first have to be your slaves.
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To marry or have sex with a married woman is not allowed excep she becomes a slave. Two words can be used for a thing.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that MMA has two meanings?
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Take your time to study Q3350-52. A woman that offered herself is not MMA. Prophet should not marry anymore except MMA.
That which is decreed for the prophet in this case is different to us. He has rights that we don't in this case. We cannot relate those verses to us.
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Read the verses before 2233. It refers to divorced mothers.
I had done.
From 2226 onwards all verses are linked in a way to marriage. 2226 is at first unclear whether it's talking of marriage but because the next verse refers to the previous verse with the word talagh, it makes it clear that it is related. From there on all other verses upto 2233 have some clear implication of marriage. But 2333 has no signs of it being a marital relationship. It emphasises all mothers and all fathers "no mother shall be harmed....." and deliberately does not use the word talagh when talking of seperation.I know that you said that it is sandwiched between verses which talk of marriage but two things i want to point out
- 2233 could have used divorce mothers in place of just mothers but it did not do this for a reason.
- There are other exmaples of unrelated verses sandwiched in a topic. Look at 2238-239. The verses suddenly stop talking of marriage related issues and spends 2 verses talking of Salat before returning again to marriage related issues.
So the fact that it's sandwiched in marriage related verses does not make it exclusive to marriages. The words of 2333 IMO are clear on talking of all mothers and all fathers. Perhaps this could be that it is considering that the divorce has already happened and thus they are no longer husband or wife but again if anyone gets pregnant or anyone becomes a father wether within or outside a marriage that verse 2233 will surely apply to them.