How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

SarahY

Peace Nima

Your argument is weak because of the interpretation of ?zina? having sex without lawful means would = zina thus the allowance of sex with mma with no rules is weak because where is the lawful means? There is none it?s an assumption.

Ask yourself WHY is it you can do nikkah with MMA and why is it you need permission from the ahl to do nikkah with mma? This is proof to me that they don?t automatically become halal for you to assume they are halal for sex.

Isn?t that enough proof to understand it? did you even read asad?s notes? Or is it too illogical because you?re beyond tradition?

About the verses 2433 and 425 I don?t know enough about these, we?re discussing with ignorance that?s kinda dangerous. Seriously but I really feel you?re stuck with the thought of gf/bf type of relationship in regards to mma

Read the later part of 2433

?And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled , God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!?

What do you understand of this?

Read the later part of 425

Marry them, then, with their people's(ahl/ahlihinna) leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable. This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil. But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

What do you understand of this? I?ve highlighted parts specifically for focus. Tell me how you understand this as gf/bf relation or something alike to that.

Ambiguity would occure in verses like 235-6 and 2431. In 2431 relaxing of the dress code is mentioned in front of those specified. In 235-6 the private parts are allowed to be unguarded. What could the private parts being unguarded mean? Is it only a matter of exposure or somthing more? Remember MMA are mentioned alongside spouses here so in someways surely MMA must bear some relation to a spouse right?

This is an assumption. maybe we should question the idea of ?azwaj? and who fits that category. Remember mma have ahl people that care for them. There indicates some sort of protection for mma and weakness on their part.

So if mma are under your protection they?re like your family.. in your care then it would be normal for frj to be unguarded to azwaj and mma.

And again to un-guard does not mean to have sex with.

Salam.

nimnimak_11

Obviously you have to "unguard" your private part before you "have sex" with your spouse. However, as long as you associate "unguard" with "have sex" there will be a big hole in your mind regarding "sex before/without marriage". And thus you will not be able to see or consider other conditions where "unguarding" is carried without "having sex".

analogy. your optical disc drive in your computer or dvd player.

"Unguard" open/eject (thus Guard means "close" or Guarded when the tray is "in&quot

The Private Part is really just the inner surface of the tray.

"Have sex" Putting a disc in (and out. and in. and out... you get the idea)

One day Mrs. Drive was in such an ill condition that she couldn't clean herself by herself.

She really needed cleaning.

Fortunately Mrs. Drive's MMA came in to her aid -- she was going to clean her Mistress.

She said, 'Ma'am, please Unguard, I need to clean your Private Part'.

Mrs. Drive Unguarded so her MMA could clean her Private Part.

She cleaned her Mistress without putting any disc in.

Then Mrs. Drive Guarded herself and climbed back to her bed. She was clean.

I understand what you mean. It is similar to Sarah's argument. I am not saying that to unguard=to have sex. What I'm saying is that to ungaurd is to literally mean to ungaurd to others not expose but ungaurd which implies beyond exposure right? Now this is where we differ in understanding. Whilst here your understanding appears to be that the ungaurd has to be limited. Thus sex is part of that limitation you place, my argument is from WHERE did you get this limitation? It would be like me saying that you can't have sex with your spouse simply because ungaurd does not equal sex. Yes it does not equal sex but UNLESS restricted by some other verse, sex is within the unguarding of one's private parts. Do you get my line of reasoning? Do you know of a verse in the Quran that says something on the lines of "do not have sex with MMA" because only this kind of thing will effect 235-6 and only this will bring in limitations to what unguarding means. We can't put limitations of our own. Thus we can't automatically assume and limit sex to marriages and then attribute this law to the Quran.

If you however argue that any kind of sex (even in a non-controversial loving relationship) outside of marriage falls under fahasha (in which you have taken a subjective understanding on what is a fahasha where we all have to have a subjective understanding of things such as transgression) then your argument stands. The only way i could object to this would be to argue that sex in a loving relationship that does not have marriage status cannot be fahsha and you can argue otherwise because we would have different understandings of fahasha and thus part ways in our understandings.

But your analogy is in my opnion not an argument that can stand. As you need to explain from where you are getting these limitations from.

nimnimak_11

Salam Sarah

Read the whole of this post please ( & sorry for saying this just a precaution. It's kind of long reply but explains alot)

Your argument is weak because of the interpretation of ?zina? having sex without lawful means would = zina thus the allowance of sex with mma with no rules is weak because where is the lawful means? There is none it?s an assumption.

But how is it not lawful? By lawful do you understand that one has to have documents and signed contracts? When it is not made unlawful, it is lawful. There is no middle ground on this. Think about this. Let me try and explain this way.

Your starting point HAS to be that nothing in Quran is unlawful unless it says so or implies so clearly. If you don't take this approach then you could just place your own restrictions that the Quran has not placed and then claim that it is from the Quran.
I could claim that 6 hours of watching tv is unlawful but i have not the right in saying this unless it is made clear via a verse such as tv must be kept within 6 hours. There is no such verse similar to sex. However i can claim that 6 hours of tv is transgression and i would be making Quranic reference. However that is then my opnionSo whilst 6 hours is a transgression in my eyes and thus unlawful to me, for another it may not be. Circumstances, situation all effect whether it is a transgression or not. But i cannot come out and claim that TV is exclusive to within 6 hours.

If you see any weakness in that let me know and help so that i may be able to understand you better or maybe explain myself better to you.
Look at my reply to San for more details.

Ask yourself WHY is it you can do nikkah with MMA and why is it you need permission from the ahl to do nikkah with mma? This is proof to me that they don?t automatically become halal for you to assume they are halal for sex.

I have done and i explained in my last post that you don't need permission from ahl to do nikah with MMA. You need permission from ahl only if your MMA is a fatayat. But if your MMA is a muhsinat then you do not need permission. These are implicative proofs that MMA is someone whom you have a relationship with. Bear in mind that you cannot marry muhsinat unless they become your MMA first. Let me ask you similar to the way you have asked me why do you end up marrying your girlfriends? Is it not clear?

Isn?t that enough proof to understand it? did you even read asad?s notes? Or is it too illogical because you?re beyond tradition?

I have not read asad's notes. I am not sure what you mean by beyond tradition. But i believe i am not being unreasonable in what i'm saying nor am I letting what could be a cultural thing, distort getting to the truth. This is not about being modern. Tradition or modernness does't effect reason. Some traditions are nice to keep but they are not laws of God unless implied otherwise and some are just plain wrong and can be made clear via Quran.

About the verses 2433 and 425 I don?t know enough about these, we?re discussing with ignorance that?s kinda dangerous. Seriously but I really feel you?re stuck with the thought of gf/bf type of relationship in regards to mma

In this one case, i'm not discussing with ignorance. I am not stuck with that thought. It seems to be the one that best fits the context at the moment. If there is a better suggestion, i am pretty sure i will change my mind.

Look at my reply to Zubairus and then tell me what MMA could mean to you also fill in any gaps if you see any

43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you maintain by your oaths. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

From this i consider MMA to be possibly two things. Either a nanny or a caretaker of some sort or a girlfriend. My reasoning for this is that this is what is advised if one fears that they cannot be just to the orphans. Slave may also be equally possible so far

But then looking at 235-6, I take slave out of the equation for reasons i explained in my last post and I also take a nanny out of the eqution because it would not make sense to be able to unguard one's private parts to a nanny. Thus I consider something like a girlfriend as the strongest option.

235 And they guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.

I then consider the possibility of MMA to mean something like a girlfriend stronger with this verse

If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess....
So far we have concluded that to marry muhsinat, they must come from MMA. From the above is it also not such that to marry fatayat, they must come from MMA is well? The only other occurence of fatayat according to studyquran's project root thing is in 2433 and that verse does not say that fatayat can be married without them having to come from MMA.

Ok you then said

Read the later part of 2433

?And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled , God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!?

What do you understand of this?

Firstly it is not desirous of marriage. I think (from what i checked) It is tahason which is Ha-sad-nun the same root used for muhsinat. I take Ha-sad-nun to mean something like chaste at the moment.
Secondly it is not maidens(maidens mean slave girls right?), it is fatayat.
Finally the terms translated to whordom is bigha which is
Ba-Ghayn-Ya =
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste
Seeking what one should not seek
Seeking game or prey
Place where a thing is sought, way or manner in which a thing is sought

The ones in bold are the things i think are most likely to apply here. I don't think it says don't force your dependent daughters into relationship with others or marriage as clearly bigha (when looking at the root) does not represent that.
Thus this could mean don't force your dependent daughters to prostitution or to sleep with others just so you can gain money (which is pretty much prostitution but in a less direct way. You know like cons and things like that)
Note that Ha-sad-nun is used here in comparison to bigha and as Ha-sad-nun is not virginity as explained earlier in the thread, the understanding of bigha being something like prostituation becomes a stronger understanding IMO.

Read the later part of 425

Marry them, then, with their people's(ahl/ahlihinna) leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable. This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil. But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

What do you understand of this? I?ve highlighted parts specifically for focus. Tell me how you understand this as gf/bf relation or something alike to that.

Ok but first i'll quote the verse using a free-minds translation in which i'l attempt to replace important words with their arabic but note that i am not an arabic speaker so i could have the order of the words wrong which could make a huge difference and thus i'd appreciate if more if skilled arabic speakers clarify and correct me

425 And whoever of you have not the means to marry the muhsinat, then from your MMA of the fatayat. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be Ha-sad-nun, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.

If you can't marry the muhsinat, then marry the fatayat who are your MMA. So this means that the fatayat must first be your MMA. Same with muhsinat. It says don't marry just for sex conveying that you marry to become Ha-sad-nun. Which could be independent, chaste or something else.
If you need me to expand on this let me know and i'll try and explain better and more detailed.

So if mma are under your protection they?re like your family.. in your care then it would be normal for frj to be unguarded to azwaj and mma.

No WAY! Unguard is not the same as relaxing a dress code. A father is a family member but still you can't unguard your private part to them. You may be able to expose...I don't know but you certainly cannot unguard. Why? because of 235-6 which clearly says this.

And again to un-guard does not mean to have sex with.

Agreed

Peace

zubairus

Peace nimnimak,

Peace Zubairus

Sorry about the lateish reply. Got a bit distracted.

Oath on it's own is something i can't say in terms of Quran because i'm not sure. I know it's something very important to MMA but i was hoping first to round up all arguments against the act of sex with MMA or arguments for MMA being someting like a slave and then move onto the part of oath which is a very important part as this i think will determine much in terms of boundries and so on. It may even bring a completely different understanding to what an MMA is. But nevertheless i am still trying to conclude that sex with MMA is permissible based on what i have argued so far.

With respect to 3350
Not necessarily girlfriends. It could be like a fiance or something less. But i would think that it's on the lines of something which leads up to a marriage.
I can only think of relationships that do this. So i would think that it has to fall in the circle of a relationship. But the prophet's time was 1400 years ago i'm not sure how engagement and things like that would have worked back then.

Among the requirement for a successful discussion is defination of term. This I believe is missing in this thread, hence the prolong discussion.

Yes, I appreciate your calmness, a sign of maturity in discussion but you need to get your terms clearly first as a premises of discussion.

So, I will be waiting, looking forward to hearing from you your precise understanding of oath, MMA,among other key terms that are fundermental to the success of this discussion.

To you all, a discussion like this just like others of its type is important but more important is our sincere intention to embrace islam holistically, thereby living or striving to live a just life in our public and private eandeavour.

Note there are two communities in the world. viz the jahiliha and the righteous community. The jahiliya community is real having practical existence not existence at the level of internet discussion. So the community of the righteous. See the community of Ibrahim,muhamad among other models of ours.

As people that have decided to live a pursposeful life in the same house with the rebels against our creator, our challenge is to exist as a community in the real sense of community evolve for mankind.

If this look like a distraction. I am sorry. But THINK ABOUT IT.

ZUBAIRUS

nimnimak_11

Among the requirement for a successful discussion is defination of term. This I believe is missing in this thread, hence the prolong discussion.

Yes, I appreciate your calmness, a sign of maturity in discussion but you need to get your terms clearly first as a premises of discussion.

So, I will be waiting, looking forward to hearing from you your precise understanding of oath, MMA,among other key terms that are fundermental to the success of this discussion.

To you all, a discussion like this just like others of its type is important but more important is our sincere intention to embrace islam holistically, thereby living or striving to live a just life in our public and private eandeavour.

Note there are two communities in the world. viz the jahiliha and the righteous community. The jahiliya community is real having practical existence not existence at the level of internet discussion. So the community of the righteous. See the community of Ibrahim,muhamad among other models of ours.

As people that have decided to live a pursposeful life in the same house with the rebels against our creator, our challenge is to exist as a community in the real sense of community evolve for mankind.

If this look like a distraction. I am sorry. But THINK ABOUT IT.

ZUBAIRUS

Peace Zubairus

I have an exam tomorow but after tomorow I will look at oaths in as much detail as I am capable of and respond in this thread.
Till then i've been trying to makes sure i have not missed anything obvious or something beyond what i can recognise in terms of arabic even with the use of the tools provided on the internet.

SarahY

But Nima how is lawful?

If you can't marry the muhsinat, then marry the fatayat who are your MMA. So this means that the fatayat must first be your MMA. Same with muhsinat. It says don't marry just for sex conveying that you marry to become Ha-sad-nun. Which could be independent, chaste or something else.
If you need me to expand on this let me know and i'll try and explain better and more detailed.

I disagree with you. Explain it better if you can.

Notice the verse is about nikkah?

The fatayat aren?t your mma. You?re seeking to marry an mma, otherwise you'll be asking yourself for permission to do nikkah with her (which makes no sense). and as for the caretakers of mma who wish to marry an mma they can't coerce them to nikkah 2433

What do you understand of the term ?muhsinat? muhsinat and mma are different things.

Salam

san

Peace,

hope you're doing well with your exam

I understand what you mean. It is similar to Sarah's argument. I am not saying that to unguard=to have sex. What I'm saying is that to ungaurd is to literally mean to ungaurd to others not expose but ungaurd which implies beyond exposure right? Now this is where we differ in understanding. Whilst here your understanding appears to be that the ungaurd has to be limited. Thus sex is part of that limitation you place, my argument is from WHERE did you get this limitation? It would be like me saying that you can't have sex with your spouse simply because ungaurd does not equal sex. Yes it does not equal sex but UNLESS restricted by some other verse, sex is within the unguarding of one's private parts. Do you get my line of reasoning? Do you know of a verse in the Quran that says something on the lines of "do not have sex with MMA" because only this kind of thing will effect 235-6 and only this will bring in limitations to what unguarding means. We can't put limitations of our own. Thus we can't automatically assume and limit sex to marriages and then attribute this law to the Quran.

I did not put the limit. I'm just trying to say that with such understanding, there are such and such possibilities. You can have your MMA without sexual relationship, i.e. sex is not necessarily the sole purpose of MMA, IF indeed one has the right. Just like sex is not the sole purpose of a marriage. On the other hand, you are the one who seems to try to isolate the issue of "sex with MMA" (CMIIW). As one of the moderator have suggested about the hikma side of AQ, we need to try our best to link our best understanding of the many relevant AQ verses and to make a whole understanding out of it. For example, reading 2187, which as i understand it, does talk about sex, it says

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your women (nisaa&#039. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you.

note "women", not "wives/spouses/azwaaj". looks like it supports your arguments, right? let's read on.

Reading 43, the same word "women" are related with "nikah". 423-24 explains which of the women one man can marry and which he cannot. 242-3 give strong warnings against fornication/zina. And then goes on with related ethical issues until we come to 2430-31, which links "reducing/holding back sight" (visual) with "protecting private parts" and with a set of recommendations regarding physical "exposure" and "disclosure" and a certain attitude. Then right after those issues, we are presented with 'marry the unmarried among...' in 2432, an issue of "marriage/wedlock". 2433 further suggested for those who aren't able to marry/wed to hold on/abstain. Let's take the middle part of 2433 in detail, because it's very interesting and very crucial for/against your argumentation

wallatheena yabtaghoona al"kitaba" mim ma malakat aymanukum

fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran
wa atoohum min mali Allahi allathee atakum

And those who seek a "contract" from your MMA

then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness
and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you.

What "contract/writing/kitab"?
Even more interesting, however, (someone might/should have already pointed it before) the interaction here is between

CHECK ALL THE TRANSLATIONS, including mine and yours

IF you were to have sexual relationship with your MMA (unmarried), then what boundaries that would limit you from marrying her to "those who seek a contract"? (issue time from last sexual intercourse with you, the protector, to the next intercourse with another man) Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

Does it make any sense with your conception of MMA? To, forgive me, "pass him/her on" to someone else to be contracted/booked/married?

to note, the word "kitab" is also mentioned in 424, please carefully take the context of the whole sura and we get back to the expression "marry/nikah from the women/nisaa'" in sura 4. This is if you want to keep reading AQ as a whole. Otherwise you can always demand the question 'where does it say in AQ that ...'.

Remember the beginning part of 2433

But let them who find not marriage abstain until Allah enriches them from His bounty.

Yes, the sura previously talked about "fornication/zina", "reducing/holding back sight", "protecting private parts", physical "exposure" and "disclosure", and 'marry the unmarried'.

Yes, it talks about abstaining from sexual relationship, if it wasn't clear enough to you.

And as a reminder, you haven't answered these earlier questions from me & other members

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?
how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?
what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?
(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?
what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?
in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

You see, i'm not even asking about what consequences one is going to face by having a sexual relationship with an MMA (or anyone for that matter) out of marriage, but if you think it's going to work, then tell me how exactly it's going to work -- in line with AQ, of course. context our current time.

unknownuser

peace

Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

I think you can devorce them as you are married to them, the Oath you take is/are your marriage vows.

you don't take oaths with women you don't want to be responsible for surely!

do you know of any people where they take oaths of responsibility, honestly, where they don't want to be responsible for them?

peace

san

peace

I think you can devorce them as you are married to them, the Oath you take is/are your marriage vows.

you don't take oaths with women you don't want to be responsible for surely!

do you know of any people where they take oaths of responsibility, honestly, where they don't want to be responsible for them?

peace

you missed the IF (i.e. the condition), please don't take my words out of context. thx.

unknownuser

you missed the IF (i.e. the condition), please don't take my words out of context. thx.

What i mean is , doesn't taking the oath in the sight of God, to take the responsibility -ragarding the needs and requirements of the MMA constitute a marriage- if not how does one marry someone without an oath in the sight of God-for the said responsibilites?

Thanks and peace

san

What i mean is , doesn't taking the oath in the sight of God, to take the responsibility -ragarding the needs and requirements of the MMA constitute a marriage- if not how does one marry someone without an oath in the sight of God-for the said responsibilites?

Thanks and peace

i appreciate your input -- however the whole post/reply was directed specifically to nimnimak_11, and i made conditional sentences to fit his terms and frame of thinking, or at least i tried to. Since you (i assume) and i don't hold the same view as Nima's, then this part is of no relevance to our arguments. That's why i ask you not to bring it out of context

IF you were to have sexual relationship with your MMA (unmarried), then what boundaries that would limit you from marrying her to "those who seek a contract"? (issue time from last sexual intercourse with you, the protector, to the next intercourse with another man) Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

Does it make any sense with your conception of MMA? To, forgive me, "pass him/her on" to someone else to be contracted/booked/married?

Unless you are speaking on behalf of Nima--which i very much doubt--i suggest we wait for his response instead peace

nimnimak_11

But Nima how is lawful?

I disagree with you. Explain it better if you can.

Notice the verse is about nikkah?

The fatayat aren?t your mma. You?re seeking to marry an mma, otherwise you'll be asking yourself for permission to do nikkah with her (which makes no sense). and as for the caretakers of mma who wish to marry an mma they can't coerce them to nikkah 2433

What do you understand of the term ?muhsinat? muhsinat and mma are different things.

Salam

Sarah how is something that is not unlawful anything other then lawful? If it's not unlawful then what is it? I can claim that football is lawful (nothing in the Quran that contradicts this) but I can't claim football in which the rules from regular football are changed to state that at the end of the game, one player from the loosing team must be killed as this contradicts various verses such as the sacredness of life or transgression.

Ok Sarah. I'l put more detail into this as this is an important point which greatly implies that an MMA is some sort of a relationship. With any points you disagree just let me know and i'l see if i can explain better.

I know the verse is about marriage and this fact is in someway related to what i'm arguing and i also acknowledge that muhsinat and MMA are different things. What i'm saying is that to marry muhsinat, first you have to make them your MMA. By the way the word "your" is included in the phrase MMA but i thought i'd put it in english to make it a bit clearer.

Point 1) About Muhsinat It is clear that the Muhsinat are forbidden for marriage unless they become MMA first. I really think the following makes it clear
423-24 lists the forbidden for marriage. Muhsinat is clearly included in that list. 424 And the muhsinat, except those maintained by your oaths.....

But notice the except part. I could have this wrong in terms of arabic but the enligsh is pretty clear and i've just cheked a word by word translation and that also is pretty clear. The word ela is used for "except" and in iranian (farsi) we also use the word ela as except.

In the thread that david_k started jack also pointed this out. So from this, fatayat cannot mean anything like cousin, orphan, slave and so on. However the meaning muhsinat may change this. But from the other verses that talk of muhsinat and the use of the roots Ha-sad-nun

Point 2) About fatayat In the next verse that is still talking about marriage 425, i'm pretty sure it says only marry fatayat that are your MMA. Here's the verse And whoever of you have not the means to marry the believing muhsinat, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women

The above makes it clear that it is not just a fatyat but a fatayat that is your MMA. However an argument against this could be that the fatayat are not part of the forbidden class in 423-24 whilst the muhsinat were. What fatayat are is an important question which i can't answer.

So whether fatayat has to come from MMA is not certain but that musinat do have to come from MMA is. and thus from this i can't think of MMA being anything outside of a relationship. By inside of a relationship i mean bf/gf or fiance and by outside i mean slave, maid or caretaker and so on.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

hope you're doing well with your exam )

Thanks San. Finished the exams and now i've got more free time yay

I did not put the limit. I'm just trying to say that with such understanding, there are such and such possibilities. You can have your MMA without sexual relationship, i.e. sex is not necessarily the sole purpose of MMA,

I know sex is not the necessarily the sole purpose of an MMA. But sex is not necessarily haram in a relationship with an MMA.

IF indeed one has the right. Just like sex is not the sole purpose of a marriage. On the other hand, you are the one who seems to try to isolate the issue of "sex with MMA"

Because everyone has automatically acknowledged that sex with spouse is ok where as with the MMA they have automatically assumed that it is not.

(CMIIW). As one of the moderator have suggested about the hikma side of AQ, we need to try our best to link our best understanding of the many relevant AQ verses and to make a whole understanding out of it. For example, reading 2187, which as i understand it, does talk about sex, it says

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your women (nisaa&#039. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you.

note "women", not "wives/spouses/azwaaj". looks like it supports your arguments, right? let's read on.

Reading 43, the same word "women" are related with "nikah". 423-24 explains which of the women one man can marry and which he cannot. 242-3 give strong warnings against fornication/zina. And then goes on with related ethical issues until we come to 2430-31, which links "reducing/holding back sight" (visual) with "protecting private parts" and with a set of recommendations regarding physical "exposure" and "disclosure" and a certain attitude. Then right after those issues, we are presented with 'marry the unmarried among...' in 2432, an issue of "marriage/wedlock". 2433 further suggested for those who aren't able to marry/wed to hold on/abstain. Let's take the middle part of 2433 in detail, because it's very interesting and very crucial for/against your argumentation

wallatheena yabtaghoona al"kitaba" mim ma malakat aymanukum

fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran
wa atoohum min mali Allahi allathee atakum

And those who seek a "contract" from your MMA

then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness
and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you.

What "contract/writing/kitab"?
Even more interesting, however, (someone might/should have already pointed it before) the interaction here is between

CHECK ALL THE TRANSLATIONS, including mine and yours

IF you were to have sexual relationship with your MMA (unmarried), then what boundaries that would limit you from marrying her to "those who seek a contract"? (issue time from last sexual intercourse with you, the protector, to the next intercourse with another man) Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

Does it make any sense with your conception of MMA? To, forgive me, "pass him/her on" to someone else to be contracted/booked/married?

to note, the word "kitab" is also mentioned in 424, please carefully take the context of the whole sura and we get back to the expression "marry/nikah from the women/nisaa'" in sura 4. This is if you want to keep reading AQ as a whole. Otherwise you can always demand the question 'where does it say in AQ that ...'.

Remember the beginning part of 2433

But let them who find not marriage abstain until Allah enriches them from His bounty.

Yes, the sura previously talked about "fornication/zina", "reducing/holding back sight", "protecting private parts", physical "exposure" and "disclosure", and 'marry the unmarried'.

Yes, it talks about abstaining from sexual relationship, if it wasn't clear enough to you.

The verse you quote are linked to one another but to say that they are implying that sex is exclusive to marriage is too far a reach in my opinion.

You are right in 2187 it says women and not azwaaj thus not making sex exclusive to marriage.
About 43 how is this any evidence or implication that the nisa used in 2187 is exclusive to marriage? Here's 43. And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you maintain by your oaths. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

Firstly MMA are also mentioned there as part of the kind of relationship that can be sought from the women
But secondly even if MMA were not mentioned there, it would not make any difference because it might have meant that the Quran would instruct that in looking after orphans only a marital kind of relationship would work best and thus make having orphans exclusive to marrital relations. This would not make nisa exclusive to marrital relations

About 423-24. I know it's talking about marriage again how would this cause a problem. It does not make the nisa exclusive to marriage. Verses exclusive to marriage are exclusive to marriage and verses exclusive to let's say salat are exclusive to salat. The MMA are part of the class that one can marry. Whilst MMA are part of the class in which one can marry, this does not mean that sex can be had with them only IF you marry them as this 423-25 is not saying this in anyway.

2431 talks of lowering the gaze and gaurding one's private parts. Does one need to do this with respect to their spouse or MMA considering 235-6?
2432 This does not imply that sex is exclusive to marriages. This implies that to be married is better then no to be married. Thus i think it would also clearly imply that a marital relationship is more important and better then a relationship with an MMA. What it does not imply is that sex is exclusive to marriages.

2433 Think about this. Remember my comments on your reference to 2431 in this reply. Now consider this. It says abstain. Let's say sex. so the verse would be something like If you can't marry, then continue to abstain from sex untill god gives you the means.
Now let's say marriage. So the verse would say something like this If you can't marry, then continue to abstain from marriage untill god gives you the means.

Which one makes more sense? Your reference to 2430 serves as something that strengthens the argument of sex being halal with the MMA in my opnion because whilst 2430 says guard the parts, 235-6 says to whom there is no blame to unguard the parts. See the link? To use the Quran as a whole for this issue these things plus the fact that muhsinat must first become MMA before they become permissive to be married to must be taken into account.

The middle part of 2433. Could it mean anything other then that if the MMA seek marriage with you and you find them to be good and ready, then do it. This is a scenario of what to do when one is proposed to in my opnion. Now how is this again implying that sex is exclusive to marriage or not allowed with the MMA? It looks like it fits the puzzle considering muhsinat being haram untill they become MMA.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

And as a reminder, you haven't answered these earlier questions from me & other members

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?
how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?
what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?
(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?
what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?
in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

You see, i'm not even asking about what consequences one is going to face by having a sexual relationship with an MMA (or anyone for that matter) out of marriage, but if you think it's going to work, then tell me how exactly it's going to work -- in line with AQ, of course. context our current time.

From the article most objections were with reference to certain verses of the Quran thus most of my focus was on replying to those. But tonight i will look at the issue of oaths hopefully so those questions are gonna have to wait.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

I forgot to reply to your point on Kitab. Please give me time and i'l post it when i post on the issue of oath.

SarahY

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam )

nimnimak_11

Peace all

I?ll try and keep this short.

So MMA = What your oaths possess

Points on oath

Point 1) Oaths can range in strength but they are still oaths.

2225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Point 2) We are not held accountable for our casual/thoughtless oaths but we are held accountable for our serious oaths by God as can be seen 2225

Point 3) To make amends for failure to uphold our serious oaths 589
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be greateful.

Point 4) Do not use oaths as a means of deceiving 1694
And do not use your oaths as a means of deception between you, that a foot will slip after it has been made firm, and you will taste the evil of turning away from the path of God, and you will have a great retribution.

San my next post will be about the point you made about kitab. I have not forgotten.
Also after that I answer to your point about the usage of kitab with respect to MMA, then i?ll answer those other questions hopefully.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

The root of Kitab

Kaf-Ta-Ba = he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed, drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law), mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ, revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

About 2433. I think the term kitab here means something written like a contract. So this is when the MMA request a written contract from you as this is what makes sense. By written contract I personally think that this is when an MMA seeks to engage or maybe marry you. What the rest of the verse says conveys this also
.....if you find that they are ready/goodness in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
This suggests a progression in a relationship to me. Progression could be engagement or marriage. Do understand this differently? If so can you please provide your understanding.
Also you highlighted those/they and you. Did you mean anything siginificant other then that the MMA are requesting from you?

About the usage of kitab in 424. I can't see how kitab could be translated to anything other than book. So God's book is over us. This is said after clarifying those whom we can marry and those whom we cannot. By "God's book is over you" I understand God's law in the kitab (scripture) is over you.
What else can be inferred from this and how is the kitab mentioned here related to the kitab in 2433?
Thus how is this an argument against my argument?

nimnimak_11

Peace Zubairus, San

San here are my answers to the questions you asked earlier on.

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?

I'm not sure on what you mean by this but i'l try and answer. If i misunderstood your question then let me know.

The oath that binds is the one that is implicitly applied when one starts a relationship. The Quran doesn't specify on how oaths are made but does convery that they can range in strength.

how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?

Depends on the seriousness of the oath. So the stronger a relationship, the stronger the oath.

what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?

Marriage is when two people are sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives with one another. So this oath is meant to be rock solid. Thus the oath in a very serious relationship may be the equivalent of the oath in a marriage. Difference however is that marriage also contains a contract whilst a relationship does not.

(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

If the above does not answer ask and i'll expand on it.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?

The same rights as you have as you are also their MMA. Thus it's something that is between the two.

what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?

If the two are ready to have sex, then the same as in marriage.

in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

The earlier to end the easier it is. I think i mis-explained myself. My fear is not ending a relationship as this is my right as well as whoever i may be with's right. Just like a husband and a wife both have the right to a divorce. However my situation is such that i only intend to marry an Iranian girl. Thus i know for SURE that i won't marry a non-iranian. Thus if I start a relationship with a non-iranian with this in mind, i consider doing wrong. But if I come across an iranian girl who i like then i'l start a relationship.

So to end a relationship, one just ends and parts ways nicely. You could end it aggresively but considering the Quran, reason and heart, the first option is more righteouse.

Let me know what you think.

Zubairus

I think an MMA is someone who you posses by oath. Thus in a relationship, you possess someone by oath.
An oath does not have to be written and it can be implicit in my opinion.

Have i answered your question?

Let me know what you think.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam

Thanks sarah

I'll look at it tomorow and i'll let you know what i think. If it's too long then i might not comment on it tomorow but at some point i'll comment on it after a read. Right now it's 0031 here.

peace