How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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And women other than the identified ones have been made permissible for you so that you sincerely seek them with your wealth in the manner of those who seek women to take them in the protective fold /to make them a pearl of their life/home; and not for seeking them with wealth in the manner of debauch men for sexual lust/merely for flowing out the "water".Does this basic principle leave any roon for anyone to have sex with a woman except enganging her in marriage/Nikah?
Yes
For a moment assume that sex is not bad outside of marriage untill proven to you otherwise Quranically.
Now i will explain
The verse is clear that to approach MARRIAGE with sex PRIMARILY in mind is wrong. Sex isn't wrong. I will emphasise again that sex isn't wrong but to think that marriage is JUST about sex is wrong. As you know marriage is a very serious commitment. Any idiot who approachs a marraige purely for sex that marriage will not last (most likely). Marriage is different to the conept of MMA which i am arguing for.Does this answer your question?
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Salam Nimnimak
one may think having sex with someone even if they agree is contradicting morals. Sex is more like sacred not bad how you're thinking i'm perceiving it.
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Dress code isn?t totally subjective, it states what is necessary.Same with premarital sex.
I disagree.
You have no other tool to use in life. Everything goes through the heart and reason. Individuals are responsible for using these tools given to them as correctly as possible and to the best of their abillity. That means IMPARTIALLITY and openmindedness and the refusal to manipulate your own reason to suite your desire. You will be held accountable for such misuses.
people don't intentionally manipulate their reasoning, well maybe some do but it's still possible to make errors with our logic/reason even though we weren't intending it
Ok so basically your saying that you shouldn't enter a relationship just for sex and that if you do so, theres a chance that you could take your desire as your lord. On what grounds? Two people get in a relationship just so they could fulfill their desire of let's say singing to each other. Have they taken their desire as their lord??
hmm.. maybe what makes you think sex is ok? that you can un-guard your frj in front of MMA but frj does not = sex? so how is that so?
anyway some thoughts
Sex as bad before marriage could be a preconceived notion probably and it is also a western ideology that sex is ok. Even a teacher told us at school once ?try before you buy? I thought that was pretty shallow and bad advice for teenage girls.. though ideologies are everywhere.
Before I did think that relationships were ok or a possibility but I?ve come to think otherwise. The claim seems weak because why is there no indication of a waiting period for the MMA?s after breaking off the relationship??? They wouldn?t need one because well they wouldn?t be engaging in sex what other logic is there?
I could have a Female MMA it doesn?t mean I can have sexual relations with her.
God didn?t actually halalify premarital sex either.
No one is saying sex is bad, almost everything is good and bad depending on the context.
If sex was really ok why aren?t MMA?s given the criteria of a waiting period if the relationship ends? Why is marriage promoted? Why do married women need to wait? What makes MMA relationships free off the hook? To me this holds stronger arguments against premarital (sexual) relationships.
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Salam Sarah
I'm Nima by the wayone may think having sex with someone even if they agree is contradicting morals. Sex is more like sacred not bad how you're thinking i'm perceiving it.
IF they think like that, then two things should happen IMO. Justify why they think that (sex contraditing morals) without bias. Then if they think it's not contradicting morals, they should check to make sure it's not forbidden in AQ then not prohibit it to themselves. but if they think it contradicts morals (after justifying why it contradicts morals in an unbiased manner) then they should prohibit it upon themselves.
So if you do see sex as sacred or see it as contradicting morals and you do this without pre-concieved notions and bias (one possible moral contradiction IMO is that you could unintentionally hurt someone) then God bless you keep away from sex untill you do marry.
people don't intentionally manipulate their reasoning, well maybe some do but it's still possible to make errors with our logic/reason even though we weren't intending it
Of course it is possible to make errors with those tools. We are not God. Same as it is possible to make errors with translations and interpretaions from Quran.
I have come across this argument quiet a few times. Ultimately, you have to use those faculties and they are your only tool to acknowledge the Quran to understand it and so on. This applies to life. You are responsible for doing your best to use them. If you make a mistake you can justify yourself i you did not ignore them. But if you ignored them or misused/manipulate them, you cannot justify yourself.Could you ever in the sight of God argue that though my faculties which you gave me disagreed with it i still prohibited myself something.
NOTE that this is different to something like the swine example. With Swine, it is CLEARLY forbidden in AQ. I hope to justify forbidding swine upon myself in the sight of God by the following argument
With the faculties you gave me, i used them to acknowledge all the verses in AQ to be divine (code 19) though it was as clear as day that eating swine is not wrong (when contrasted with other harmful foods that were not forbidden) it was too clear to me in AQ that it was forbidden thus based on my acknowledgement of AQ i did what i did. Furthermore i was not harming anyone else by doing what i did ( i say this because though lashing (for adultery) is clear in AQ, i would never carry it out for it is 100% against my heart but most importantly i would be harming someone ALOT where as with forbidding swine, i harm no one and it's not that big an issue)
The lashing issue is beside the point and i am aware of arguments in which it is not for infliciting pain based on a certain word in the verse which implies this(can't remember) I use it to show an example of justification.
anyway some thoughts
Sex as bad before marriage could be a preconceived notion probably and it is also a western ideology that sex is ok. Even a teacher told us at school once try before you buy I thought that was pretty shallow and bad advice for teenage girls.. though ideologies are everywhere.
EXACTLY. That's why we have to get to the truth without BIAS!
Before I did think that relationships were ok or a possibility but Ive come to think otherwise. The claim seems weak because why is there no indication of a waiting period for the MMAs after breaking off the relationship??? They wouldnt need one because well they wouldnt be engaging in sex what other logic is there?
See my reply to Mazhar. If it fails to answer your question, ask me again an i'l hopefully provide a more detailed answer if you need.
I could have a Female MMA it doesnt mean I can have sexual relations with her.
I KNOW. Nor does it mean that you can't. Unless stated or Clearly implied otherwise in AQ.
I do not mean to make assumotions please forgive me for saying. But have you read all of my article in detail? I understand that it could not become clear enough in one read but just want to know do you think you gave it sufficient time? I would not be upset or offended if you have not. I just want to know
God didnt actually halalify premarital sex either.
True but God did not haramify it either.
No one is saying sex is bad, almost everything is good and bad depending on the context.
handshakeIf sex was really ok why arent MMAs given the criteria of a waiting period if the relationship ends? Why is marriage promoted? Why do married women need to wait? What makes MMA relationships free off the hook? To me this holds stronger arguments against premarital (sexual) relationships.
Please look at my reply to Mazhar and if you think that it is insufficient, let me know so I have a chance of better explaining.
peace
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The believers are... those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouses... Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that , then they are the transgressors." (235-6)
?Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred, except for just cause, nor commit fornication; and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (but) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy.?
(Al-Furqan, 2568-69).Salam Afridi
235-6. except from their spouses OR mma
2568Zina Adultery. I see it as someone who is married who has sex outsied of this marriage.
peace
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Salam Nima
Lol off course I read what you wrote that?s not to say I don?t have a thick skull but seriously I can see what you are saying I?m just sharing an opposing view.
So if you do see sex as sacred or see it as contradicting morals and you do this without pre-concieved notions and bias (one possible moral contradiction IMO is that you could unintentionally hurt someone) then God bless you keep away from sex untill you do marry.
Lol thanks for the advice, if I get married sure.
Well we?re trying to get to the truth but you?ve already concluded an answer.
You?re reply to Mazhar was
Yes
For a moment assume that sex is not bad outside of marriage untill proven to you otherwise Quranically.
Now i will explain
The verse is clear that to approach MARRIAGE with sex PRIMARILY in mind is wrong. Sex isn't wrong. I will emphasise again that sex isn't wrong but to think that marriage is JUST about sex is wrong. As you know marriage is a very serious commitment. Any idiot who approachs a marraige purely for sex that marriage will not last (most likely). Marriage is different to the conept of MMA which i am arguing for.Does this answer your question?
No one is saying approach marriage with sex but rather marriage allows for that avenue in a halal/permissible approach. Another thought came to me. We are garments of one another (spouses) 2187? Why isn?t that in regards to MMA? This gives a stronger implication that mma isn?t about sex or ok for sex.
The concept of MMA to me isn?t just purely about relationships like dating, premarital sexual stuff. But my impression of your thought is because the frj can be unprotected in their presence then it would mean sex is ok?
If mma?s have no rules in terms of relationships well who would want to get married? why is marriage better? What is the difference with mma and marriage?
Peace
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Salam Sarah
Lol off course I read what you wrote that?s not to say I don?t have a thick skull P but seriously I can see what you are saying I?m just sharing an opposing view.
;D
Well we?re trying to get to the truth but you?ve already concluded an answer.
I have not concluded yet. I am hoping that no one has as that will keep the mind open and impartial. I have come up with an argument. The argument concludes an answer. I cannot conclude untill i hear opposing views and address them. If i fail....then i reject premarital sex.
No one is saying approach marriage with sex but rather marriage allows for that avenue in a halal/permissible approach. Another thought came to me. We are garments of one another (spouses) 2187? Why isn?t that in regards to MMA? This gives a stronger implication that mma isn?t about sex or ok for sex.
The verses that are about marriage are for marriage alone You can't related them to MMAs. You keep doing this )
I'l explain in a seperate post where i hope to also address the topic of chastity as these seem to be where the greatest objections arise from.The concept of MMA to me isn?t just purely about relationships like dating, premarital sexual stuff. But my impression of your thought is because the frj can be unprotected in their presence then it would mean sex is ok?
Yes. But you forget my argument about the subjective restrictions in AQ.
If mma?s have no rules in terms of relationships well who would want to get married? why is marriage better? What is the difference with mma and marriage?
Isn't that answer clear? To start a family. To live with someone for the rest of your life. To show the person you are with or the one you choose how much you love them by proposing to spend the rest of your life with them.
In mma this ranges from the
bottom of the spectrum in which it's just about sex and fun.
The middle of the spectrum which could be about getting to know someone and trying to live them
to the top of the spectrum in which all the above is in place apart from status "married"I know you would argue something like Those in the middle and top of the spectrum. Can't they wait untill their married before they fulfil their selfish sexual desire? Just in case you put up a similar argument My answer would be
Why is it selfish desire? Replace sex with any kind of physical contact and imagine that you thought you can't even kiss or hold hands together untill you are married EVEN THOUGH IT DOES NOT FEEL WRONG BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN TOGETHER FOR SO LONG and EVEN THOUGH it is NOT prohibited in AQ.
Couples who are close enough and feel comfortable enough to have sex should restrain because... It is a selfish desire? says who though?
peace
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Yes
For a moment assume that sex is not bad outside of marriage untill proven to you otherwise Quranically.
Now i will explain
The verse is clear that to approach MARRIAGE with sex PRIMARILY in mind is wrong. Sex isn't wrong. I will emphasise again that sex isn't wrong but to think that marriage is JUST about sex is wrong. As you know marriage is a very serious commitment. Any idiot who approachs a marraige purely for sex that marriage will not last (most likely). Marriage is different to the conept of MMA which i am arguing for.Does this answer your question?
If you had given a little time to know and understand the meanings of individual words of the verse perhaps you might not have said this. The restriction is with regard to all women. Any permissible woman has to be sought in the manner of Mohseneena whose conduct and approach is diametrically opposite to Musafeheena--those who do sex for momentarily release of ........and excitement.
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Salam Nima
The verses that are about marriage are for marriage alone You can't related them to MMAs. You keep doing this
I'l explain in a seperate post where i hope to also address the topic of chastity as these seem to be where the greatest objections arise from.Ok I know they are for marriage alone, that is my point. The openness of relation is open in marriage no such speculation is given for MMAs. maybe a collection of verses in regards to mmas should be sorted to see what is addressed for them?
Isn't that answer clear? To start a family. To live with someone for the rest of your life. To show the person you are with or the one you choose how much you love them by proposing to spend the rest of your life with them.
So mmas are only temporary commitments? Wow this is scarily sounding like muta lol or even misyar.
If you can have sex with mma then children are a possibility. If its just fun what happens to responsibility when a kid arrives?
Lots of people get married before committing into sexual/physical relations it is possible.
its just a desire, its selfish if it proceeds over what is right. Its not bluntly prohibited and its not bluntly permissible. Though as I said in the verses strictly about married couples, why would they have rules and openness explained but not MMA's if sexual relations are allowed? My opinion is the argument for MMAs appears to be weak. the only argument you seem to have is about f-rj.
Couples who are close enough and feel comfortable enough to have sex should restrain because... It is a selfish desire? says who though?
Says me until proven that it's halal.
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Peace all
peaceThis is an article i wrote. My first on a topic in Quran. If you read it, please let me know what you think
The purpose of this article is to argue against the widely accepted belief that the Quran prohibits sex before marriage. I intend to do this by using the Quran to justify a case of pre-marital sex where it is acceptable in the light of the Quran.
Unless you take the root Zay-Nun-Ya or Fa-Ha-Shin to literally mean premarital sex, the prohibition of sex before marriage is not stated in the Quran. There are also no verses in the Quran where sex is made exclusive to marriages. Thus sex is not exclusive to marriages and can be done outside of wedlock. The fact that sex is not explicitly prohibited does not mean that it is ok to have sex with anyone under any circumstance. The Quran places restrictions and limitations which prevent such a scenario. There are two limitations which I will point out
The first limitation I will explain via the following Verses of 235-6
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people. However this presents us with a problem as anyone could be committed to an individual by oath. Thus theoretically if an orphan is committed to you by oath.....then he can have access to your private parts.
This is where the second limitation comes inFa-Ha-Shin which has the possible following meanings
became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication.An example of the usage of Fa-Ha-Shin can be seen in 1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.
If we take lewdness into account, then it becomes clear that showing your private parts to an orphan who is committed to you by oath is forbidden (unless you have a really good and un-lewd reason to do so which is very unlikely) Thus (though highly unlikely) no one can claim that they were showing their private parts to their orphan and then justify themselves with verses such as 235-6. Such an act will go strongly against reason and heart in which their justification becomes invalid just by that alone. Nevertheless for the purposes of this article, it is an act of lewdness indicated by reason and heart and thus prohibited by the Quran. Thus this takes out the possibility of all gross acts such as the example given.
I will now discuss some of the possible objections to my argument.One possible objection to my argument, is the following verse 2433
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
It requests of those who are unable to marry to remain chaste implying that they should not have sex until they have married. I disagree with this translation and understanding for the following reason
If we look at a word by word translation, the word chaste actually isn?t there. What?s actually used is abstain. But his could mean to abstain from something different to sex such as abstaining from unlawful sex and not sex as a whole.
Another possible objection
It may be argued that the permission to expose the private parts to those you are committed to by oath given in the Quran does not include the permission to have sex. This is not the case as in order for something to be prohibited, it needs to be stated in the Quran. If it is not stated, then it is not prohibited and as sex is not prohibited beyond the limits already discussed, then it is permitted. Consider the following If we are to say that the private parts (in the case of those who are committed to an individual by oath) are for exposure only and nothing more, then this becomes problematic. Imagine a surgeon attempting to operate on an individual?s private part. The surgeon can see the private part of the individual as the surgeon is committed to the individual by oath however the surgeon will not be able to go beyond seeing the private part (even though the individual has consented to operating on the private part) and thus be unable to a operate on the individual. This would be the case if we were to accept that the private parts can only be exposed and nothing more can be done to them.Moving on....
The concept of lewdness is subjective. What may appear lewd to an individual may appear normal to another. Consider a one night stand. Some will consider the act as lewd and some will think it acceptable. Topics such as a one night stand are controversial and open to debate. However when the act of sex is done between a couple who are both morally upright and are comfortable with each other and are not rushing one another and it does not go against their reason and heart prior to the act, then I see no controversy in such a case. I doubt that in such a case there is any lewdness. If anyone objects to this, please indicate the lewdness you pick out from this.In conclusion, pre-marital sex is not prohibited in the Quran. There are clear limitations and subjective limitations. Issues such as a one night stand may possibly be justified in the light of the Quran. As outrageous as this claim may appear to some, I truly believe that it may hold some truth.
The end.
Some addiotional points
In a discussion with a friend, when attempting to argue against one night stands, I could not get anywhere as his argument was clearly the more reasonable and stronger. I will present a revised summary of our discussion What could be wrong with two healthy (no disabilities such as down-syndrome or any influence of alcohol) and responsible people agreeing to have sex on one night even though they have just met on the night? I responded by saying that that would make sex meaningless and without passion. But would it necessarily do this? I cannot tell. And even if it does, how could it be wrong when both have agreed to it and it?s not harming anyone else? (please note this was an argument with my friend which I have attempted to summarise. What I have written down isn?t exactly what was said but rather the key points pointed out and discussed. My purpose of this example was to show the importance of reason and how someone like my friend could justify himself in the sight of God)
I could not answer him and considered that he might be right and that my rejection of his view is purely based on my upbringing and not of my reasoning. My heart did object to it at first but I tried to view the act in a different and more positive light in order to be unbiased, and my heart did not object to it anymore. Before i was viewing this act in a negative light and that is why i believe my heart objected to it then. But both scenarios that i attmepted to comprehend can take place in reality. The negative more likely to occure then the positive. I dislike the idea of a one night stand personally.
If I am not mistaken, virginity in the Iranian culture is seen as a good thing and I believe that this is similar amongst Quranists. Ironically virginity in some places and in the sight of some people is seen as a bad thing. With the use of reason and the Quran, hopefully we will get to the truth.
peace
peace,
Pardon me brother if my input has been discussed in these thread I have limited time to read through the whole thread so I decided to just make this timely reply.And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage
to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them
secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And
know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.2235From this verse it clear that even those we propose to marry with serious intention we are to hold righteous talk with if the need arise for us to meet in secret and we advise here not to have sex with her ( i.e. do not consumate the marriage) until after marriage ( i.e.until the book interim is reached).
My understanding here is that pre-marital sex is not allowed even in serious relatioship.
Marriage is the only license with have to have sex with opposite sex, other than sex outside of marriage is fornication, except perhaps you may wish to enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
Kaamil -
Salam Simple
But let me emphasise something from what you have quoted
If the translation is as you say it is, my whole argument would collapse and i would acknoweldge what you say. But i think the word OR is crucialExcept on (to) their spouses or what their rights/oaths owned/possessed , so they truly are not blameworthy/blamed.
peace
Salaams Br,
Check the dictionary and you will see what the or is, this translation is more or less right.
And what is MMA to you?
i have to ask, don't be offended.
If your Mother was devorced and does it with people or sister before marriage or your daughter how would you feel??especialy if any of them accidently becomes pregnant while unmarried, and if they are livivng in a country like Pakistan wow
and you are argueing for it, God allmighty , one shouldn't take their desires to such an extreme never, look at the purity of others close to you.
Thanks Br.
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If you had given a little time to know and understand the meanings of individual words of the verse perhaps you might not have said this. The restriction is with regard to all women. Any permissible woman has to be sought in the manner of Mohseneena whose conduct and approach is diametrically opposite to Musafeheena--those who do sex for momentarily release of ........and excitement.
Peace Mazhar
Can you provide the verse number please? I cannot look at it in detail otherwise. I commented on what i read in your post and from that I said what I said.
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Salaams Br,
Check the dictionary and you will see what the or is, this translation is more or less right.
And what is MMA to you?
i have to ask, don't be offended.
If your Mother was devorced and does it with people or sister before marriage or your daughter how would you feel??especialy if any of them accidently becomes pregnant while unmarried, and if they are livivng in a country like Pakistan wow
and you are argueing for it, God allmighty , one shouldn't take their desires to such an extreme never, look at the purity of others close to you.
Thanks Br.
Salam Bro
I did not understand what you meant in you first sentence. In the translation isn't the word or used?
It's ok to ask. I'm not offended. We need to get to the truth.Bro you automatically assume pre-marital sex as unpure. How can i discuss this issue Quranically or in any other way when your mind appears to be closed on this issue (i apologise if i'm mistaken)
About the question you ask. Most likely i would be annoyed but that does not change anything.
peace
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So mmas are only temporary commitments? Wow this is scarily sounding like muta lol or even misyar.
They can be temporary or long-term.
What's muta or misyar?If you can have sex with mma then children are a possibility. If its just fun what happens to responsibility when a kid arrives?
On the basis of morality, you are obliged to look after the kid and provide support.
So what happens if condoms that work 100% exist. Would it then be ok to have pre-marital sex?its just a desire, its selfish if it proceeds over what is right.
Indeed. My point exactly. If one chooses to have sex without being ready for the possibilitlity of a child wether it's 3% or 100, then they should not on the basis of morality. Its their kid and their responsibility.
Its not bluntly prohibited and its not bluntly permissible. Though as I said in the verses strictly about married couples, why would they have rules and openness explained but not MMA's if sexual relations are allowed? My opinion is the argument for MMAs appears to be weak. the only argument you seem to have is about f-rj.
Because marriage is a different kind of commitment.
My argument rests on if it's not haram then it's halal can you provide an exmaple where this is not the case. Can you think of something that's against heart and reason that's not forbidden in the Quran (a complete book)Says me until proven that it's halal.
Nima says it's halal. What more proof could you possibly want
I'm actually starting to change my mind based on kaamil's post. Not sure tho as i havn't given it all my thought and not looked at it in detail yet. But i will comeback with another article on objections and possibley a change of view. Stay tuned )
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peace,
Pardon me brother if my input has been discussed in these thread I have limited time to read through the whole thread so I decided to just make this timely reply.And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage
to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them
secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And
know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.2235From this verse it clear that even those we propose to marry with serious intention we are to hold righteous talk with if the need arise for us to meet in secret and we advise here not to have sex with her ( i.e. do not consumate the marriage) until after marriage ( i.e.until the book interim is reached).
My understanding here is that pre-marital sex is not allowed even in serious relatioship.
Marriage is the only license with have to have sex with opposite sex, other than sex outside of marriage is fornication, except perhaps you may wish to enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
KaamilThank you for the contribution. I will get back to you on this bro. Let me look into it more
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Peace all
I am currently writing an article on what appear to be the strongest objections to my argument. So far i believe Kaamil's objection to be the best. I have slightly change my view but i need to look into it more.
gotta go. will hopefully finish the article tonight.
peace
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Hi Nima,
the "or" doesn't always mean "or" like in english, sometimes it can means "or rather" check a dictionary.
here are a couple of example for you to consider;
2200
So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of Allah, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more Heart and soul. There are men who say "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.where is the or above?
2182
But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.And here wrong doing overtakes partiality as it covers partiality as well.
Just like "your partners or rather those you have undertaken by way of an oath".
Believe you me religions don't allow such a thing as its detrimental to society.
hypno
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They can be temporary or long-term.
What's muta or misyar?What gives you that idea?
Muta is temporary marriages, shias do it. Misyar is another form of temporary marriage some sunnis do it.So what happens if condoms that work 100% exist. Would it then be ok to have pre-marital sex?
It can?t be 100% because there is always a possibility. Lol no it won?t be ok P having or not having children isn?t the ice breaker.
My argument rests on if it's not haram then it's halal D can you provide an exmaple where this is not the case. Can you think of something that's against heart and reason that's not forbidden in the Quran (a complete book)
Not sure, can you? other than this?
I guess I?ll wait for your thoughts/arguments
Peace
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What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?
A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?
I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.
Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.
But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?
As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.
Do to others how you want them to do to you.
The real question is why won't people get married? Thats the question we should ask since it might tell us about their ultimate intention. From experience, it has to do with the legal framework or perhaps many don't bother. Seperating between the two would only convince a partner that is OK to cheat on any girl as long as she is not my wife or husband. He or she will learn fast it ain't going to make much difference if one of them gets caught. One will call it divorce. The other breaking up. Only difference is a bunch of paper work. That paper work is based on human understanding and does not always reflect morality. Just make the girlfriend also legal. End of story. See how fictitous the difference is.
Many Muslim men go out of their societies and think they can do what they want since many societies have this girlfriend boyfriend thing. They learn quickly it ain't what they thought it was. Cause there ain't no difference. And to prove that here is some professional research
http//paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=51389
The message. A cheater is a cheater. And how he behaves prior to a marriage is how he will probably behave if he gets married. A bunch of paper work won't change anything. A person's prior habits before marriage is THE MOST important indicator of his behavior if he evers signs a bunch of paper work thinking now its different. It ain't.
Also this about cheating in schools
Study Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater
By Debra Viadero on October 30, 2009 934 AM | 4 Comments | No TrackBacks
The next time you find yourself thinking, "kids will be kids," think again. Survey results released yesterday by the Josephson Institute on Ethics suggest that kids who cheat in high school are far more likely than non-cheaters to lie to their spouses, bosses, and employees when they grow up.The results are based on a 2008 survey of nearly 7,000 people in five age groups 17 and under, 18-24, 25-40, 41-50, and over 50. The study found, first of all, that younger generations are far more likely to behave dishonestly than older generations?or at least to admit it to researchers. Among high schoolers, 64% said they had cheated on an exam in 2008, 42% admitted lying to save money, and 30% copped to having stolen something from a store.
The study also found that, regardless of how old they are now, people who cheated in high school were three times more likely to lie to a customer (20% vs. 6%) or inflate an insurance claim (6% vs. 2%) and more than twice as likely to inflate an expense claim (10% vs. 4%) than people who never cheated in high school. The high school cheaters were also twice as likely to lie to or deceive their boss (20% vs. 10%) or lie about their address to get a child into a better school (29% vs. 15%) and one-and-a-half times more likely to lie to spouse or significant other (35% vs. 22%) or cheat on taxes (18% vs. 13%).
If that's not reason enough to boost character education efforts in schools, here's another A growing number of studies are beginning to suggest that some character education programs can improve kids' academic achievement, too.
http//blogs.edweek.org/edweek/inside-school-research/2009/10/study_once_a_cheater_always_a.html
Although this research is too simplistic and could be biased. But it does put some light as why adultery is an ethical and moral issue. But to say thats its so because you signed some paper work and its less so if you didn't sign those paper work is naive. Cheating means you have taken some oath, whether spoken or assumed to be loyal and honest. At least to the best of your ability.
Notice the Quran in marriage emphaises living together and financial obligations. Women who sell theselves cheap are doing so at their own risk. Since men have the financial priveleges in a society and women get the burden of children. Thats what seperates the two. But its a human seperation based on law and orer. Just make the same rule apply to any couple who live together(married or not) and have birth. Women need to make the right decisions and each should carry the burden of risk equally and not always the women should carry the risk. Thats why many societies now force financial obligations on any couple. So what do people now do? They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.
If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.
Thats my take from a moral stand point.
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Bigmo
Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function
We live in a social world.
Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.
How you look at what?
But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?
It?s not necessarily just paper work. I?m not sure exactly what constitute marriage islamically.
Generally speaking a teenager/young adult is going to take a gf relationship less seriously than a marriage relationship, why do you think that is?
Cheating and betrayal has nothing to do with marriage or gf/bf relationships it has to do with ones character.
The issue isn?t cheating, divorce doesn?t just happen because of cheating. The issue is about relational limits not cheating.
They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.
Women don?t lose, you should see how much women win in divorce cases, especially in the muslim community living in the western society. In fact I think it?s quite sad. Women think they can reap off their husbands or ex husbands fortune while they sit on their butts doing nothing. That?s not justice.
If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.
Thats my take from a moral stand point.
The moral issue isn?t cheating, the moral issue is whether sex is ok outside marriage.
so you think an oath should be made in terms of gf/bf relationship? or are you implying the oath is known and doesnt need to be stated?