How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

kaamil

Peace all
peace

This is an article i wrote. My first on a topic in Quran. If you read it, please let me know what you think

The purpose of this article is to argue against the widely accepted belief that the Quran prohibits sex before marriage. I intend to do this by using the Quran to justify a case of pre-marital sex where it is acceptable in the light of the Quran.

Unless you take the root Zay-Nun-Ya or Fa-Ha-Shin to literally mean premarital sex, the prohibition of sex before marriage is not stated in the Quran. There are also no verses in the Quran where sex is made exclusive to marriages. Thus sex is not exclusive to marriages and can be done outside of wedlock. The fact that sex is not explicitly prohibited does not mean that it is ok to have sex with anyone under any circumstance. The Quran places restrictions and limitations which prevent such a scenario. There are two limitations which I will point out

The first limitation I will explain via the following Verses of 235-6

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.

From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people. However this presents us with a problem as anyone could be committed to an individual by oath. Thus theoretically if an orphan is committed to you by oath.....then he can have access to your private parts.
This is where the second limitation comes in

Fa-Ha-Shin which has the possible following meanings
became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication.

An example of the usage of Fa-Ha-Shin can be seen in 1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.

If we take lewdness into account, then it becomes clear that showing your private parts to an orphan who is committed to you by oath is forbidden (unless you have a really good and un-lewd reason to do so which is very unlikely) Thus (though highly unlikely) no one can claim that they were showing their private parts to their orphan and then justify themselves with verses such as 235-6. Such an act will go strongly against reason and heart in which their justification becomes invalid just by that alone. Nevertheless for the purposes of this article, it is an act of lewdness indicated by reason and heart and thus prohibited by the Quran. Thus this takes out the possibility of all gross acts such as the example given.
I will now discuss some of the possible objections to my argument.

One possible objection to my argument, is the following verse 2433

And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.

It requests of those who are unable to marry to remain chaste implying that they should not have sex until they have married. I disagree with this translation and understanding for the following reason

If we look at a word by word translation, the word chaste actually isn?t there. What?s actually used is abstain. But his could mean to abstain from something different to sex such as abstaining from unlawful sex and not sex as a whole.

Another possible objection
It may be argued that the permission to expose the private parts to those you are committed to by oath given in the Quran does not include the permission to have sex. This is not the case as in order for something to be prohibited, it needs to be stated in the Quran. If it is not stated, then it is not prohibited and as sex is not prohibited beyond the limits already discussed, then it is permitted. Consider the following If we are to say that the private parts (in the case of those who are committed to an individual by oath) are for exposure only and nothing more, then this becomes problematic. Imagine a surgeon attempting to operate on an individual?s private part. The surgeon can see the private part of the individual as the surgeon is committed to the individual by oath however the surgeon will not be able to go beyond seeing the private part (even though the individual has consented to operating on the private part) and thus be unable to a operate on the individual. This would be the case if we were to accept that the private parts can only be exposed and nothing more can be done to them.

Moving on....
The concept of lewdness is subjective. What may appear lewd to an individual may appear normal to another. Consider a one night stand. Some will consider the act as lewd and some will think it acceptable. Topics such as a one night stand are controversial and open to debate. However when the act of sex is done between a couple who are both morally upright and are comfortable with each other and are not rushing one another and it does not go against their reason and heart prior to the act, then I see no controversy in such a case. I doubt that in such a case there is any lewdness. If anyone objects to this, please indicate the lewdness you pick out from this.

In conclusion, pre-marital sex is not prohibited in the Quran. There are clear limitations and subjective limitations. Issues such as a one night stand may possibly be justified in the light of the Quran. As outrageous as this claim may appear to some, I truly believe that it may hold some truth.

The end.

Some addiotional points

In a discussion with a friend, when attempting to argue against one night stands, I could not get anywhere as his argument was clearly the more reasonable and stronger. I will present a revised summary of our discussion What could be wrong with two healthy (no disabilities such as down-syndrome or any influence of alcohol) and responsible people agreeing to have sex on one night even though they have just met on the night? I responded by saying that that would make sex meaningless and without passion. But would it necessarily do this? I cannot tell. And even if it does, how could it be wrong when both have agreed to it and it?s not harming anyone else? (please note this was an argument with my friend which I have attempted to summarise. What I have written down isn?t exactly what was said but rather the key points pointed out and discussed. My purpose of this example was to show the importance of reason and how someone like my friend could justify himself in the sight of God)

I could not answer him and considered that he might be right and that my rejection of his view is purely based on my upbringing and not of my reasoning. My heart did object to it at first but I tried to view the act in a different and more positive light in order to be unbiased, and my heart did not object to it anymore. Before i was viewing this act in a negative light and that is why i believe my heart objected to it then. But both scenarios that i attmepted to comprehend can take place in reality. The negative more likely to occure then the positive. I dislike the idea of a one night stand personally.

If I am not mistaken, virginity in the Iranian culture is seen as a good thing and I believe that this is similar amongst Quranists. Ironically virginity in some places and in the sight of some people is seen as a bad thing. With the use of reason and the Quran, hopefully we will get to the truth.

peace

peace,
Pardon me brother if my input has been discussed in these thread I have limited time to read through the whole thread so I decided to just make this timely reply.

And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage
to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them
secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And
know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.2235

From this verse it clear that even those we propose to marry with serious intention we are to hold righteous talk with if the need arise for us to meet in secret and we advise here not to have sex with her ( i.e. do not consumate the marriage) until after marriage ( i.e.until the book interim is reached).

My understanding here is that pre-marital sex is not allowed even in serious relatioship.
Marriage is the only license with have to have sex with opposite sex, other than sex outside of marriage is fornication, except perhaps you may wish to enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
Kaamil

unknownuser

Salam Simple

But let me emphasise something from what you have quoted
If the translation is as you say it is, my whole argument would collapse and i would acknoweldge what you say. But i think the word OR is crucial

Except on (to) their spouses or what their rights/oaths owned/possessed , so they truly are not blameworthy/blamed.

peace

Salaams Br,

Check the dictionary and you will see what the or is, this translation is more or less right.

And what is MMA to you?

i have to ask, don't be offended.

If your Mother was devorced and does it with people or sister before marriage or your daughter how would you feel??especialy if any of them accidently becomes pregnant while unmarried, and if they are livivng in a country like Pakistan wow

and you are argueing for it, God allmighty , one shouldn't take their desires to such an extreme never, look at the purity of others close to you.

Thanks Br.

nimnimak_11

If you had given a little time to know and understand the meanings of individual words of the verse perhaps you might not have said this. The restriction is with regard to all women. Any permissible woman has to be sought in the manner of Mohseneena whose conduct and approach is diametrically opposite to Musafeheena--those who do sex for momentarily release of ........and excitement.

Peace Mazhar

Can you provide the verse number please? I cannot look at it in detail otherwise. I commented on what i read in your post and from that I said what I said.

nimnimak_11

Salaams Br,

Check the dictionary and you will see what the or is, this translation is more or less right.

And what is MMA to you?

i have to ask, don't be offended.

If your Mother was devorced and does it with people or sister before marriage or your daughter how would you feel??especialy if any of them accidently becomes pregnant while unmarried, and if they are livivng in a country like Pakistan wow

and you are argueing for it, God allmighty , one shouldn't take their desires to such an extreme never, look at the purity of others close to you.

Thanks Br.

Salam Bro

I did not understand what you meant in you first sentence. In the translation isn't the word or used?
It's ok to ask. I'm not offended. We need to get to the truth.

Bro you automatically assume pre-marital sex as unpure. How can i discuss this issue Quranically or in any other way when your mind appears to be closed on this issue (i apologise if i'm mistaken)

About the question you ask. Most likely i would be annoyed but that does not change anything.

peace

nimnimak_11

So mmas are only temporary commitments? Wow this is scarily sounding like muta lol or even misyar.

They can be temporary or long-term.
What's muta or misyar?

If you can have sex with mma then children are a possibility. If its just fun what happens to responsibility when a kid arrives?

On the basis of morality, you are obliged to look after the kid and provide support.
So what happens if condoms that work 100% exist. Would it then be ok to have pre-marital sex?

its just a desire, its selfish if it proceeds over what is right.

Indeed. My point exactly. If one chooses to have sex without being ready for the possibilitlity of a child wether it's 3% or 100, then they should not on the basis of morality. Its their kid and their responsibility.

Its not bluntly prohibited and its not bluntly permissible. Though as I said in the verses strictly about married couples, why would they have rules and openness explained but not MMA's if sexual relations are allowed? My opinion is the argument for MMAs appears to be weak. the only argument you seem to have is about f-rj.

Because marriage is a different kind of commitment.
My argument rests on if it's not haram then it's halal can you provide an exmaple where this is not the case. Can you think of something that's against heart and reason that's not forbidden in the Quran (a complete book)

Says me until proven that it's halal.

Nima says it's halal. What more proof could you possibly want

I'm actually starting to change my mind based on kaamil's post. Not sure tho as i havn't given it all my thought and not looked at it in detail yet. But i will comeback with another article on objections and possibley a change of view. Stay tuned )

nimnimak_11

peace,
Pardon me brother if my input has been discussed in these thread I have limited time to read through the whole thread so I decided to just make this timely reply.

And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage
to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them
secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And
know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.2235

From this verse it clear that even those we propose to marry with serious intention we are to hold righteous talk with if the need arise for us to meet in secret and we advise here not to have sex with her ( i.e. do not consumate the marriage) until after marriage ( i.e.until the book interim is reached).

My understanding here is that pre-marital sex is not allowed even in serious relatioship.
Marriage is the only license with have to have sex with opposite sex, other than sex outside of marriage is fornication, except perhaps you may wish to enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
Kaamil

Thank you for the contribution. I will get back to you on this bro. Let me look into it more

nimnimak_11

Peace all

I am currently writing an article on what appear to be the strongest objections to my argument. So far i believe Kaamil's objection to be the best. I have slightly change my view but i need to look into it more.

gotta go. will hopefully finish the article tonight.

peace

unknownuser

Hi Nima,

the "or" doesn't always mean "or" like in english, sometimes it can means "or rather" check a dictionary.

here are a couple of example for you to consider;

2200
So when ye have accomplished your holy rites, celebrate the praises of Allah, as ye used to celebrate the praises of your fathers,- yea, with far more Heart and soul. There are men who say "Our Lord! Give us (Thy bounties) in this world!" but they will have no portion in the Hereafter.

where is the or above?

2182
But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And here wrong doing overtakes partiality as it covers partiality as well.

Just like "your partners or rather those you have undertaken by way of an oath".

Believe you me religions don't allow such a thing as its detrimental to society.

hypno

SarahY

They can be temporary or long-term.
What's muta or misyar?

What gives you that idea?
Muta is temporary marriages, shias do it. Misyar is another form of temporary marriage some sunnis do it.

So what happens if condoms that work 100% exist. Would it then be ok to have pre-marital sex?

It can?t be 100% because there is always a possibility. Lol no it won?t be ok P having or not having children isn?t the ice breaker.

My argument rests on if it's not haram then it's halal D can you provide an exmaple where this is not the case. Can you think of something that's against heart and reason that's not forbidden in the Quran (a complete book)

Not sure, can you? other than this?

I guess I?ll wait for your thoughts/arguments

Peace

Mazhar

Peace Mazhar

Can you provide the verse number please? I cannot look at it in detail otherwise. I commented on what i read in your post and from that I said what I said.

Itwas referred in your reply 14. Pl read the verse there.

Bigmo

What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?

A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?

I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.

Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.

But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?

As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.

Do to others how you want them to do to you.

The real question is why won't people get married? Thats the question we should ask since it might tell us about their ultimate intention. From experience, it has to do with the legal framework or perhaps many don't bother. Seperating between the two would only convince a partner that is OK to cheat on any girl as long as she is not my wife or husband. He or she will learn fast it ain't going to make much difference if one of them gets caught. One will call it divorce. The other breaking up. Only difference is a bunch of paper work. That paper work is based on human understanding and does not always reflect morality. Just make the girlfriend also legal. End of story. See how fictitous the difference is.

Many Muslim men go out of their societies and think they can do what they want since many societies have this girlfriend boyfriend thing. They learn quickly it ain't what they thought it was. Cause there ain't no difference. And to prove that here is some professional research

http//paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=51389

The message. A cheater is a cheater. And how he behaves prior to a marriage is how he will probably behave if he gets married. A bunch of paper work won't change anything. A person's prior habits before marriage is THE MOST important indicator of his behavior if he evers signs a bunch of paper work thinking now its different. It ain't.

Also this about cheating in schools

Study Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater
By Debra Viadero on October 30, 2009 934 AM | 4 Comments | No TrackBacks
The next time you find yourself thinking, "kids will be kids," think again. Survey results released yesterday by the Josephson Institute on Ethics suggest that kids who cheat in high school are far more likely than non-cheaters to lie to their spouses, bosses, and employees when they grow up.

The results are based on a 2008 survey of nearly 7,000 people in five age groups 17 and under, 18-24, 25-40, 41-50, and over 50. The study found, first of all, that younger generations are far more likely to behave dishonestly than older generations?or at least to admit it to researchers. Among high schoolers, 64% said they had cheated on an exam in 2008, 42% admitted lying to save money, and 30% copped to having stolen something from a store.

The study also found that, regardless of how old they are now, people who cheated in high school were three times more likely to lie to a customer (20% vs. 6%) or inflate an insurance claim (6% vs. 2%) and more than twice as likely to inflate an expense claim (10% vs. 4%) than people who never cheated in high school. The high school cheaters were also twice as likely to lie to or deceive their boss (20% vs. 10%) or lie about their address to get a child into a better school (29% vs. 15%) and one-and-a-half times more likely to lie to spouse or significant other (35% vs. 22%) or cheat on taxes (18% vs. 13%).

If that's not reason enough to boost character education efforts in schools, here's another A growing number of studies are beginning to suggest that some character education programs can improve kids' academic achievement, too.

http//blogs.edweek.org/edweek/inside-school-research/2009/10/study_once_a_cheater_always_a.html

Although this research is too simplistic and could be biased. But it does put some light as why adultery is an ethical and moral issue. But to say thats its so because you signed some paper work and its less so if you didn't sign those paper work is naive. Cheating means you have taken some oath, whether spoken or assumed to be loyal and honest. At least to the best of your ability.

Notice the Quran in marriage emphaises living together and financial obligations. Women who sell theselves cheap are doing so at their own risk. Since men have the financial priveleges in a society and women get the burden of children. Thats what seperates the two. But its a human seperation based on law and orer. Just make the same rule apply to any couple who live together(married or not) and have birth. Women need to make the right decisions and each should carry the burden of risk equally and not always the women should carry the risk. Thats why many societies now force financial obligations on any couple. So what do people now do? They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.

If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.

Thats my take from a moral stand point.

SarahY

Bigmo

Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function

We live in a social world.

Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.

How you look at what?

But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?

It?s not necessarily just paper work. I?m not sure exactly what constitute marriage islamically.

Generally speaking a teenager/young adult is going to take a gf relationship less seriously than a marriage relationship, why do you think that is?

Cheating and betrayal has nothing to do with marriage or gf/bf relationships it has to do with ones character.

The issue isn?t cheating, divorce doesn?t just happen because of cheating. The issue is about relational limits not cheating.

They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.

Women don?t lose, you should see how much women win in divorce cases, especially in the muslim community living in the western society. In fact I think it?s quite sad. Women think they can reap off their husbands or ex husbands fortune while they sit on their butts doing nothing. That?s not justice.

If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.

Thats my take from a moral stand point.

The moral issue isn?t cheating, the moral issue is whether sex is ok outside marriage.

so you think an oath should be made in terms of gf/bf relationship? or are you implying the oath is known and doesnt need to be stated?

nimnimak_11

Peace all

I will attempt to address some of the common objections stated so far on this thread in detail and in different parts. Part 1 will focus on chastity.

Here are some verses on chastity which were quoted on this thread

The first example
7029-30 And those who guard their chastity. Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy

Why I reject this as a credible objection First of all what is translated here as chastity is actually private part between the legs. Secondly it clearly says, that the MMA and Azwaaj are an exception to such a protection.

The second example
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Why I reject this There is no chaste in that verse. It is a mistranslation. Verify for yourself by looking at the Arabic in a word by word translation.

The third example which IMO was the best objection and that?s why I included it in my article
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

Ok Yusuf Ali has translated what is actually in Arabic abstain, to chaste. This could easily be abstain from getting married until God gives them means out of his grace. Does this not make more sense? To abstain from something that you don?t have the means for (in this case marriage) and not sex.

Another way in which chastity occurs in translations is from the following root
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
husun n.m. (pl. of husn) 592
hassana vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5914
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 2191, 6612
impf. act. 1248, 2180
impf. pass. 425
pcple. act. 424, 55
pcple. pass. f. 424, 425, 425, 425, 55, 55, 244, 2423
tahassana vb. (5) n.vb. 2433
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222

Some may argue that this means virgin based on the possible meaning of preserved. But as is clear, there are various meanings to this root. I will argue against why it should not mean virgin

Look at 424 particularly this part ?if you are seeking with your money to be independent?
What?s translated here as independent is actually from the root H-s-n. So does that mean that it?s only right to marry provided that we seek to be virgins within our marriage? I think not. Thus clearly we cannot take virgin as a definition.
So on the basis of that refutation so far premrital sex is ok.
Part 2 will focus on why no guidelines have been placed with respect to sex with MMA when Marriage has clear guidelines.

Please note that i am currently very busy as i have an exam on the 18th of jan plus i have other things that i must do before Thursday. Thus if i am slow with the replys, i apologise but i will do my best to keep up.

Anyway stay tuned for part 2

nimnimak_11

Itwas referred in your reply 14. Pl read the verse there.

There were no verse numbers.

peace

nimnimak_11

What gives you that idea?
Muta is temporary marriages, shias do it. Misyar is another form of temporary marriage some sunnis do it.
It cant be 100% because there is always a possibility. Lol no it wont be ok P having or not having children isnt the ice breaker.
Not sure, can you? other than this?

I guess Ill wait for your thoughts/arguments

Peace

I meant in the future if they come up with condoms that work 100% of the time P
Then there won't be an issue with child responsbility. Wait till i right up part 2 of the objection list and then let's continue discussing )

Mazhar

There were no verse numbers.

peace

Arabic text was there. Verse No. is 424

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/004.%20An%20Nisa%2001..htm

includes all women, they are to be sought only in the manner described. Debauch have their own choice and considerations.

unknownuser

I meant in the future if they come up with condoms that work 100% of the time P
Then there won't be an issue with child responsbility. Wait till i right up part 2 of the objection list and then let's continue discussing

with respects we are all human and enjoy sex, but to doing it without getting married, i wouldn't have anything to do with such a person and would always want my kids to do like wise.

sex without marriage yuck its degrading the value of people, especialy women.

but of course some people like Nima can teach their sisters , daughters mother friends , what they think is good for them - indeed a different class altogether.

peace

Bigmo