How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace Noon Waalqalami
al-mu-h-sa-na-t are not prohibited to marry, that would contradict.
55 this day permitted to you...
... and al-mu-h-sa-na-t from the believers (feminine)IMO there is no contradiction. 424 essentially says muhsinat are permitted so long as they are MMA (agreed?) Muhsinat which occurs at 425 says "And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the mushinat female believers", "then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women." Do you believe that the mushinat in 424 is irrelevant to the muhsinat in 425?
424 specifies that mushinat must be MMA for marriage. 425 and 55 occur after this. Thus you one can marry a muhsinat so long as they are MMA (as specified first time in 424)
425 al-mu-h-sa-n-a-t were previously married (divorced, widowed, etc.) who some consider less desirable or beneath them.
So if we don't have the means to marry the previously married women, we should marry the fatayat MMA? 425 recommends the muhsinat. I don't think we can understand it to mean married or widowed. I think independent is more sensible given all the occurences of muhsin within 423-25 ranging from the purpose of marriage to be seeking to be muhsin"if you are seeking with your money to be (mu'inna)..." to the recommended category of women at 425.
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Peace Noon Waalqalami
IMO there is no contradiction. 424 essentially says muhsinat are permitted so long as they are MMA (agreed?) Muhsinat which occurs at 425 says "And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the mushinat female believers", "then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women." Do you believe that the mushinat in 424 is irrelevant to the muhsinat in 425?
424 specifies that mushinat must be MMA for marriage. 425 and 55 occur after this. Thus you one can marry a muhsinat so long as they are MMA (as specified first time in 424)
So if we don't have the means to marry the previously married women, we should marry the fatayat MMA? 425 recommends the muhsinat. I don't think we can understand it to mean married or widowed. I think independent is more sensible given all the occurences of muhsin within 423-25 ranging from the purpose of marriage to be seeking to be muhsin"if you are seeking with your money to be (mu'inna)..." to the recommended category of women at 425.
Peace nimnimak_11,
Where you get this afford business -- stories about cheap slave girls?
1737 and not stroll in the earth exultant indeed you not rip the earth and never reach the mountains height
Can one reach the mountains ?afford? ? does that make any sense?
Most translations are worked backwards; someone has a story to justify being a pimp ? oh yeah that was so and so long ago prostituting what MMA means; you know if you cannot afford then do one of them. Thus all translations look similar to this ?
43 and if you fear that not you will be able to do justice in the orphans so marry what choice to you from al-nisa twos and three and four so if you fear that not you can do justice so one or what possess your right hands (slave girls)
236 only onto their spouses or what possess their right hands (slave girls)
2433 and should refrain the ones who not will they find marriage until enriches them The God from His bounty and the ones who seeking the writing from what possess your right hands (slave girls)
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who possess your right hands (slave girls)
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from what possess your right hands (slave girls) from/any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you spouse?s the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand (slave girls)?
?. We know what We made obligatory on them in their spouses and what possess their right hands (slave girls)
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Peace nimnimak_11,
Where you get this afford business -- stories about cheap slave girls?
1737 and not stroll in the earth exultant indeed you not rip the earth and never reach the mountains height
Can one reach the mountains afford does that make any sense?
Most translations are worked backwards; someone has a story to justify being a pimp oh yeah that was so and so long ago prostituting what MMA means; you know if you cannot afford then do one of them. Thus all translations look similar to this
43 and if you fear that not you will be able to do justice in the orphans so marry what choice to you from al-nisa twos and three and four so if you fear that not you can do justice so one or what possess your right hands (slave girls)
236 only onto their spouses or what possess their right hands (slave girls)
2433 and should refrain the ones who not will they find marriage until enriches them The God from His bounty and the ones who seeking the writing from what possess your right hands (slave girls)
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who possess your right hands (slave girls)
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from what possess your right hands (slave girls) from/any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand (slave girls)
. We know what We made obligatory on them in their spouses and what possess their right hands (slave girls)
Peace Noon
For the record, I think all those translations that understand MMA as slaves look ridiculous.
I think you've misunderstood the point I'm trying to make. You suggested that we should interpret Ma Malekat Aymunkum as
what possess your right hands/means
. I understood MMA as those whom your oaths possess. Thus my understanding of 423-25 was that the independent women were prohibited to us unless our oaths possessed them.However your understanding of MMA would result in the muhsinat women are prohibited except/only whom our right hands/means possess. I am not for this. But your understanding of MMA would render it as this and this would potentially lead to what you suggested as unacceptable
Where you get this afford business -- stories about cheap slave girls? -
I think you've misunderstood the point I'm trying to make. You suggested that we should interpret Ma Malekat Aymunkum as . I understood MMA as those whom your oaths possess. Thus my understanding of 423-25 was that the independent women were prohibited to us unless our oaths possessed them.
How can one make an oath to possess a woman or anyone?
Sounds creepy; explain how -- go on her Facebook wall or to the mall raise your right hand say I posses you?
Explain how your oaths makes any sense especially these verses?
2433 and should refrain the ones who not will they find marriage until enriches them The God from His bounty and the ones who seeking the writing from what possess your oaths?
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who possess your oaths?
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from what possess your oaths from/any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike?
However your understanding of MMA would result in the muhsinat women are prohibited except/only whom our right hands/means possess. I am not for this. But your understanding of MMA would render it as this and this would potentially lead to what you suggested as unacceptable
It was explained earlier that the phrase "what possess your right hands" encompasses ...
what possess their right hands -- that in ones grasp/means/wherewithal which includes those things in their control from mental capacity, resources, financial, etc.
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Peace nimnimak_11,
The group termed maa malakat aymaanukum can certainly be understood as people in bondage, of that there is no doubt, that's simply the Arabic language. However, I haven't yet comprehensively studied the way in which the Qur'an uses this phrase, and as such I cannot pass judgment as to its exclusive Quranic meaning, if it exists at all.
I am curious to know, in your view, under what circumstances is the punishment in 242 executable?
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How can one make an oath to possess a woman or anyone?
Sounds creepy; explain how -- go on her Facebook wall or to the mall raise your right hand say I posses you?
Explain how your oaths makes any sense especially these verses?
2433 and should refrain the ones who not will they find marriage until enriches them The God from His bounty and the ones who seeking the writing from what possess your oaths?
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who possess your oaths?
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from what possess your oaths from/any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike?
It was explained earlier that the phrase "what possess your right hands" encompasses ...
Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.
The concubine may have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. The Hebrew word used in the Levitical rules on sexual relations, which is commonly translated as "wife", is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion it is used to refer a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaid of Jacob's wife.) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved. The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them result in capital punishment for either party, although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship. For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom. However, this instance is as likely dishonoring to David because it involves a form of incest, as David's concubines would have been somewhat like step-mothers to David's children.
Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine. Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In JudaismIn Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword derived from the Greek word, pallakis, Greek , meaning "a mistress staying in house".
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage
Its a marriage based on aoth only. Its known in the Arab world as urfi marriages.
Nikah 'urfi is a kind of Muslim marriage. It is similar to the Nikah ceremony. An 'urfi marriage is a marriage without an official contract. Couples repeat the words, "We got married" and pledge commitment before God. Usually a paper, stating that the two are married, is written and two witnesses sign it. Most Islamic countries do not recognize 'Urfi marriages and no partner can get a 'legal' divorce since the government does not recognize the legality of the marriage in the first place.
In the past, it was common among the widows of soldiers who had huge pensions and they did not want to lose it by officially re-marrying. Now, however, it is mostly among university students and young couples who cannot afford the high cost of marriage.
Undocumented 'Urfi marriages are increasingly popular among Egyptian youth. The high cost of marriage forces many young couples to wait several years before they marry. Conservative Egyptian society forbids sex before marriage, so many young people consider the 'Urfi marriage a solution. 'Urfi marriages are conducted by a Muslim cleric in the presence of two witnesses. However, they are not officially registered and are not legally financially binding on the man. Couples married in this way often meet in secret and avoid the expense of renting an apartment. The 'Urfi marriage can be disastrous for the wife in legal terms. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since 'Urfi marriage is considered illegal. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry, which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.
The new Egyptian law (passed in 2000) recognizes the woman's right to seek divorce from an 'Urfi marriage. However, the law denies her alimony and child support.
There are also controversial, unofficial "'Urfi" marriages, where a couple signs documents declaring themselves married. The couple does not inform their families of the marriage. Many Egyptian clerics are against this type of 'Urfi marriage calling it a cover for pre-marital sex.
An extreme form of 'Urfi marriage is known as zawag al-'urfi to give prostitution an Islamic cover, some women enter into secret marriage contracts with their summer visitors. Known in Egypt as zawag al-'urfi, this contract is made without witnesses and typically ends in divorce by summer's end. Most of Egypt's Islamic scholars condemn this use of zawag al-'urfi
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_'urfi
Its what you possesed in partnership by oath without the dowry or other formalities. This is what ma malakat aymanukum means. Its a very abused form of marriage but still legitimate which is why the Koran discouraged it but recognized its legality. At least in God's eyes.
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How can one make an oath to possess a woman or anyone?
Sounds creepy; explain how -- go on her Facebook wall or to the mall raise your right hand say I posses you?
Peace Noon
Ok, I'l try.
They don't possess the women. Their oaths possess them. Much is dependent on what we understand by what Quran means by "oath". I think oaths in the context of the Quran can be both casual and serious2222 And they ask you about the menstruations? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
2224 And do not make God the subject of your casual oaths. Be pious and righteous and reconcile among the people; and God is Hearer, Knower.
2225 God will not call you to account for your casual oaths, but He will call you to account for what has entered your hearts. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Interestingly causal oaths and the sort of oaths that enter one's hearts are sandwiched in between verses that deal with relations with the nisa. I believe that as one's relationship with their girlfriend develops and progresses, so does the intensity and seriousness of oath/oaths that bind them together.
I don't think raising your right hand is necessary. All that needs to be established is that y is x's girlfriend. How this is established (whether by facebook, txt, face to face etc.) does not matter. So long as x and y acknowledge this relationship between one another then that suffices IMO. Once this is established then there are oaths in place. Once x becomes y's boyfriend and y becomes x's girlfriend, they possess each other via their oaths.
Explain how your oaths makes any sense especially these verses?
2433 IMO open to interpretation. My understanding And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek l-kitba (to document x), then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
IMO x = Marriage.
At 424-25 there were strong implications that marriage is preferable to a mushinat MMA and if not a muhsinat MMA, then a fatayat MMA. Thus in this verses I think it is conveying that if your fiance's or girlfriends seek marriage (or some other documentation) then document it with them if you find good in them or find that they are ready for this.2458 Again highly open to interpretation This was my reply to savage_carrot
I'm trying to decide between two options
Those who have not yet reached puberty and the MMA are said to ask for permission thrice. Something must probably link these MMAs to children. So MMA here could either be nannies/caretakers or children that one is looking after.That is my understanding. In case you go on to ask So you can ungaurd your private parts to nannies or children I must say no, because that is fahisha.
3028 An example is put forth for you from among yourselves are there any from among those who are maintained by your oaths that are partners to you in what provisions We have given you that you become equal therein? Would you fear them as you fear each other? It is such that We clarify the revelations for a people who have sense.
Difficult to interpret what sort of MMA is being addressed here. There are two questions being asked. Not sure what the purpose of the verse is. Might be conveying that the only MMA whom you would be willing to be equal in provisions are essentially those that will come to be your wives or might be directly addressing the wives as MMAs in this case.
It was explained earlier that the phrase "what possess your right hands" encompasses ...
Yes but then you later this was narrowed to
what possess your right hands/means
So I thought that was what you primarily understood MMA to mean. Check your reply 638.So you understand the MMA as
what possess their right hands -- that in ones grasp/means/wherewithal which includes those things in their control from mental capacity, resources, financial, etc.
and you also said that your understand "illa" as "only". That means then that we can't marry the muhsinat that are within our grasp/means/wherewithal...
If you understand illa as except, then that means that we can't marry the muhsina unless they are within our graspt/means/wherewithal... I don't think this works. So long as someone is within our grasp/means/wherewithal they are MMA? IMO oaths makes more sense.Peace
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Peace nimnimak_11,
The group termed maa malakat aymaanukum can certainly be understood as people in bondage, of that there is no doubt, that's simply the Arabic language. However, I haven't yet comprehensively studied the way in which the Qur'an uses this phrase, and as such I cannot pass judgment as to its exclusive Quranic meaning, if it exists at all.
I am curious to know, in your view, under what circumstances is the punishment in 242 executable?
Peace uq
My understanding is that the punishment applies when you have either and adulterer or an adulteress and this has been witnessed by 4 or more. Thus if some husband cheats on her wife, she gets lashed. Similarly if some wife cheats on her husband, the she gets lashed. To commit adultery one has to be in a marriage. Thus if x cheats on their spouse with an unmarried individual, then the unmarried individual does not get lashed since they did not commit zina since they were not married. However the unmarried individual may be accused of fahisha if it can be shown that he was aware that he was engaging a married woman. But my current understanding is that one cannot be punished for zina if they are not married. Part of my reason for this is that the individual who married made a documented life-long commitment. One of the most intense, if not the most intense commitment one can ever make. Thus to cheat after accepting a marriage proposal or proposing the marriage, is a huge injustice on the spouse.
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Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.
...Its what you possesed in partnership by oath without the dowry or other formalities. This is what ma malakat aymanukum means. Its a very abused form of marriage but still legitimate which is why the Koran discouraged it but recognized its legality. At least in God's eyes.
Hosea 12 ...said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife from whore/prostitute (zenunim) and children from whore; for the land commits flagrant whoredom..."
Peace Bigmo -- is this bible school; insert slave girl/whore every time you see what posses your/their right hands?
Ok, I'l try.
They don't possess the women. Their oaths possess them. Much is dependent on what we understand by what Quran means by "oath". I think oaths in the context of the Quran can be both casual and serious2222 And they ask you about the menstruations? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
2224 And do not make God the subject of your casual oaths. Be pious and righteous and reconcile among the people; and God is Hearer, Knower.
2225 God will not call you to account for your casual oaths, but He will call you to account for what has entered your hearts. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Interestingly causal oaths and the sort of oaths that enter one's hearts are sandwiched in between verses that deal with relations with the nisa. I believe that as one's relationship with their girlfriend develops and progresses, so does the intensity and seriousness of oath/oaths that bind them together.
I don't think raising your right hand is necessary. All that needs to be established is that y is x's girlfriend. How this is established (whether by facebook, txt, face to face etc.) does not matter. So long as x and y acknowledge this relationship between one another then that suffices IMO. Once this is established then there are oaths in place. Once x becomes y's boyfriend and y becomes x's girlfriend, they possess each other via their oaths.
2433 IMO open to interpretation. My understanding And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek l-kitba (to document x), then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.IMO x = Marriage.
At 424-25 there were strong implications that marriage is preferable to a mushinat MMA and if not a muhsinat MMA, then a fatayat MMA. Thus in this verses I think it is conveying that if your fiance's or girlfriends seek marriage (or some other documentation) then document it with them if you find good in them or find that they are ready for this.2458 Again highly open to interpretation This was my reply to savage_carrot
3028 An example is put forth for you from among yourselves are there any from among those who are maintained by your oaths that are partners to you in what provisions We have given you that you become equal therein? Would you fear them as you fear each other? It is such that We clarify the revelations for a people who have sense.Difficult to interpret what sort of MMA is being addressed here. There are two questions being asked. Not sure what the purpose of the verse is. Might be conveying that the only MMA whom you would be willing to be equal in provisions are essentially those that will come to be your wives or might be directly addressing the wives as MMAs in this case.
Yes but then you later this was narrowed to So I thought that was what you primarily understood MMA to mean. Check your reply 638.
Peace nimnimak,
That's horrible translation (as most are); one cannot make out which word is translated as what and verses are about marriage and divorce addressed to married couples not girlfriends -- read in context...
2221 and not marry the idolateress until believing and a handmaiden believing better from a polytheist (feminine) and if you like her and not marry the polytheists until they believe and to servant believing better from a polytheist man and if you liked him those they invite to the fire and The God invites to the garden and the forgiveness by His permission and He makes clear His verses/signs to the mankind the people remember/take heed
2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon al-nisa/the women in the menstruation and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselves
2223 nisaukum/your women a tillage to you so bring your tilt how you like and send forth for yourselves and fear The God and know that you meet Him and give good news the believers
2224 and not set up The God liable to your right hands/means that you be kind and piety and make peace between the mankind and The God Hearing Knowing
2225 not will call you The God in the idle talk in your right hands/means (boasting; blah blah blah) and nonetheless will call you in what earned your hearts and The God Forgiving Forbearing
2226 to those who forswear from nisahim/women theirs waiting four ashr cycles (prefix alif denotes plural) so if they return so indeed The God Forgiving Merciful
2227 and if determine the divorce so indeed The God Hearing KnowingSo you understand the MMA as and you also said that your understand "illa" as "only". That means then that we can't marry the muhsinat that are within our grasp/means/wherewithal...
If you understand illa as except, then that means that we can't marry the muhsina unless they are within our graspt/means/wherewithal... I don't think this works. So long as someone is within our grasp/means/wherewithal they are MMA? IMO oaths makes more sense.Read carefully ...
43 ... so marry what choice to you from the women twos and three and four so if you fear that not you can do justice so one or what possess your right hands/means...
423 prohibited onto you ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful 424 and al-mu-h-sa-na-t from the women only what possess your right hands/meansmeans
noun (plural)/mnz/
means, plural- An action or system by which a result is brought about; a method
- these pledges are a means to avoid prosecution
- resolving disputes by peaceful means
- Money; financial resources
- a woman of modest but independent means
- prospective students without the means to attend Cornell
- Resources; capability
- every country in the world has the means to make ethanol
- Wealth
- a man of means
Whenever your/their hands are mentioned is usually figurative speech; another example...
538 and the male thief and the female thief so cut-off aydiyahum for their hands
(trailing alif which is the only usage their hands in Qur'an denotes to/for)Therefore their punishment is to cut-off for/to their hands/means to perpetrate crime.
Not cut-off little girl's hand for stealing an egg as done by ignorant in land of godless.
Peace
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Peace Noon
insert slave girl/whore every time you see what posses your/their right hands?
No it's more like insert fiance or girlfriend when verses imply this in relation to MMA. Examples include 424-25
one cannot make out which word is translated as what and verses are about marriage and divorce addressed to married couples not girlfriends -- read in context...
I think at points it is in reference to relationships with women in general and at other times, it is in reference to married relations. My reasons
2221 says not to marry an adulterer or polytheist
2222 Shifts the topic to mensturations (this need not be in relation to marriage, if you think yes please explain why)
2223 refers to nisa in general not zawj and no other implication of it being only in reference to zawj (unless you argue that 2221 links to this).
2224-225 makes a distinction between casual and serious oaths...after mentioning serious oaths, 2226 starts to evidently talk about marriage. From there on it's obvious that all verses are in reference to guidelines with regards to marriage. Prior to these oath verses however, it is not so clear.Read carefully ...
I have. I recommend you do the same. Everyone must do this.
Could you summarise what you understand of 424-25?
By this I mean like in your own words.
Here is mine Muhsinat are prohibited unless they are MMA. If we can't marry the muhsinat then we marry the fatayat that are MMA. Fatayat = dependent
muhsinat = independent
MMA (in these verses) = Fiance or girlfriend.Whenever your/their hands are mentioned is usually figurative speech; another example...
538 and the male thief and the female thief so cut-off aydiyahum for their hands
(trailing alif which is the only usage their hands in Qur'an denotes to/for)I agree to the figurative use of you/their hands. However sometimes the word aymunkum must mean oaths Example 2224-225. Could li-aymnikum be translated as hands in 2224-225? It would make no sense to say God will not call you to account for your casual hands...
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Peace nimnimak,
No it's more like insert fiance or girlfriend when verses imply this in relation to MMA.
Explain girlfriends?
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who -- your girlfriends?
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from girlfriends any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike?
I have. I recommend you do the same. Everyone must do this.
Could you summarise what you understand of 424-25?
By this I mean like in your own words.423 prohibited onto you ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful 424 and al-mu-h-sa-na-t from the women only what possess your right hands/means425 and from not is able from you awlan height that marry al-mu--a-n-a-t the previously married the believers (feminine) so from what possess your right hands/means from fataytikumu your maidens/never married the believers and The God Knows in your faith some of you from some/others so marry them by permission their family and give them their rewards
423-24 Prohibited is...
marrying/gathering between sisters only what passed "and"
marrying/gathering between al-mu-h-sa-na-t from the women only to your means; mental, physical, financial, etc.425 If one does not have the height/stature to marry previously married woman i.e. divorced, widowed, less desirable, too old, think them as used goods; keep in mind not all women are lookers as portrayed today on television especially in 6th century without indoor plumping so marry to your means previously never married.
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Peace Noon
Explain girlfriends?
2458 O you the ones who believe let ask your permission the ones who -- your girlfriends?
3028 shows to you example from yourselves shall to you from girlfriends any partners in what We have provided you so you in it alike?
The phrase those whom your oaths possess encompasses many things ranging from doctors, servants, nurses caretakers to fiances (that is my understanding).
In the case of 2458 I do not think that it is in reference to girlfriends. 3028 is more controversial. I have replied to you on both these verses before. Check post 646.I do not think that we can take the MMA as just one sort of class because the depth and breadth of oaths that one can have ranges greatly.
423-24 Prohibited is...
marrying/gathering between sisters only what passed "and"
marrying/gathering between al-mu-h-sa-na-t from the women only to your means; mental, physical, financial, etc.425 If one does not have the height/stature to marry previously married woman i.e. divorced, widowed, less desirable, too old, think them as used goods; keep in mind not all women are lookers as portrayed today on television especially in 6th century without indoor plumping so marry to your means previously never married.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that the recommended women for marriage are those who have been previously married and that when we can't marry these previously married women, we should marry those who have never been married? Isn't dependent/independent a better understanding of the muhsinat and the fatayat as oppossed to Previously married/never married?
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Hosea 12 ...said to Hosea, "Go, take to yourself a wife from whore/prostitute (zenunim) and children from whore; for the land commits flagrant whoredom..."
Peace Bigmo -- is this bible school; insert slave girl/whore every time you see what posses your/their right hands?
What does this has to do with MMA?
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Salam nimnimak
I have a question
Have you taken into consideration that "whom your right hand possess" or "maintained by your oaths" can mean a woman you have claimed ownership over? We must not forget that eventhough the Quran is timeless it was written using phrases and words common in 600AD.
The Romans had a tradition to put a ring on a woman's finger as a sign for her and others that she belonged to him. In other words, an engagement was seen as a claim and the woman as property. This tradition was adopted in judaism and christianity (although the christian wedding ring came after the Quran). Over the years the symbol no longer represents "property", only committment.
Maybe I am completely wrong, have not thought about this subject before....but you are obviously well-read so I thought asking cannot harm anyone
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Forgive the repetition, but this argument truly does loiter.
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Adultery is a consequential act which is purely incidental to the Arabic definition of zinaa, that is to say, zinaa can be performed by married and unmarried people.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
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peace nimnimak_11,
In light of the following information, you may wish to publicly correct your view
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603879.msg303547;topicseen#msg303547
Thanks.
Peace Wakas
Thank you for the info. I would like to discuss it first and I am happy for this discussion to take place either on this thread or in the other. I'l start with this thread since you've pointed this out to me here.
Here is what you were referring to
The female zani and the male zani, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
The male zani will not marry* except a female zani or a polytheist woman. The female zani not will marry* her except a male zani or a polytheist man. And is forbidden that upon the believers.*imperfect verb, meaning an incompleted action, ongoing, future.
And what you understood from this
It also proves 100% beyond doubt that like can only marry like when it comes to doers of zani and they are equated with a polytheist, and they are forbidden for believers, thus proving to do zani is hugely negative and is regarded as falling outside the realm of being a believer.
Ok I am of the same belief regarding this.
This proves 100% beyond doubt that zani can refer to activity out with marriage, i.e. fornication.
This is where I would disagree.
Take the word zani to mean adultry. Now put it in 242
Is there any solid indication that 242 refers to anything beyond adultery? If I understand you correctly, you have taken the word marry as the key evidence for it to do so. Why? does the usage of this word guarantee that the those committing zani were in fact never married?
Once one commits adultery (engage in sex outside of their marriage), does this mean that they can no longer marry?
My current understanding from what 242 is conveying is this Once one becomes an adulterer/adulteress they can still marry but their marriage options becomes limited.I may not be fully understanding your POV. In which case please clarify.
Thank you -
Peace uq and Emile
I've been travelling to London today and will be really preoccupied in London till Friday. The internet where i'm staying at is very bad at the moment. Sometimes it goes off. It loads some pages ok, others it just doesn't load. Really unreliable and bad for replying since corpus and others sites are laggy and difficult to access including the forums and threads. Thus uq and Emile. I will try to reply but if I don't do so by Friday, it's because i'm away from home and with not so good internet.
I'l try tomorow if I find time and the internet is working reasonably.
Peace
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peace nima,
If I understand you correctly, you have taken the word marry as the key evidence for it to do so. Why?
Simple. The verb is imperfect, meaning if/when in future you marry you can only do XYZ. It does not make an exception if one is married or not, it applies to all situations.
You have made an exception without any evidence. If you are happy making exceptions to Quran's guidance without evidence other than your own opinion, fine. Each to their own.
