How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 080407 AM
Quotes are self explanatory.Quote
Thereby, you the independent Men with insufficient resources take them into Wed-fold with the prior permission of their Guardians-House Masters, with whom she is the maid servant.
And pay them their Wed-gifts and committed obligations in the well known manner as is paid to a women taken in the protective fold of Matrimonial Bond making her pearl of life-household opposite the style and manner of payment to debauch-professional women who act for the occasional "outflow of water/satisfying sexual lust". And nor in the manner of payment as is made to such women who maintain secret intimate relationship acting as keeps-concubine.
And translations are sometimes poor with words inserted to force the interpretation one wants to draw as is evident in your interpretation above (highlighted in bold)Let's marry maid servants if we can't marry the guarded women...I am not sure this can be verified by one's reason.
This comment is because of not differentiating between English and Arabic language. In English "you" is a pronoun for the addressee. "You" alone in the translation will include every reader while he is not the addressee. In Arabic a Pronoun identifies and specifies the Person who is being addressed. While translating Arabic the pronouns must be specified in the target language.
House Maids are the subject of discourse. "Ahl" needs to be explained in ful being part of the Possessive Phrase, there is no isertion.
Anyway, you are at your own to translate it whatever way you like. No further comment. -
I think we'l have to agree to disagree with regards to Ma Malekat AYmunkum. I cannot see them as being slaves or servants when it is suggested that we only marry the muhsinat if they are MMA 424 and given that IMO slavery is immoral, it cannot be advocated by the Quran or recommended as marriage material. Also we have a different set of instructions regarding slaves and a different term with regards to slaves elsewhere in the Quran where emphasis is on freeing them.
Peace
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I think we'l have to agree to disagree with regards to Ma Malekat AYmunkum. I cannot see them as being slaves or servants when it is suggested that we only marry the muhsinat if they are MMA 424 and given that IMO slavery is immoral, it cannot be advocated by the Quran or recommended as marriage material. Also we have a different set of instructions regarding slaves and a different term with regards to slaves elsewhere in the Quran where emphasis is on freeing them.
Peace
Just my words bravo
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Wow, 97 pages. Must be a lot of identity invested in the opinions of those who have posted in this thread. (sorry for this useless and potentially agitating post of mine,.. couldn't help myself & )
There was a lot of discussion in this thread since it started 2 years ago. Sometime nice and productive, at other times hateful and unproductive.
I'l do a summary eventually of what's gone on to the best of my ability. I won't just leave it like this. A summary at the end of a 90 page thread seems like a good move.
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There was a lot of discussion in this thread since it started 2 years ago. Sometime nice and productive, at other times hateful and unproductive.
I'l do a summary eventually of what's gone on to the best of my ability. I won't just leave it like this. A summary at the end of a 90 page thread seems like a good move.
What good is that? Plus just because you started the thread it does not mean you have a stake at how it ends. Do not take discussions like this personal. We are all here to learn. No conclusion has been reached and the summary will only outline that. Relying on the verses of the Quran alone will not settle the issue of MMA. This is what this thread has taught us.
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What good is that?
I think somewhere at around page 50 or 60 of the thread, a second round of discussion started and there were some new points raised and discussed. A summary is useful. It's more productive than to go through almost 100 pages of discussion.
Plus just because you started the thread it does not mean you have a stake at how it ends.
I doubt anyone else is willing to sum up the discussion and given the benefit of a summary, I've decided to do one when I can find time. It's not a summary out of personal vendetta. Leaving the thread in this state, without updating the summary and mentioning new points raised, seems bad IMO.
No conclusion has been reached and the summary will only outline that.
Some conclusions have been reached even though an overall conclusion hasn't been reached. Summarising what has been discussed doesn't need to have a definite conclusion. So long as all points raised have been mentioned.
Relying on the verses of the Quran alone will not settle the issue of MMA. This is what this thread has taught us.
That might be the case. But right now I think that the issue of MMA can be settled with the scripture alone.
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Peace,
As promised...
Taaj al-?Aroos Entry for (Z-N-Y)
--Start--
, aortic , infinitive nouns and , He fornicated. The same applies to a woman. Al-Lihyaani said ?The shortened is the dialect of the people of Hejaz, whereas the extended is the dialect of Banoo Tameem.? Al-Manaawi said ? is linguistically ascending upon a thing. And is legally merging the glans of the penis into an unlawful female pudendum, void of dubiousness, and being desired.?
Ar-Raaghib said ? is the laying down of a woman without a legal contract.? It can be shortened In as-Sihaah the shortened belongs to the people of Hejaz. He (exalted!) says ?Do not go near fornication.? (1732) And the extended belongs to the people of Najd. Said al-Firazdaq
O, Father of Haadhir! Whoever fornicates, his fornication will be known,
And whoever drinks the stout , will become intoxicated.Ibn Seedah rehearsed
As for fornication, I am not one to approach it,
Yet wealth is between me, and between wine, two halves.is , plural , as and .
, infinitive nouns and , having the meaning . Based on this, some have said that the extended is but the verbal root of . In as-Sihaah , infinitive nouns of , The woman fornicates, or prostitutes herself.
, He accused so-and-so of fornication. It occurs as such in the copies. As for the sound , He accused so-and-so of fornication. He said ?This is not heard except in the hadith of the daughter of al-Khass. It was said to her ?What caused you to be accused of fornication?? She replied ?The closeness of the pillow, and the length of the night.??
and , although the former is nearer to the chastity of speech, as accords to the saying of al-Azhari, A son of fornication. Al-Farraa? said in The Book of Sources ? is to delinquency, and fornication, and not of true birth.? All of which are spelt with a fathah .
Al-Kisaa?i said ? and can be with a kasrah , as for , then this is with a fathah, not else.
, with kasrah , A tribe of the Arabs as are termed Banoo Zinyah. They are the progeny of al-Haarith bin Maalik in the branch of Khuzaymah. The relative is .
, is also, The last of your children, as . And is also, The last of a woman?s children. It has been said that the above-mentioned tribe were named upon this meaning for they were their father?s last-born.
In the hadith ? came to the prophet, may God bless him and give him peace, then he said ?Who are you??, they said ?We are Banoo az-Zinyah .? said ?No, rather, you are Banoo ar-Rishdah .?? Thus, he repelled from them what suggested by the word .
, Three small mountains in al-Yamaamah, Nasr.
Of that which has been amended is
, He fornicated. From this we have the saying of al-A?shaa
Either marriage, or either I fornicate.
Some have understood as standing for .
, He accused him of fornication. In as-Sihaah ?He called him ?O, fornicator!??
, He constricted, constrained, hampered or fettered his state or his affairs for him. The author has mentioned this under and that is where it will be mentioned.
Proverbially, ?Neither is her chastity, chastity, nor is her fornication, fornication.? This is said to one who abstains from doing good, then does good in excess; or, one who abstains from doing evil, then does evil in excess, and cannot maintain the performance of either.
, shortened , is dualised by the conversion of the ?alif into a yaa? , thus it is said , the relative of which is of the same word albeit by the reversion of the yaa? to a waaw, thus it is said . This is because they found it laborious to pronounce three successive yaa?s. Hence the saying of the jurisprudents , He alleged against him two acts of fornication; it being the dual of shortened .
, with a fathah , A single act of fornication. Such does it occur in al-Misbaah.
, A female monkey, tashdeed . Transmitted by al-Jawhari.
, the relative extended .
--End--
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Comments
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For those proficient in Arabic and who would like to read clearly the Arabic text in the excerpt above, I recommend increasing your browser's zoom magnification to magnify the Arabic letters and diacritical marks.
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Entries for the root of Z-N-Y from the works of Ibn Manzoor and Az-Zamakhshari will soon follow, only if readers would care for such an endeavour.
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As can be seen from the above post, there is not a single mention of the agent's marital status. Neither from the definitions nor from the cited poetic verses. All discussion regarding zinaa above, relates specifically to the act itself, irrespective of the marital status of the agent.
Brothers and sisters, zinaa can only mean fornication.
Whoever claims otherwise is not using Arabic to understand the Arabic Quran; the implications of such a position will be left for the reader's own valuation and inference.
Zinaa can only mean fornication.
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Peace,
As promised...
Taaj al-?Aroos Entry for (Z-N-Y)
--Start--
, aortic , infinitive nouns and , He fornicated. The same applies to a woman. Al-Lihyaani said ?The shortened is the dialect of the people of Hejaz, whereas the extended is the dialect of Banoo Tameem.? Al-Manaawi said ? is linguistically ascending upon a thing. And is legally merging the glans of the penis into an unlawful female pudendum, void of dubiousness, and being desired.?
Ar-Raaghib said ? is the laying down of a woman without a legal contract.? It can be shortened In as-Sihaah the shortened belongs to the people of Hejaz. He (exalted!) says ?Do not go near fornication.? (1732) And the extended belongs to the people of Najd. Said al-Firazdaq
O, Father of Haadhir! Whoever fornicates, his fornication will be known,
And whoever drinks the stout , will become intoxicated.Ibn Seedah rehearsed
As for fornication, I am not one to approach it,
Yet wealth is between me, and between wine, two halves.is , plural , as and .
, infinitive nouns and , having the meaning . Based on this, some have said that the extended is but the verbal root of . In as-Sihaah , infinitive nouns of , The woman fornicates, or prostitutes herself.
, He accused so-and-so of fornication. It occurs as such in the copies. As for the sound , He accused so-and-so of fornication. He said ?This is not heard except in the hadith of the daughter of al-Khass. It was said to her ?What caused you to be accused of fornication?? She replied ?The closeness of the pillow, and the length of the night.??
and , although the former is nearer to the chastity of speech, as accords to the saying of al-Azhari, A son of fornication. Al-Farraa? said in The Book of Sources ? is to delinquency, and fornication, and not of true birth.? All of which are spelt with a fathah .
Al-Kisaa?i said ? and can be with a kasrah , as for , then this is with a fathah, not else.
, with kasrah , A tribe of the Arabs as are termed Banoo Zinyah. They are the progeny of al-Haarith bin Maalik in the branch of Khuzaymah. The relative is .
, is also, The last of your children, as . And is also, The last of a woman?s children. It has been said that the above-mentioned tribe were named upon this meaning for they were their father?s last-born.
In the hadith ? came to the prophet, may God bless him and give him peace, then he said ?Who are you??, they said ?We are Banoo az-Zinyah .? said ?No, rather, you are Banoo ar-Rishdah .?? Thus, he repelled from them what suggested by the word .
, Three small mountains in al-Yamaamah, Nasr.
Of that which has been amended is
, He fornicated. From this we have the saying of al-A?shaa
Either marriage, or either I fornicate.
Some have understood as standing for .
, He accused him of fornication. In as-Sihaah ?He called him ?O, fornicator!??
, He constricted, constrained, hampered or fettered his state or his affairs for him. The author has mentioned this under and that is where it will be mentioned.
Proverbially, ?Neither is her chastity, chastity, nor is her fornication, fornication.? This is said to one who abstains from doing good, then does good in excess; or, one who abstains from doing evil, then does evil in excess, and cannot maintain the performance of either.
, shortened , is dualised by the conversion of the ?alif into a yaa? , thus it is said , the relative of which is of the same word albeit by the reversion of the yaa? to a waaw, thus it is said . This is because they found it laborious to pronounce three successive yaa?s. Hence the saying of the jurisprudents , He alleged against him two acts of fornication; it being the dual of shortened .
, with a fathah , A single act of fornication. Such does it occur in al-Misbaah.
, A female monkey, tashdeed . Transmitted by al-Jawhari.
, the relative extended .
--End--
Peace uq
Thanks for the effort.
Some objections to the following
As can be seen from the above post, there is not a single mention of the agent's marital status. Neither from the definitions nor from the cited poetic verses. All discussion regarding zinaa above, relates specifically to the act itself, irrespective of the marital status of the agent.
Brothers and sisters, zinaa can only mean fornication.
From your post, to me it appears the most detailed description of the word is the following
Al-Manaawi said ? is linguistically ascending upon a thing. And is legally merging the glans of the penis into an unlawful female pudendum, void of dubiousness, and being desired.?
Ar-Raaghib said ? is the laying down of a woman without a legal contract.?
From this can it and should it not be concluded that zina means illegal sexual penetration?
Also what is meant by the following passage? "void of dubiousness"
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Peace nimnimak_11,
From this can it and should it not be concluded that zina means illegal sexual penetration?
Yes, unqualified.
Also what is meant by the following passage? "void of dubiousness"
That is to say, the man didn't merely lie on her, or lie next to her, but penetration actually took place.
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Peace nimnimak_11,
Yes, unqualified.
That is to say, the man didn't merely lie on her, or lie next to her, but penetration actually took place.
Peace uq
That is sort of my point. There are clear distinctions in sexual activity. There is sex that can lead to pregnancies, and there is sex that can never lead to pregnancies. 2431 says if you can't marry, abstain (without making explicit from what) and 2237 uses the word tammasuhunna.
No one as far as I know has tried to determine what exactly abstain and tamasuhhana are referring to here and why they are referring to what they are referring to. There is an automatic assumption that abstain is in relation to sex and tammasuhuuna is also in relation to sex. But this is problematic as this does not rule out out of wed-lock pregnancies.
The touch that leads to a pregnancy need not be sexual. It might be clinical or easily brought about without actually having sex together. Thus a couple can have their own child without having sex and without getting married. Thus what tammasuhunna and abstain are referring to cannot be sex, but rather pregnancy. If they were about sex, then pregnancy before marriage would be fine but if it they were about pregnancy then sex before marriage would be fine (provided there are no other restrictions)
Given the distinction between the possibility of getting pregnant and having sex with no possibility of getting pregnant, I think it must be the case that 2431 and 2237 refer to any sort of activity that has the possibility of leading to a pregnancy. This may be sexual or non-sexual.
Initially I took zina to mean adultery for the wrong reasons. But the discussion between you and others lead me to believe that it is illegal sex, on this point we are in agreement. But I sincerely don't see how fornication falls in the category of illegal sex. The only verses that limit sexual activity are 235-6 and 70 29-31 where sexual activity is limited to the zawj and MMA. In addition to this, we must also not be lewd fahisha. This determines in what manner, for what purpose and with whom one can engage in sex with.
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Hi all,
Thanks for your insight into the topic. I'm not one that has read the qur'an inside out and analysed it word for word so I'm looking for some answers here, although the internet may not be the best source.
In my opinion, people that are not accustomed to sex or not desensitised from the act may not find it lawful to do so or possibly aren't ready for it. With every good intention, others may not be in the position to marry, especially in western countries where a mixture of cultures and beliefs makes it difficult for the opposite sex to come together in marriage. I think it's also very important to make a distinction between rape and consensual sex as well, as the former is definitely prohibited.
Overall, humans were made in a certain way and when not in a position to marry, with every good intention, humans should be allowed to use their genitals and it's in good health to do so. Not using your genitals, especially at a mature age could make a person disfunctional behaviourally. Regular sex is also believed to release pheromones, that are important to interaction between the opposite sex and to initiate a relationship in the first place.
So yes, there are different perspectives from muslims that may not be in similar situations to other muslims, and very difficult I think to understand one another and interpret a set general law that applies to everyone in this case. Once again, in my opinion, especially to those who live in western countries and may not be part of a community in which you are in a position to marry, do not put yourself at a disadvantage. It is in good health, in the interest of your survival and in facing adversity to in fact have sex, exercise regularly, take care of your body, and prepare yourself for marriage as well as maintaining your health. What may be difficult to conceive is how to do that and not feel the slightest bit wrong about it, in following the rules of the religion, as that is also most important.
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t-hamzei
you're looking for answers? you never asked any questions.
In my opinion, people that are not accustomed to sex or not desensitised from the act may not find it lawful to do so or possibly aren't ready for it. With every good intention, others may not be in the position to marry, especially in western countries where a mixture of cultures and beliefs makes it difficult for the opposite sex to come together in marriage. I think it's also very important to make a distinction between rape and consensual sex as well, as the former is definitely prohibited.
consensual sex and rape are different. for example a person can have consensual sex with a prostitute, yet i do not believe that is healthy.
Overall, humans were made in a certain way and when not in a position to marry, with every good intention, humans should be allowed to use their genitals and it's in good health to do so. Not using your genitals, especially at a mature age could make a person disfunctional behaviourally. Regular sex is also believed to release pheromones, that are important to interaction between the opposite sex and to initiate a relationship in the first place.
disfunctional behaviour is primarily psychological
regular exercise has been scientifically proven to release pheromones.
So yes, there are different perspectives from muslims that may not be in similar situations to other muslims, and very difficult I think to understand one another and interpret a set general law that applies to everyone in this case. Once again, in my opinion, especially to those who live in western countries and may not be part of a community in which you are in a position to marry, do not put yourself at a disadvantage. It is in good health, in the interest of your survival and in facing adversity to in fact have sex, exercise regularly, take care of your body, and prepare yourself for marriage as well as maintaining your health. What may be difficult to conceive is how to do that and not feel the slightest bit wrong about it, in following the rules of the religion, as that is also most important.
There are many humans on the planet, people are surviving without sex. people can make opportunities for marriage.
so in my opinion protect your modesty, good things will come to those who strive and are patient and stay away from zina.
peace.
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Overall, humans were made in a certain way and when not in a position to marry, with every good intention, humans should be allowed to use their genitals and it's in good health to do so. Not using your genitals, especially at a mature age could make a person disfunctional behaviourally. Regular sex is also believed to release pheromones, that are important to interaction between the opposite sex and to initiate a relationship in the first place.
The Catholic Church may not be the best example for this, but there are many, many nuns and priests who abstain from sex and are in perfect mental health. The belief that sex is crucial for physical or mental wellbeing has widely been debunked by most doctors as outdated. While it's true that sex releases the hormone oxytocin, which has been linked to pair-bonding, there are many other ways that the body releases this hormone that are completely non-sexual. A mother's body releases oxytocin while she's in the presence of her child. Two platonic friends will both release oxytocin while doing something as innocuous as watching TV together. Two people who have just met and have a romantic interest in each other also release oxytocin just from speaking to one another.
To comment on the OT of this thread In my admittedly less-informed opinion, I think that premarital sex is a sin but only punishable/judgeable by God, alone. My opinion comes from the fact that there are too many factors at play for why a couple may choose not to abstain until marriage for humans to judge one another for this. Only an omniscient Being could have all the facts in order to make a fair judgement. I think the reason people are having such a hard time pinpointing a clear prohibition is because the subject was intended to remain ambiguous to humans.
This isn't to say that premarital sex is then permissible to God, just that humans shouldn't be allowed to decide for each other, with worldly laws, and we certainly shouldn't be allowed to punish people for it. It should be discouraged for all, but forbidden to none, as far as humans are concerned. The discouragement gets easier and easier, anyway, as more research comes out that points to marriage as the healthiest outlet for sexual expression, which just proves what God's been saying all along. Makes sense that the manual written by the Manufacturer would have the best user tips.
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...some people can feel the advantages of only having sex with a spouse... others don't... just like some people feel there is a God, while others don't. It's something you can sense within. If you cannot feel it inside, what's good for you and not, then we can anyway not trust our minds to make out the difference. Those who do that which really benefit them, will be benefited, and those who do things that are not good for them will be adversely affected, even if it is not apparent... but hey... there are lots of things that are not apparent to many people. So that's why we discuss things... so that some of us might pick up some wise points... and in the end, it's all about ourselves anyway... whatever we do will come back to us in some form, sooner or later. It's also VEEEEEERY easy to be biased in favor of oneself and the situation one is in. If you're e.g. already in a gf/bf sexual relationship, it's very easy to argue in favor of it and find all those things that favor your situation....favor your own special likes and dislikes... .. that's what many people do....
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Hi all,
Thanks for your insight into the topic. I'm not one that has read the qur'an inside out and analysed it word for word so I'm looking for some answers here, although the internet may not be the best source.
In my opinion, people that are not accustomed to sex or not desensitised from the act may not find it lawful to do so or possibly aren't ready for it. With every good intention, others may not be in the position to marry, especially in western countries where a mixture of cultures and beliefs makes it difficult for the opposite sex to come together in marriage. I think it's also very important to make a distinction between rape and consensual sex as well, as the former is definitely prohibited.
Overall, humans were made in a certain way and when not in a position to marry, with every good intention, humans should be allowed to use their genitals and it's in good health to do so. Not using your genitals, especially at a mature age could make a person disfunctional behaviourally. Regular sex is also believed to release pheromones, that are important to interaction between the opposite sex and to initiate a relationship in the first place.
So yes, there are different perspectives from muslims that may not be in similar situations to other muslims, and very difficult I think to understand one another and interpret a set general law that applies to everyone in this case. Once again, in my opinion, especially to those who live in western countries and may not be part of a community in which you are in a position to marry, do not put yourself at a disadvantage. It is in good health, in the interest of your survival and in facing adversity to in fact have sex, exercise regularly, take care of your body, and prepare yourself for marriage as well as maintaining your health. What may be difficult to conceive is how to do that and not feel the slightest bit wrong about it, in following the rules of the religion, as that is also most important.
Hi t-hamzei
Regarding sex I think the important questions are
- When is it right to have sex 2) How much sex is the right amount 3) What sort of things should or shouldn't be done when having sex
As far as I know, no one here thinks of sex as wrong. Difference in opinion is on when it's right to have sex. For example some at one end of the spectrum might say that sex should only be done after marriage and only when one wants kids. At the other end of the spectrum some might say that sex should happen whenever one gets the opportunity.
Regarding 1, I think that it's when two people have sufficiently gotten to know each other and are both comfortable and happy about having sex. This is regardless of whether they have gotten married or not.
Regarding 2, I think once a week (for various reasons)
Regarding 3, I think that fantasies and fetishes that involve domination or degradation or other like things should be kept away because their addictive and I also think that they are detrimental to sex's potential in providing feelings of love and affection regarding the two individuals involved.
Its part of our nature to have sex just as its part of our nature to eat food (although we die without food but not without sex). Both can either be beneficial or detrimental. Godwilling you'l figure out the rights and wrongs on this issue.
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Hi t-hamzei
Regarding sex I think the important questions are
- When is it right to have sex 2) How much sex is the right amount 3) What sort of things should or shouldn't be done when having sex
As far as I know, no one here thinks of sex as wrong. Difference in opinion is on when it's right to have sex. For example some at one end of the spectrum might say that sex should only be done after marriage and only when one wants kids. At the other end of the spectrum some might say that sex should happen whenever one gets the opportunity.
Regarding 1, I think that it's when two people have sufficiently gotten to know each other and are both comfortable and happy about having sex. This is regardless of whether they have gotten married or not.
Regarding 2, I think once a week (for various reasons)
Regarding 3, I think that fantasies and fetishes that involve domination or degradation or other like things should be kept away because their addictive and I also think that they are detrimental to sex's potential in providing feelings of love and affection regarding the two individuals involved.
Its part of our nature to have sex just as its part of our nature to eat food (although we die without food but not without sex). Both can either be beneficial or detrimental. Godwilling you'l figure out the rights and wrongs on this issue.
I am sorry brother but I have to challenge you here.....What you are saying has absolutely no Quranic reference at all. Or maybe your comments are not based on the Quran? Please respond, because if you derive your conclusions from Islam then I will be like ??? ??? ???
