How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace Zubairus
If an instruction is only for the consumption of prophet which oly him can understand, why is it mention in the quran which is for all of us? For what purpose?
I understand what your saying but the scripture was also for the prophet as well as for us. To make what i'm saying slightly clearer think of it like this. In the Quran there are verses that are directed at the women. Those verse are for the women and not for the men. Similarly the verses for the prophet are for the prophet.
God willing, I will reinstate/re explain my point for clarity, but please let me know in a very clear terms with examples what you mean by 'those whom you have an oath with'.
Looking forward to seeeing you explanation.No problem.
43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you maintain by your oaths. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
From this i consider MMA to be possibly two things. Either a nanny or a caretaker of some sort or a girlfriend. My reasoning for this is that this is what is advised if one fears that they cannot be just to the orphans. Slave may also be equally possible so far
But then looking at 235-6, I take slave out of the equation for reasons i explained in my last post and I also take a nanny out of the eqution because it would not make sense to be able to unguard one's private parts to a nanny. Thus I consider something like a girlfriend as the strongest option.
235 And they guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.I then consider the possibility of MMA to mean something like a girlfriend stronger with this verse
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess....
So far we have concluded that to marry muhsinat, they must come from MMA. From the above is it also not such that to marry fatayat, they must come from MMA is well? The only other occurence of fatayat according to studyquran's project root thing is in 2433 and that verse does not say that fatayat can be married without them having to come from MMA.So with fatayat also a class that must come from MMA, is there any class that can be married without them having to come from MMA? I have not heard of any other class with respect to marriage.
Anyway from what i've discussed i currently think that MMA= something like a girl/boyfriend of some sort.
From what i've discussed, so far think that MMA is something like a girlfirend. I've not come across the usage of the phrase MMA in the Quran which could imply otherwise when i searched this phrase in globalquran and looked at the verses that came up.
What do you think?
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But then looking at 235-6, I take slave out of the equation for reasons i explained in my last post and I also take a nanny out of the eqution because it would not make sense to be able to unguard one's private parts to a nanny. Thus I consider something like a girlfriend as the strongest option.
235 And they guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.Perhaps the only problem is in interpreting 235?
Because if you don't translate 235 as "abstaining from sex" or as having anything to do with sexual intercourse, it wouldn't matter what your translation of "MMA" is (which is then made irrelevant to the subject).
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Peace All )
I?ve been doing some reading about this topic so I thought I shall share my ideas, forgive me if it?s been discussed but take some thought.
Before we can say if sex is ok outside of marriage we need to understand what marriage is.
I noticed when reading, the terms ?nissa? and ?azwaj? are linked with wife. However the term ?nissa? is not exclusive to wives. Azwaj seems to better fit the criteria. Azwaj can be understood as something like you, your pair, a pair. I need to look at word occurrences for z-wa-j to see if it?s limited to spouses.
What I think about ?nikkah?. nikkah to me is a relationship. So I guess it could be seen as a marriage. However not necessarily. The ones that do zina do nikkah with each other (243) If we conclude that the zina people can never do nikkah with other people that would be illogical because that means we only accept them as lewd and that they can never be forgiven. But rather they seek a relationship with their kind because that?s how they survive and it?s what they seek.
Now for nikkah to be permissible in our case, I think it needs witnesses. Quran doesn?t stipulate any ceremony. If people choose that, that is their choice but anyway you might think why I think this (in terms of witnesses). The verse 652 indicates when a couple is going for a divorce that they bring a party from each other?s side to help with reconciliation or basically eventuate the parting. This verse indicates that somewhere down the line their relationship needs to be known. Furthermore I believe verse 2235 is against secrecy in relations. To me this is evidence nikkah should be known.
Verse 3350 makes it clear we can marry/nikkah with MMA. So by that we know MMA can?t equal a slave however MMA is ?what your right hand posses? possess indicates control. I?m not sure if I can clearly define MMA but I believe it would be someone such as a close relative in your control (blood or not blood related). Once you marry/nikkah an MMA i believe they become your azwaj, because you are taking them as that not taking them as an mma.
1671 says that there are people who do not share their sustenance with MMA's that they would become equal. So I assume they are not kids why would parents be afraid that their kids will come to their equal status?
Now read 425, basically we can put it in 2 categories one, a girl independent another being taken care of (having an oath/control) of somebody (MMA). If you can?t find an independent girl (girl 1) than you can marry/nikkah the MMA (girl 2). For MMA you take permission from their guardians. (I need to look more into this verse some things I don?t understand)
If the MMA?s have an oath or are in the control of someone, how could it equal to they have my oath for exposing sexual parts/pleasure/relationships with them? I think this claim is illogical. Besides read 2433 MMA?s can?t be coerced to nikkah to the ones in their possession! Possession as in the one that looks after them. So if you take a relationship with someone they don't become your MMA, if you want a relationship WITH an MMA you need permission (425)
So my thoughts of MMA have changed.
In regards to f-r-j, I?m looking into it still.
Peace.
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Peace nimnimak,
I thought MMA meant those whom you have an oath with and not a bond.
I really want to know from you the meaning of oath with example in the context of our discussion.
I then consider the possibility of MMA to mean something like a girlfriend stronger with this verse
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess....
So far we have concluded that to marry muhsinat, they must come from MMA. From the above is it also not such that to marry fatayat, they must come from MMA is well? The only other occurence of fatayat according to studyquran's project root thing is in 2433 and that verse does not say that fatayat can be married without them having to come from MMA.So with fatayat also a class that must come from MMA, is there any class that can be married without them having to come from MMA? I have not heard of any other class with respect to marriage.
Anyway from what i've discussed i currently think that MMA= something like a girl/boyfriend of some sort.
From what i've discussed, so far think that MMA is something like a girlfirend. I've not come across the usage of the phrase MMA in the Quran which could imply otherwise when i searched this phrase in globalquran and looked at the verses that came up.
What do you think?
Let us go back to 3350-52
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you
have already given their dowries, and those who are maintained
by your oath, as granted to you by God; and the daughters of the
brothers of your father, and the daughters of the sisters of your
father, and the daughters of the brothers of your mother, and the
daughters of the sisters of your mother - those who emigrated
with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to
the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege
given only to you and not to the believers. We have already
decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are
maintained by their oaths. This is to spare you any hardship. God
is Forgiver, Merciful.
3351 You may postpone whom you will of them, and you may receive
whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you
have set aside then there is no sin upon you. Such is best that they
may be comforted and not grieve, and that they may all be pleased
287
3351 ? 3361
with what you give them. And God knows what is in your hearts.
And God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change
them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their
beauty, except what is maintained by your oath. And God is
Watcher over all things.Do you mean the quran is refering to the prophet's girl friends where MMA were mentioned in the above verses?
THINK ABOUT IT
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace nimnimak,
In 425, the quran said if you do not have the means to wed muhsanat,you may mary MMA from fatayatikum.......
Are you saying by this, if a person has no the means to marry muhsanat, he should go and marry his girl friend ?
THINK ABOUT IT
ZUBAIRUS
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Salam R
That's not what we're debating. We're discussing wether sex is exclusive to marraige or not. In other words wether sex before marriage is haram or not.
I don't believe there is any such thing as sex before marriage. Sex is marriage. Adultery is divorce. So the sins associated with relationships which do not follow the rules of marriage are not about having a 'different kind of sex' - no such thing exists. Rather they are sins of ignoring the proper procedure.
How can they be the same when MMA are part of the group that are permitted for marriage? Once you marry them they are no longer MMA.
Thank you for the video. We should keep these things in mind.MMA and spouse can be the same because the two kinds of spouse are the wife and the husband.
Hence 424 - listing people you can't be married to - "And the married from the women except what your oaths possess"
actually means "and the married women except as their husband". -
Nima , i think, wants the goodies without having to take up the responsibilites which a sexual relationship may throw in his face. Although it's not a concept within the quran , i wonder if it will take off within the quranic community as it has done in the western culture- i doubt it though.
As Zubairus said which prophets used to have girlfriends, any? Any historical facts apart from the religious texts?
peace
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Perhaps the only problem is in interpreting 235?
Because if you don't translate 235 as "abstaining from sex" or as having anything to do with sexual intercourse, it wouldn't matter what your translation of "MMA" is (which is then made irrelevant to the subject).
You are right.
That could well be the problem. But i have not seen any strong Quranic refutaions yet. Could you provide Quranic support for why sex with MMA should be haram when it is permissble for us to unguard our privates to them like we unguard them to our spouses? People have argued to this and said that this (unguarding) is not the equivalent of sex. I did not claim this. I claimed that what it does mean is that one is free to ungaurd those parts which would mean that sex would become part of the things permissible. Unless this is restricted or limited by the Quran in some other verse which i have not seen.The word guard and the fact that MMA is often mentioned alongside azwaaj and the fact that to marry muhsinat they must come from MMA is IMO pretty strong in conveying that sex with MMA is halal. The issue in hand would be what qualifies one as an MMA.
If there was like a verse that said that sex is exclusive to marriage or if there was no MMA in 235-6 then that would work. But UNLESS we as the readers don't automatically assume that sex is exclusive to marriages, this won't work. And I don't see how we can be justified in assuming this.
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You are right.
That could well be the problem. But i have not seen any strong Quranic refutaions yet. Could you provide Quranic support for why sex with MMA should be haram when it is permissble for us to unguard our privates to them like we unguard them to our spouses? People have argued to this and said that this (unguarding) is not the equivalent of sex. I did not claim this. I claimed that what it does mean is that one is free to ungaurd those parts which would mean that sex would become part of the things permissible. Unless this is restricted or limited by the Quran in some other verse which i have not seen.The word guard and the fact that MMA is often mentioned alongside azwaaj and the fact that to marry muhsinat they must come from MMA is IMO pretty strong in conveying that sex with MMA is halal. The issue in hand would be what qualifies one as an MMA.
If there was like a verse that said that sex is exclusive to marriage or if there was no MMA in 235-6 then that would work. But UNLESS we as the readers don't automatically assume that sex is exclusive to marriages, this won't work. And I don't see how we can be justified in assuming this.
Hi Nima,
Do these Ayah's go some way to depict who we may have sex with Br?
So can only wives bear children; doesn?t girlfriend accidently bear?..
025.074
YUSUFALI And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
025.075
YUSUFALI Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy therein shall they be met with salutations and peace,They were approaching Men rather then those who would be their wives Azwaj where went the girlfriends?
026.165
YUSUFALI "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
026.166
YUSUFALI "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"Again children only from wives, how about the children a girl friend may get?
016.072
YUSUFALI And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-Children from wives!
013.038
YUSUFALI We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).peace
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Salam Sarah
I?ve been doing some reading about this topic so I thought I shall share my ideas, forgive me if it?s been discussed but take some thought.
It all looks new to me. Nice angle of approaching this issue.
Before we can say if sex is ok outside of marriage we need to understand what marriage is.
hmm
What I think about ?nikkah?. nikkah to me is a relationship. So I guess it could be seen as a marriage. However not necessarily. The ones that do zina do nikkah with each other (243) If we conclude that the zina people can never do nikkah with other people that would be illogical because that means we only accept them as lewd and that they can never be forgiven. But rather they seek a relationship with their kind because that?s how they survive and it?s what they seek.
Not sure on this because zina is more intense then fahsha. But still good point because people do change. Heres the verse 243 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
Ok heres what i think based on the above. The verse also mentions polytheists. Now one can be a polytheist but change to a believer right? thus meaning that they are no longer a polythiest. Same with zina. One who commits zina is an adulterer. But if they change their ways, i don't think we can call them an adulterer anymore. Same with polythiests. Thus as long as they remain that, they are forbidden to believers. But once they become believers, then they are not haram to believers.
Verse 3350 makes it clear we can marry/nikkah with MMA. So by that we know MMA can?t equal a slave however MMA is ?what your right hand posses? possess indicates control.
I think anyone whom you have an oath with or a contract, you have some controle or right over them.
I?m not sure if I can clearly define MMA but I believe it would be someone such as a close relative in your control (blood or not blood related). Once you marry/nikkah an MMA i believe they become your azwaj, because you are taking them as that not taking them as an mma.
The problem with this is that in order to marry muhsinat women, one must first make them their MMA. The muhsinat must come from MMA in order to marry them. Same with fatayat i think.
Now read 425, basically we can put it in 2 categories one, a girl independent another being taken care of (having an oath/control) of somebody (MMA). If you can?t find an independent girl (girl 1) than you can marry/nikkah the MMA (girl 2). For MMA you take permission from their guardians. (I need to look more into this verse some things I don?t understand)
To me this verse would make sense as if you can't marry the independent women, marry the dependent ones as permission then is requiered from their parents/guardians
Ok from this verse what i get is that if you can't marry the muhsinat (bear in mind that you first need them to be MMA) then marry the dependent women who are your MMA. Which would convey that anyone you do intend to marry must first come through MMA.
If the MMA?s have an oath or are in the control of someone, how could it equal to they have my oath for exposing sexual parts/pleasurerelationships with them? I think this claim is illogical. Besides read 2433 MMA?s can?t be coerced to nikkah to the ones in their possession! Possession as in the one that looks after them.
I doubt that a parent can be an MMA based on 2431. All categories are mentioned and MMA is a seperate one.
From where do you get that MMAs are somebody elses MMA first?So if you take a relationship with someone they don't become your MMA, if you want a relationship WITH an MMA you need permission (425
Not sure on this based on what i've said so far.
Good luck on your search on f-r-j
peace
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Hi Nima,
Do these Ayah's go some way to depict who we may have sex with Br?
So can only wives bear children; doesn?t girlfriend accidently bear?..
025.074
YUSUFALI And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
025.075
YUSUFALI Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy therein shall they be met with salutations and peace,They were approaching Men rather then those who would be their wives Azwaj where went the girlfriends?
026.165
YUSUFALI "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
026.166
YUSUFALI "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"Again children only from wives, how about the children a girl friend may get?
016.072
YUSUFALI And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-Children from wives!
013.038
YUSUFALI We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).peace
Hi Simple
I've chosen not to read your post because of your other posts. In particular this one
Nima , i think, wants the goodies without having to take up the responsibilites which a sexual relationship may throw in his face. Although it's not a concept within the quran , i wonder if it will take off within the quranic community as it has done in the western culture- i doubt it though.
I really don't see the point or vitue in replying to you beyond this.
Salam
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Hi Simple
I've chosen not to read your post because of your other posts. In particular this one
I really don't see the point or vitue in replying to you beyond this.Salam
peace
I respect that
but still again just consider the Ayah's
peace
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peace
I respect that
but still again just consider the Ayah's
peace
I did. Thanks
Peace
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Peace nimnimak,
I really want to know from you the meaning of oath with example in the context of our discussion.
Let us go back to 3350-52
Do you mean the quran is refering to the prophet's girl friends where MMA were mentioned in the above verses?THINK ABOUT IT
ZUBAIRUS
Peace Zubairus
Sorry about the lateish reply. Got a bit distracted.
Oath on it's own is something i can't say in terms of Quran because i'm not sure. I know it's something very important to MMA but i was hoping first to round up all arguments against the act of sex with MMA or arguments for MMA being someting like a slave and then move onto the part of oath which is a very important part as this i think will determine much in terms of boundries and so on. It may even bring a completely different understanding to what an MMA is. But nevertheless i am still trying to conclude that sex with MMA is permissible based on what i have argued so far.
With respect to 3350
Not necessarily girlfriends. It could be like a fiance or something less. But i would think that it's on the lines of something which leads up to a marriage.
I can only think of relationships that do this. So i would think that it has to fall in the circle of a relationship. But the prophet's time was 1400 years ago i'm not sure how engagement and things like that would have worked back then. -
Peace nimnimak,
In 425, the quran said if you do not have the means to wed muhsanat,you may mary MMA from fatayatikum.......
Are you saying by this, if a person has no the means to marry muhsanat, he should go and marry his girl friend ?
THINK ABOUT IT
ZUBAIRUS
No i was kinda thinking if one has not the means to marry a muhsinat then one should marry fatayatikum. Both i think would have to first become MMA in order to be able to marry them. So both would be a girlfriend or a fiance at some point before marriage. But the difference between a muhsinat and fatayat is something that needs to be clarified as this will shed light on what muhsinat women possess that make them different with respect to fatayat for marriage and how if one has not the means a fatayat will solve the problem.
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I don't believe there is any such thing as sex before marriage. Sex is marriage. Adultery is divorce. So the sins associated with relationships which do not follow the rules of marriage are not about having a 'different kind of sex' - no such thing exists. Rather they are sins of ignoring the proper procedure.
MMA and spouse can be the same because the two kinds of spouse are the wife and the husband.
Hence 424 - listing people you can't be married to - "And the married from the women except what your oaths possess"
actually means "and the married women except as their husband".What about this
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
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43, the Liquid Dharma translation
"If you don't think you can look after the orphans well enough, marry the women (their mothers with) 2, 3 or 4 (orphaned children) or of you can't (because you are female), take a husband (fathers of orphaned children) that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
Want me to try another one?
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43, the Liquid Dharma translation
"If you don't think you can look after the orphans well enough, marry the women (their mothers with) 2, 3 or 4 (orphaned children) or of you can't (because you are female), take a husband (fathers of orphaned children) that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
Want me to try another one?
hmm
if you can't = it clearly states in arabic 'if you fear you can't do justice'
take a husband is wrong because 'wahadatan' is feminine not masculine
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Salam Nima
I missed your post before sorry
Ok heres what i think based on the above. The verse also mentions polytheists. Now one can be a polytheist but change to a believer right? thus meaning that they are no longer a polythiest. Same with zina. One who commits zina is an adulterer. But if they change their ways, i don't think we can call them an adulterer anymore. Same with polythiests. Thus as long as they remain that, they are forbidden to believers. But once they become believers, then they are not haram to believers.
Right, people change so we accept them as they are today.
MMA is a limited category.. to me it indicates right hands posses someone you have control of, someone under your care. i.e. such as orphans/widows.
The problem with this is that in order to marry muhsinat women, one must first make them their MMA. The muhsinat must come from MMA in order to marry them. Same with fatayat i think.
No this is wrong. Are you talking about verse 425?
Muhsinat is a preference over mma, if you cant marry muhsinat then marry an MMA. Not marry muhsinat from MMA. It is illogical because muhsinat are independent, mma are not. Get me? We take mma as someone we have an oath but i believe its more than this.
Ok from this verse what i get is that if you can't marry the muhsinat (bear in mind that you first need them to be MMA) then marry the dependent women who are your MMA. Which would convey that anyone you do intend to marry must first come through MMA.
Find me the verse that says muhsinat need to first be MMA, maybe Im looking at the wrong place.
I doubt that a parent can be an MMA based on 2431. All categories are mentioned and MMA is a seperate one.
From where do you get that MMAs are somebody elses MMA first
?An MMA can be anyone who isnt independent someone under someones care. But I think the category is even smaller than that. But anyway if someone is under my care theyre my mma, maybe you choose to marry that person, and verse 425 proves that person needs permission from the ahl to marry that mma. But lets say another scenario. I have an mma and I got married and I no longer wanted to care for that mma or couldnt or whatever another person could take that mma.
From my reading MMA doesnt = a gf/bf type relationships
MMAs arent in the prohibited boundaries of marriage right? so when the verses says protect your frj from azwaj or mma. Well basically its saying protect your secret affairs with these people.
Frj can also mean faults (but probably not the strongest translation in this context).
If you marry an mma well than you could have sex with them. IF you marry them so then the frj could mean sex provided you do nikkah with them. Why I say this?
3350 makes it clear we can marry/nikkah with MMA. MMA arent automatically married to us
2433 MMAs cant be coerced to nikkah
425 if you want a relationship WITH an MMA you need permission.sex isn't an automatic given
Also
Read this verse
3355 (Asad) it is no sin for them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their womenfolk, or such as their right hands may possess. But remain conscious of God - for, behold, God is witness unto everything.
The idea of appearing freely, relaxed in dress code in front of their bros etc is the same with MMA. It gives indication its not about sex or sexual connotations. For me this is a stronger opinion in regards to mma not being oath partners with allowance of sexual relations because you wouldnt do that with your brother! Or your sister!
This is my current understanding
peace