If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?
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Yes, hope4 is right.
The books of hadith do not contain nearly as much information about "salah" as they will have us believe.
By "salah" I mean the 5 daily rituals which are a part of the Sunni tradition.
Anyone among us here should not forget to raise this point when in discussion with a Sunni, whether it be family or friends.
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My biggest problem with salah right now is the congregational prayer.
I like congregational prayer. And if there is no fixed authoritative guideline on how to pray, which I can understand, then what happens to the masjid? How do people then pray in congregation?
And yes, I'm fully aware that liking something isn't a strong reason to include it in your belief system. But I have an intrinsic, instinctual attraction to the notion of a physical salat performed in masjids at fixed time periods.
The reasons I like this concept is because it acts as a reminder for everyone that they are brothers under the God. It forces the rich and the poor to stand shoulder to shoulder several times a day. I have no problem in accepting what people are saying here about salah being a connection with God where we remember Him and revere him by reading his great reading, but what becomes of the physical congregational salah??
As an architecture student, I've spent a considerable amount of time researching the development and organization of the old Arabian and Islamic cities, where the acts of worship, trade, commerce, and residence were all occupied in the same space; where the city grew around the main mosque. It's this concept, that the mosque is the center of the city and thereby the symbolic center of people's lives that I've always adhered to and loved.
So while I can understand and admire a more 'free-form' interpretation of prayer, and its implications to people around the world, I can't shake this nagging longing to find an ayah in the reading that would finally "7addid" or set in stone how it is to be performed, and for it to be performed in congregation.
Edit And it is this confusion that is causing me distress in my faith. Because I find myself unable to perform any salah. When I believed that there was one fixed way of doing it, I had no problems focusing and connecting in earnest with God. But now I'm unconvinced that my method is correct, and this inner dilemma is hindering me from performing prayer with the purity that I had before...
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Peace be with you ths!
I enjoy a ritualized/liturgical salat myself. I pray 3x a day. My prayer is similar with the Sunni minus parts that address or elevate any but God. I pray in English though sometimes in Arabic. If you pm me I will send you a copy of how I pray a Quran Only type of Salaat. It is not the only way by any means but it is one way. )
Jay
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Peace THS
I totally understand what u r feeling. I have been feeling the same way. At the moment I am in a phase where I am not doing ritualistic prayer 3 times a day regularly. I feel confused in understanding what i am suppose to do in a prayer. I have tried to to do 2 sujood while saying some quranic verses but then the next day I become lazy due to confusion about timings and if Salah is also studying the quraan and "thanking" Allah and doing good deeds etc.
I read a lot of posts here at the moment and i agree with many here on FM. I have come to learn about Islam as the most beautiful way of living. And the Quraan as my ONLY guidance. With a lot of Quraan studying I hope to gain more knowledge and applying it to my life .
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Thanks brother I'd love to hear your views! I'll PM you now
I feel confused in understanding what i am suppose to do in a prayer.
the next day I become lazy due to confusion about timings and if Salah is also studying the quraan and "thanking" Allah and doing good deeds etc.
Yes I experience this same thing. And that worries me, because before the right answer always felt right, and if one didn't obey then it was out of sheer laziness and negligence.
But this is a new kind of problem uncertainty in what you're doing.I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think I can pinpoint now what my greatest problems are with this new interpretation the lack of community involvement.
I used to have a set of ..let's say "pragmatic" reasoning behind every Muslim act of worship. I'll explain them as follows
Prayer Your inner, personal connection with the one God. That is easy to understand.
Congregational Prayer To build a sense of unity as a community. Where the rich stand amongst the poor, where racial and class distinctions are destroyed, where brotherhood is truly created for all to see. They stand together, bend together, and kneel together.
The sight of people flocking to the mosques after hearing the adhan would itself act as a trigger of shame for the lazy - I know it has shamed me on several occasions!
Also, I saw the fixed timings as a beautiful thing - set in stone to help the community take breaks from their work and hardship in the most ideal times as preferred by God.
The workers were now free 5 times a day to stop working, having a drink of water, refresh themselves, and perform a prayer together. To affirm their brotherhood. I saw this as an emancipation and liberation of the poor workers of the world, for who could tell them not to stop so that they could pray?Hajj
a) To me the Hajj was meant to be a lesson. It was a time where people came together, but could do no wrong, nor steal, nor be rude to one another -- essentially it is the perfect community, for one week of each year, and I saw its divine 'logic' as a lesson, whereby all the people who took part in it were taught how a TRUE community under God should act, in the hopes that they would then take this knowledge away with them to their own communities and propagate it.
b) I also thought of the Hajj as a safeguard, to make sure Muslims all over the world safeguarded the correct teachings of religion. If Musims in China had no reason to travel all the way to Mecca, then their community would become isolated, and bid3a and innovations would spread through the religion. So the Hajj was a protector and a guideline for all the communities.
Ramadan
Ramadan also had a community meaning to me. Of course it is a personal quest, but a whole community of people abstaining for food for the whole day for an entire month is a powerful thing to see, and inspiring to all. Again, a sort of reminder to those who have strayed over the year that it is now time to get back in the fold.
Zakat
This is the most obvious relation to community. Whereby the rich feed the poor, and the money of the society trickles down from the top to the bottom. It is self explanatory and its wisdom is obvious.
So my problem is that with the breakdown of a fixed system of prayer, set in stone on specific times of the day, everyone will be praying by themselves, and if no one can agree on the exact way to pray, or the direction to pray to, then how are we to pray in congregation?
Then ayah 2145 really does gain some meaning
Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla.Edit I found an excellent link posted by Wakas on another thread http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm
Seems to be a pretty substantial list of all ayahs relating to salah and a short sentence summarizing each. Very useful -
Just a thought. I am trying to form a local community in my state. I have wrestled with how to do this if God willing we succeed. I think there would need to be things that this community aggreed upon in order to meet together. Maybe it is a form their prayers will take. I cannot imagine the prayers during the time of Muhammed being chaotic with each one doing their own thing. I think they had a way of doing them. I think we too could have a procedure. We may have to admit that it is not set in stone, but represents our community coming together as one to pray. They of course would be free to follow the dictates of their conscience and their understanding of the scriptures...but I think God has allowed us some freedom in how we approach Salaat-that those communities who prefer the ritualistic prayer could do so and those with more individualistic expressions could do so as well. I am sure this was something similar that was expressed when the Protestant Reformation broke away from the Roman Church. Some of them retained a liturgical structure similar to the Roman (minus parts they considerered in error) while others changed the structure completely all according to their understanding of the early church, scripture, and the dictates of conscience.
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This makes me think that there's a bit of a paradox in taking the Quran alone.
Part of the beauty of taking the Quran alone (besides the logical arguments of course) is that it will demolish all the sects - and as a result all the new adherents from the various sects shall be as one. It is the only way to remove the other sects. I don't see how sunnis believe that all the other sectarians will somehow see the 'light' or truth in their version and begin to follow them, nor how the shia believe that all the other sectarians will see the light in their teaching.
The only logical way to combat sects is to follow what we all have in common the QuranBut,
If there is a widespread disagreement on prayer and how it is to be performed, then surely more sects will develop? People who believe it is a physical prayer will refuse to pray in the mosques of those who believe it is a reading, and those who believe it is a reading only without prostration to the ground will refuse to pray in the mosques of those who believe it is a physical prayer, and so on and so forth.
And the end result of that will be two or more camps, but instead of shia and sunni we now have the physical prayers and the non-physical prayers, and all of their subsects.
giveup -
Salaam, when I reverted it was in a Sunni majority Mosque & after my reversion I was reminded that I was a Sunni Muslim. I didn't know much about the differences between the Muslim 'sects' I just believed in Allah as the only God & Muhammad as His last Prophet & felt I had to make that declaration to become a Muslim. I prayed as a Sunni, 5 times a day to start with because this is all I knew & all I was told by my Sunni Akhi's. As we know there is no clear example in the Qur'an of how to physically pray except bow & prostate & if we are to do what feels right then what's wrong with praying like the Sunni's pray? I still pray like this, although not 5 times a day & it still feels right to me. I don't do that 'tapping finger' thing anymore though! I basically follow the example at submission.org website. However we pray to Allah, Allah knows that we are submitting and praying to Him alone & surely that's all that matters?
Peace. -
I don't see why it would have to result in more sects. I for one have no problem with those who follow a ritualistic Salaat nor with those who hold that we should do it 5 times a day. The Quran allows for diversity of opinion on this issue...should we do any less?
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The books of hadith do not contain nearly as much information about "salah" as they will have us believe.
By "salah" I mean the 5 daily rituals which are a part of the Sunni tradition.
Anyone among us here should not forget to raise this point when in discussion with a Sunni, whether it be family or friends.
Salam
Can you kindly provide some detailed references to substantiate this stand.i always thought that details of the Prophets prayer including his duas called 'Masnoon'duas are available in the books of hadith.
Javed -
peace Javed,
You may find this link helpful
http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0Peace Wakas.
Thank you for the link.You are ever ready to help,as always.God Bless.That article was helpful but not too much since the evidence provided is too little and too generalised.To claim and prove that even the books of hadith do not shed light on the Prophet's understanding of salat would be a major nail in the traditionalist cofffin since they always claim that they stick to hadith because they can perform God's command to uphold salat better with them.And yes, they do have a number of ahadith which they can furnish to supposedly describe his salat in detail.A bit contradictory but they have their explanations for that.So at the moment, it would be unconvinceing to claim Hadith does not contain the methods of the Prophet's salat and such a stance would be rejected in a court of law.All views on this narrow point are welcome.
Javed -
I agree 100% with whats being said here.
Personnally, I find it completely fusterating... I feel like in some parts of being a Quran Alone (or on Free-minds) all it has done was unveil Islam...
however in a negitive way for me.http//i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/Cachet_Cats/Supplies/Yarnball.png
Like a Yarn ball that keeps rolling, and as it rolls and unveils...you loose Salat, then you loose Hajj, then you Loose Ramadan, then you loose Jumma, Then you loose certain laws (because people interprete the legal aspects differently), the you loose community, then you loose What "Allah" even means...Then you Loose what the Quran even means... then before you know it..the Yarn ball is completley un-rolled and you are left with the Center of it all NOTHING.Unsure about Salat, Unsure about Hajj, Unsure about Allah, and Unsure about the Quran. Its something that has been bothering me for a long time.
I find it incredibly unbelieveable that Some people cant even understand what the Quran even means or says. we cant even agree in matters from the Most simple like salat...or the most severe like Legal Proceedures.
There is no Community, No Unity. Just Individuals following whatever they want...(which then makes me feel like whats the point then of even being religious if your just going to do what you want anyways)?When Muhammad had the Ummah, It was ONE CHAIN, ONE COMMUNITY, like Ants or Bees. Collectivly working together and Establishing one of the Worlds Biggest/Greatest Empires that would span from Europe to Asia and other parts of the world and would lead the world in Science for over 900 years.
Then something else happened...
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/the-broken-chain1.jpgand because that happened to the Ummah....
This happened to the rest of the world...
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/jingo.jpg
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/blindedhermit/globalist.jpg
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/12-1.jpgI just want the Ummah to be one/strong again.
We dont have to Agree on Everything...but at least figure out a way to be unified again.
I believe in the 5xs day Ritual prayer, and am fine coexisting with those who dont. -
Salam peoples!
I understand what you mean RA786. Even though I believe that our connection with God is a personal one, there are some things that we need to do together such as salat and hajj.
Thanks, I think it is such a strong feeling when you do salat with others and stand in rows. Call it Ritualistic, but it deffinatly is a good way to feeling united or nsync with everyone and everything...(Especially when you pray outdoors).
Its like everyone is focusing/meditating on the same Goal/thing.Like Bee's that all focus on the Collony. or Cells that all focus on the body. there is much power in unity both physically and Spiritually. D
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I have been a member of this Forum for quite some time, even though I lost my password and had to re-register thus showing as a newbie. After reading the arguments for Salaat amongst everything else on this Forum and by the PM's, I have reverted back to the way I was traditionally taught even though I do not recite the Tashahhud, rather I recite parts of the Quran in line with the following ayat
7320 (Asad) BEHOLD, thy Sustainer knows that thou keepest awake nearly two-thirds of the night, or one-half of it, or a third of it, together with some of those who follow thee. And God who determines the measure of night and day, is aware that you would never grudge it and therefore He turns towards you in His grace. recite, then, as much of the Qur?an as you may do with ease. He knows that in time there will be among you sick people, and others who will go about the land in search of God's bounty, and others who will fight in God?s cause. recite, then, as much of it as you may do with ease, and be constant in prayer, and spend in charity, and lend unto God a goodly loan for whatever good deed you may offer up in your own behalf, you shall truly find it with God - yea, better, and richer in reward. And seek God's forgiveness behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
Salaat for me is a combination of Standing, Bowing and Prostrating all at specifiied times, just as I was taught with only the Quran being recited and nothing else. I honestly do feel relieved that I have walked away from the confusion on this Forum about the concept of Salaat and feel at peace with myself and Allah SWT praying in this manner. I do pray 5 times a day, fast, pay zakat and will do Hajj the way it is currrently done at Mecca and make no apologies about this stance. I believe it is the right way for me after evaluating and re-evaluating all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides of the spectrum.
Peace
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Much love to you brother/sister Zulu12,
I find myself in the same stance, except for the hajj.
Currently I believe that I will do the Hajj at Mecca (without kissing the stone or participating in any idoltry things against Allah or Islam)
and will also make my hajj at jerusalem as well.I figure that I may be wrong on either one of the two places, however, I feel hopefull that Allah may perhaps accept my hajj and sincereness in going to both places since I am unsure.
I feel hopeful also that my traditional salat will be accepted.
Today I had a Realization....
What Practice is Un-acceptable from Allah?
Answer SHIRK.So Is Following Tradition ENTIERLY WRONG? I Honestly do not think so. I think that it is impossoble NOT to follow Tradition. I think that Whether you come from Asia, or America , or Iran , or Saudi Arabia, or even England...You will Practice Islamic Monotheism...however Will have some type of Tradition that you are following in your life. and if you dont...you will then make/start one that your children may follow.
I dont think Tradition is bad. I dont think it is even Forbidden. I think Islam is a Universal religion that Accepts ALL TRADITION...as long as it abides by this one Rule
NO SHIRK/abides by the Quran
Therefore I ask evereyone...Is Tradition that doesnt have Shirk and is till withing the confinds of the Quran...STILL Haraam?
I think NO.
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Dear RA786
I understand your predicament concerning Hajj, but for me it will be Mecca. I take this stance beause as I stated in another post regarding Hajj. (see below)
.......Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I am of the opinion that Hajj is at Mecca without a shadow of a doubt in my mind and for me, plus the Quran confirms it. I will inshaallah fulfill this duty one day soon.
597 (Asad) God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.
Furthermore
2158 (Asad) behold, As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the symbols set up by God; and thus, no wrong does he who, having come to the Temple on pilgrimage or on a pious visit, strides to and fro between these two for, if one does more good than he is bound to do-behold, God is responsive to gratitude, all-knowing.
2198 (Asad) you will be committing no sin if you seek to obtain any bounty from your Sustainer. And when you surge downward in multitudes from `Arafat, remember God at the holy place, and remember Him as the One who guided you after you had indeed been lost on your way;
Kaabah, Safa, Marwah and Arafat are not in Jersalem. They are in Mecca. Additionally, I do not believe or accept that the Prophet Mohammed PBUH was born and raised in Jerusalem as some members have incorrectly stipulated. It was KSA.
Peace
If ever the security situation changes in Jerusalem I will visit inshallah, but not as a pilgrimage, but to pray at the Dome of the Rock and Masjid Al Aqsa for my own personal fulfillment.
Peace
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I just want the Ummah to be one/strong again.
We dont have to Agree on Everything...but at least figure out a way to be unified again.
I believe in the 5xs day Ritual prayer, and am fine coexisting with those who dont.Malcolm X comes to mind when you say this. Who said we aren't or cant be unified? what is unity? if you believe you can't be unified you won't be unified. the brotherhood was unified by people wanting that unity, who wants that unity can be part of that unity with hands open, people who don't want it no problem.
we can be unified! nothing is stopping us except ourselves. we just think we can't be unified and come up with impossible excuses and the media just blows that picture out to incite more hatred, fear and excuses.
just think of people in iraq for example and sunni/shia factions and how media portrays things. definitely people in both creeds will cringe at the other because of atrocities that happened. even quranists will be biased against traditionalists. everyone is an individual before they're a community.
before it used to be the black man who was seen in negative light, today with the media it's the muslim. it's the middle eastern or a guy with the beard on the train and some lady or guy on the opposite side thinking could that be a terrorist?. it's the person who reads a resume and see's the name "mohammed" and thinks "ah muslim", it's the lady at the shop who talks english really slowly and loud because she thinks the lady in a veil can't speak english, or some loser yelling out "go back to your country"...
the prejudice of muslims is there and maybe not as big as previous injustices but it's there and it's only getting worse. the media is easy to get to masses, it's doing it's job by blowing things out of proportion, influencing a particular bias etc and it will continue to do what it's out to do.
If we let our bias, fears and anger get to us well, we'll prob be like this forever. but if we're wise enough to realise hey we all agree on quran and god, let us support each other. it don't matter if you pray the ritual 5 times a day or if i read quran twice. that's between you and god. At least we can unite on things we agree on.
anyway sorry for ranting.. it just makes me wonder how everyone wants unity yet seems to think it'll never be possible unless we all do everything exactly the same way and if we can accept different methods, why is unity an issue?
peace
