Abraham, Ismail, Hagar and safa wal marwa, qibla and ka'ba revisited

Cushan

If true it'd make sense.

It's a controversial idea, but I think Mecca was introduced by Muawiyah. Similar to how Latin Christians made the Vatican their HQ against the Eastern Orthodox Christians. There's just no reason for Muslim tradition to recall a more typical reverence of Biblical sites even while proclaiming Mecca to be the be all and end all. It may have been made into an Islamic shrine at some point (maybe the story of Mohammad's iconoclasm is true) but there's no reason for it to be so under-represented in the Quran if it was worthy of the honor Muslims pay it.

Bigmo

If true it'd make sense.

It's a controversial idea, but I think Mecca was introduced by Muawiyah. Similar to how Latin Christians made the Vatican their HQ against the Eastern Orthodox Christians. There's just no reason for Muslim tradition to recall a more typical reverence of Biblical sites even while proclaiming Mecca to be the be all and end all. It may have been made into an Islamic shrine at some point (maybe the story of Mohammad's iconoclasm is true) but there's no reason for it to be so under-represented in the Quran if it was worthy of the honor Muslims pay it.

BUt I wonder how accurate is that early mosque pointing towards south Palestine is? They all seem to agree that it north of Mecca and south of Jerusalem which puts it right on target of Beersheba.

The Ka'ba though is still a mystery. The Quran says Ismail and Abraham built a structure. Yet I don't have refernce to that in the OT yet. I think there were more than one house of worship Abraham built. But if these early mosque pointing north of Mecca but south of Jerusalem thing is true. Then we know finally know where the Qibla was.

The Quran itself says the people of the Book know its the truth when it talked about Qibla.

But the Ka'ba and the Masjid Haram is still a mystery to me.

Its amazing nobody is talking about this.

raginggaijin

BUt I wonder how accurate is that early mosque pointing towards south Palestine is? They all seem to agree that it north of Mecca and south of Jerusalem which puts it right on target of Beersheba.

The Ka'ba though is still a mystery. The Quran says Ismail and Abraham built a structure. Yet I don't have refernce to that in the OT yet. I think there were more than one house of worship Abraham built. But if these early mosque pointing north of Mecca but south of Jerusalem thing is true. Then we know finally know where the Qibla was.

The Quran itself says the people of the Book know its the truth when it talked about Qibla.

But the Ka'ba and the Masjid Haram is still a mystery to me.

Its amazing nobody is talking about this.

Why, when the Quran explains everything?

I have to start from the beginning. I reject all beliefs taught by man, and follow only what Allah reveals in the Quran.
Follow only what Allah reveals Surah 73, 299, 332, 312-6, 1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 5417,22,32,40, 8521-22, 961, 981-8

?And We have revealed to thee the Book with the truth, verifying that which is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their low desires, from the truth that has come to thee.? Surah 548

Hadith teaches to face the Kaaba in prayer. The previous Books teaches to face the Temple of Solomon (pbuh).
I have to study and research the original Arabic to discover for myself what is our qibilah.

Our qiblah is our direction; the direction we face to show whose teachings we follow. The qiblah is found in previous Books and other faiths, such as Judaism and Zoroastrian. They will not follow our direction, nor do we follow their direction. Many don?t even follow their own direction.

"And We did not make that which thou wouldst have to be the qiblah/direction but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels. And it was indeed a hard test except for those whom Allah has guided." Surah 2143

Moses and Aaron were told to turn their homes into places of worship; the word used is qiblah. Surah 1087
The Children of Israel were given the Temple of Solomon as their qiblah I Kings 822-44
Daniel (pbuh) faced Jerusalem Dan. 610

"...Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built! Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O Lord my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you today... Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place... When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, and then they pray towards this place, confess your name, and turn from their sin..." I Kings 822-44

We discover the first qiblah in Surah 2125 and Surah 396. The first qiblah of Abraham was the Bayt Al-Ibrahim.

"And when We made the House (Bayt) a resort for men and a security. And Take ye the Place (Station/Maqami) of Abraham for a place of prayer. And We enjoined Abraham and Ishmael, saying Purify My House (Bayt) for those who visit and those who abide for devotion and those who bow down, those who prostrated themselves." Surah 2125

People can not prostrate themselves inside the Kaaba (Cube), the Bayt Al-Haram,
They prostrate inside Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque, in Mecca.

The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
The Sacred Mosque.

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149

Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. The Kabah is called Bayt (2226), Ancient House/Bayt Atiq (2229) and we are told it is okay to go around the House. We do not go around Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah makes sure we know the Kaaba is known as the Sacred House in Surah 597. The Kaaba is a place of congregation and sacrifice. Surah 595
You cannot live in the Kaabh, but families live(d) in Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2196, 2225, 2791, 2967, 4824

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158

http//lmgtfy.com/?q=Safa+Marwa

We know the Sacred Mosque was around during Muhammad's time because it is written in the Quran "O you who believe, the idolators are surely unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Masjid Al-Haram) after this year of theirs." Surah 928

"Those to whom We have given the Book study it as it should be studied they are the ones that believe therein those who reject faith therein, the loss is their own." Surah 2121

Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba.

For those who say we are to face Jerusalem, I give these proofs on the contrary

The Farthest Mosque in Surah 171 is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The Al-Aqsa Mosque is located in Jerusalem. This small building now called 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' was called the Temple of Solomon by the Knights Templar during the Crusade, for the Temple perimeter still stands today. This small building was part of the entire structure.
Temple/Masjid Al-Aqsa/Jerusalem Surah 171,175-7,1760, 9107-109 ? Created ?in expectation of him who, in time past, warred against God and His Apostle.?

Did Isa (pbuh) say he came to abolish the law?
No, he came to fulfill it. So the teachings of the Old Testament/Tanakh are still part of their Covenant. The Jews and Christians have Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Temple of Solomon, as their qiblah.

Story of Exile
In the story of Ishmael (pbuh) and Hagar in the Torah, she and her son resided in the Valley of Tears in the Wilderness of Paran.
"And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as though goest toward Assyria and he died in the presence of all his brethren." Gen. 2518

"And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar." Gen. 201

http//www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030203.htm

Abraham and Ishmael were together, for it was during this resettlement that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out at the behest of Sarah.

Hagar and Ishmael are cast out in Gen. 21, and during their flight in the wilderness Hagar weeps when they run out of food and water.
God provides for them, and later Hagar finds Ishmael a wife from Egypt.
"And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt." Gen. 2119-21

Please take note that of these areas, only the wilderness of Paran is near Mecca.

We know this city is Mecca, and not Jerusalem, because Allah spoke of Mecca many times in the Quran. Surah 427, 2791, 3360, 901-2, 953

According to Scriptures, the first altar to God created by Abraham was in the land of Canaan.
"And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him. And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west and Hai on the east and there he builded an altar unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord." Gen. 127-8

It was a tent in the land of Canaan. The Canaanites, descendants of Ham, were declared forbidden to Isaac (pbuh), so he was given Rebekah through God's guidance. Even Isa (pbuh) called the Canaanites dogs in the New Testament. The name YHWH stems from the Canaanite deity, whose consort is Asherah/Ashteroth.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the deception of the Judaic Kabbalists, seeking to misguide those given the Truth. In order for the second-born to be given all birthrights, the first-born had to be discredited as ineligible. Even in the Bible/Torah/Tanakh the first-born has the birth rights. Duet. 2115-17

And let's not forget Hagar is never mentioned in the Quran.
Think about it.

Quiblah, Masjid Al-Haram, Kaaba, Masjid Al-Aqsa
Surah 2225-33,36,73 595,97, 2125,127,142-150, 396, 4827, 1437, 728,31,73, 91,17,19-22,28, 171,81, 3449, 1051, 287, 2191, 2196, 2217, 502, 834, 731, 907, 9107-108, 1707, 1821, 4825,27

Proof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdkqlVAMgkY

Study the Quran and be not dependent on my opinion. Allah knows best, and guides the believers.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.

Peace and blessings.

herbman

Peace raginggaijin,

here is one of your statement

We know this city is Mecca, and not Jerusalem, because Allah spoke of Mecca many times in the Quran. Surah 427, 2791, 3360, 901-2, 953

427
Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire

Mother of Cities is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

2791
For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this City, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belongs) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

3360
Truly if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

901-2
I do call to witness this City
And thou art a freeman of this City

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

953
And this City of security

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

Ok let's do a simple test!

I live in this City where I am now. Where do I live? Can you answer this simple question.

Peace

thegod

The link in the original post screams the question "Do Oldest Mosques Point to Beersheba?" And then it gives the following link as the source http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm

Below is the content from the BBC website

Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.

All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.

But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.

Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.

There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.

Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.

"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.

"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."

Not a single word about "the oldest mosque pointing towards Beersheba". Another example of how Bible-lovers will stoop to any depths to circulate false stories.

I remember I had posted about this months back, and chuckled at the hope that it was liable to rejuvenate in the heart of the Bibliolators.

thegod

The discrepancy was only realized after looking at the old mosques, some built more than 50 years ago, from atop the new skyscrapers being constructed in Islam's holiest city in western Saudi Arabia, the report said.

The link where I posted about it, and which gives the straight dope, not any Bibliolator's fancy

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598083.msg197048

raginggaijin