Abraham, Ismail, Hagar and safa wal marwa, qibla and ka'ba revisited

Bigmo

Genesis 21

14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

22And it came to pass at that time, that Abimelech and Phichol the chief captain of his host spake unto Abraham, saying, God is with thee in all that thou doest

23Now therefore swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me, nor with my son, nor with my son's son but according to the kindness that I have done unto thee, thou shalt do unto me, and to the land wherein thou hast sojourned.

24And Abraham said, I will swear.

25And Abraham reproved Abimelech because of a well of water, which Abimelech's servants had violently taken away.

26And Abimelech said, I wot not who hath done this thing; neither didst thou tell me, neither yet heard I of it, but to day.

27And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant.

28And Abraham set seven ewe lambs of the flock by themselves.

29And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves?

30And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well.

31Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them.

32Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.

33And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

34And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

Paran

1012 So the Israelites set out on their journeys from the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud settled in the wilderness of Paran.

133 So Moses sent them from the wilderness of Paran at the command of the Lord. All of them were leaders of the Israelites.

1326 They came back to Moses and Aaron and to the whole community of the Israelites in the wilderness of Paran at Kadesh. They reported to the whole community and showed the fruit of the land.

332 He saidThe Lord came from Sinai and revealed himself to Israel from Seir. He appeared in splendor from Mount Paran, and came forth with ten thousand holy ones. With his right hand he gave a fiery law to them.

Paran = "place of caverns"

wilderness area bounded on the north by Palestine, on the west by
the wilderness of Etham, on the south by the desert of Sinai, and
on the east by the valley of Arabah; the exodus was through this
area and probably all 18 stops were in this area

This is concerning Hagar and Ismail and the well. Sunnis refer to that as Safa wal Marwa. Clearly this has nothing to do with Mecca.

As far as Abraham and Beersheeba, there is no reference to Ismail in the OT so I can't make a case for that. However concerning Abraham and Beersheeba we have also from Genesis 20

1And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.

2And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

Gerar = "a lodging place"

a Philistine town south of Gaza, modern 'Umm'

Genesis 1019 and the borders of Canaan extended from Sidon all the way to Gerar as far as Gaza, and all the way to Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

So we know that Abraham's story was somehwere is South palestine. However it has no refernce to Ismail so we can not make any conclusion like we can concerning Safa and Marwa.

Now we have some historic info

The Wasit Mosque (built 705 A.D.) and the Kufa Mosque (built about 698 A.D.) align with a point in northwest Arabia, not with Mecca. According to Islamic tradition, Mohammad's household taught that Kufa Mosque was founded by Adam. Another tradition states that it was built by the angels in accordance with Gabriel's revelation to Prophet Muhammad. No other narrator of Islamic tradition has referred to this however.

The oldest mosque in Egypt is Fustat in Cairo. It dates to the reign of Qurra b. Shira between 709-714 A.D.

The oldest mosque in Saudi Arabia is Quba Mosque (shown right). It was rebuilt in the 1980's.

All mosques have a niche called a "Quiblah" which shows the direction of prayer. The older mosques are aligned with a point north of Mecca but south of Jerusalem. If early mosques were aligned toward northern Arabia or Jerusalem, a Qiblah facing Ka'bah represents a later development. Source BBC News

The Qiblah of the oldest mosques in Mecca, Iraq and Egypt do not align with Mecca. Instead they align with a point in northern Arabia. This has caused some Orientalists to speculate that they may be aligned with Jerusalem, but the calculations don't work out. The Qiblah of the earliest mosques face a point south of Jerusalem but north of Mecca.

This suggests the possibility that the older mosques are aligned with a shrine in the area of Beersheba. This is likely since Beersheba was Abraham's southern settlement, where he lived with his wife Keturah, whose six sons are the ancestors of Arabian tribes who dwell in the region of Mecca and the Southern Arabian Peninsula. Read more here.
Posted by Alice C. Linsley at 559 PM

http//jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2009/04/older-mosques-point-to-beersheba.html

So we have now some new historic info it seems indicating that the earliest mosque were pointing towards south Palestine. Exactly as the events of the Bible occurred.

This must have been after Qibla was changed. So since the Quran says East or West, we can assume that the initial Qibla was towards Mecca but changed as a trial. Clearly some of the Arabs may not have liked that. hence the refernce to the Quran about trial. This unease might have led the Arabs to return it again after Muhammad to Mecca where they wanted it.

As far as Ka'ba there is no reference I can find from the OT or history. But its hard to see how it could be Mecca since Abraham and Ismail were too far away from Mecca.

My two cents.

Cushan

If true it'd make sense.

It's a controversial idea, but I think Mecca was introduced by Muawiyah. Similar to how Latin Christians made the Vatican their HQ against the Eastern Orthodox Christians. There's just no reason for Muslim tradition to recall a more typical reverence of Biblical sites even while proclaiming Mecca to be the be all and end all. It may have been made into an Islamic shrine at some point (maybe the story of Mohammad's iconoclasm is true) but there's no reason for it to be so under-represented in the Quran if it was worthy of the honor Muslims pay it.

Bigmo

If true it'd make sense.

It's a controversial idea, but I think Mecca was introduced by Muawiyah. Similar to how Latin Christians made the Vatican their HQ against the Eastern Orthodox Christians. There's just no reason for Muslim tradition to recall a more typical reverence of Biblical sites even while proclaiming Mecca to be the be all and end all. It may have been made into an Islamic shrine at some point (maybe the story of Mohammad's iconoclasm is true) but there's no reason for it to be so under-represented in the Quran if it was worthy of the honor Muslims pay it.

BUt I wonder how accurate is that early mosque pointing towards south Palestine is? They all seem to agree that it north of Mecca and south of Jerusalem which puts it right on target of Beersheba.

The Ka'ba though is still a mystery. The Quran says Ismail and Abraham built a structure. Yet I don't have refernce to that in the OT yet. I think there were more than one house of worship Abraham built. But if these early mosque pointing north of Mecca but south of Jerusalem thing is true. Then we know finally know where the Qibla was.

The Quran itself says the people of the Book know its the truth when it talked about Qibla.

But the Ka'ba and the Masjid Haram is still a mystery to me.

Its amazing nobody is talking about this.

raginggaijin

BUt I wonder how accurate is that early mosque pointing towards south Palestine is? They all seem to agree that it north of Mecca and south of Jerusalem which puts it right on target of Beersheba.

The Ka'ba though is still a mystery. The Quran says Ismail and Abraham built a structure. Yet I don't have refernce to that in the OT yet. I think there were more than one house of worship Abraham built. But if these early mosque pointing north of Mecca but south of Jerusalem thing is true. Then we know finally know where the Qibla was.

The Quran itself says the people of the Book know its the truth when it talked about Qibla.

But the Ka'ba and the Masjid Haram is still a mystery to me.

Its amazing nobody is talking about this.

Why, when the Quran explains everything?

I have to start from the beginning. I reject all beliefs taught by man, and follow only what Allah reveals in the Quran.
Follow only what Allah reveals Surah 73, 299, 332, 312-6, 1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 5417,22,32,40, 8521-22, 961, 981-8

?And We have revealed to thee the Book with the truth, verifying that which is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their low desires, from the truth that has come to thee.? Surah 548

Hadith teaches to face the Kaaba in prayer. The previous Books teaches to face the Temple of Solomon (pbuh).
I have to study and research the original Arabic to discover for myself what is our qibilah.

Our qiblah is our direction; the direction we face to show whose teachings we follow. The qiblah is found in previous Books and other faiths, such as Judaism and Zoroastrian. They will not follow our direction, nor do we follow their direction. Many don?t even follow their own direction.

"And We did not make that which thou wouldst have to be the qiblah/direction but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels. And it was indeed a hard test except for those whom Allah has guided." Surah 2143

Moses and Aaron were told to turn their homes into places of worship; the word used is qiblah. Surah 1087
The Children of Israel were given the Temple of Solomon as their qiblah I Kings 822-44
Daniel (pbuh) faced Jerusalem Dan. 610

"...Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built! Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O Lord my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you today... Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place... When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, and then they pray towards this place, confess your name, and turn from their sin..." I Kings 822-44

We discover the first qiblah in Surah 2125 and Surah 396. The first qiblah of Abraham was the Bayt Al-Ibrahim.

"And when We made the House (Bayt) a resort for men and a security. And Take ye the Place (Station/Maqami) of Abraham for a place of prayer. And We enjoined Abraham and Ishmael, saying Purify My House (Bayt) for those who visit and those who abide for devotion and those who bow down, those who prostrated themselves." Surah 2125

People can not prostrate themselves inside the Kaaba (Cube), the Bayt Al-Haram,
They prostrate inside Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque, in Mecca.

The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
The Sacred Mosque.

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149

Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. The Kabah is called Bayt (2226), Ancient House/Bayt Atiq (2229) and we are told it is okay to go around the House. We do not go around Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah makes sure we know the Kaaba is known as the Sacred House in Surah 597. The Kaaba is a place of congregation and sacrifice. Surah 595
You cannot live in the Kaabh, but families live(d) in Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2196, 2225, 2791, 2967, 4824

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158

http//lmgtfy.com/?q=Safa+Marwa

We know the Sacred Mosque was around during Muhammad's time because it is written in the Quran "O you who believe, the idolators are surely unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Masjid Al-Haram) after this year of theirs." Surah 928

"Those to whom We have given the Book study it as it should be studied they are the ones that believe therein those who reject faith therein, the loss is their own." Surah 2121

Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba.

For those who say we are to face Jerusalem, I give these proofs on the contrary

The Farthest Mosque in Surah 171 is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The Al-Aqsa Mosque is located in Jerusalem. This small building now called 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' was called the Temple of Solomon by the Knights Templar during the Crusade, for the Temple perimeter still stands today. This small building was part of the entire structure.
Temple/Masjid Al-Aqsa/Jerusalem Surah 171,175-7,1760, 9107-109 ? Created ?in expectation of him who, in time past, warred against God and His Apostle.?

Did Isa (pbuh) say he came to abolish the law?
No, he came to fulfill it. So the teachings of the Old Testament/Tanakh are still part of their Covenant. The Jews and Christians have Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Temple of Solomon, as their qiblah.

Story of Exile
In the story of Ishmael (pbuh) and Hagar in the Torah, she and her son resided in the Valley of Tears in the Wilderness of Paran.
"And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as though goest toward Assyria and he died in the presence of all his brethren." Gen. 2518

"And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar." Gen. 201

http//www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030203.htm

Abraham and Ishmael were together, for it was during this resettlement that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out at the behest of Sarah.

Hagar and Ishmael are cast out in Gen. 21, and during their flight in the wilderness Hagar weeps when they run out of food and water.
God provides for them, and later Hagar finds Ishmael a wife from Egypt.
"And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt." Gen. 2119-21

Please take note that of these areas, only the wilderness of Paran is near Mecca.

We know this city is Mecca, and not Jerusalem, because Allah spoke of Mecca many times in the Quran. Surah 427, 2791, 3360, 901-2, 953

According to Scriptures, the first altar to God created by Abraham was in the land of Canaan.
"And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him. And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west and Hai on the east and there he builded an altar unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord." Gen. 127-8

It was a tent in the land of Canaan. The Canaanites, descendants of Ham, were declared forbidden to Isaac (pbuh), so he was given Rebekah through God's guidance. Even Isa (pbuh) called the Canaanites dogs in the New Testament. The name YHWH stems from the Canaanite deity, whose consort is Asherah/Ashteroth.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the deception of the Judaic Kabbalists, seeking to misguide those given the Truth. In order for the second-born to be given all birthrights, the first-born had to be discredited as ineligible. Even in the Bible/Torah/Tanakh the first-born has the birth rights. Duet. 2115-17

And let's not forget Hagar is never mentioned in the Quran.
Think about it.

Quiblah, Masjid Al-Haram, Kaaba, Masjid Al-Aqsa
Surah 2225-33,36,73 595,97, 2125,127,142-150, 396, 4827, 1437, 728,31,73, 91,17,19-22,28, 171,81, 3449, 1051, 287, 2191, 2196, 2217, 502, 834, 731, 907, 9107-108, 1707, 1821, 4825,27

Proof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdkqlVAMgkY

Study the Quran and be not dependent on my opinion. Allah knows best, and guides the believers.
May Allah continue to guide us to the Truth.

Peace and blessings.

herbman

Peace raginggaijin,

here is one of your statement

We know this city is Mecca, and not Jerusalem, because Allah spoke of Mecca many times in the Quran. Surah 427, 2791, 3360, 901-2, 953

427
Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire

Mother of Cities is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

2791
For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this City, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belongs) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

3360
Truly if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

901-2
I do call to witness this City
And thou art a freeman of this City

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

953
And this City of security

This City is Mecca? Can you explain, proof, argue, or give us more details?

Ok let's do a simple test!

I live in this City where I am now. Where do I live? Can you answer this simple question.

Peace

thegod

The link in the original post screams the question "Do Oldest Mosques Point to Beersheba?" And then it gives the following link as the source http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm

Below is the content from the BBC website

Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.

All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.

But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.

Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.

There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.

Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.

"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.

"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."

Not a single word about "the oldest mosque pointing towards Beersheba". Another example of how Bible-lovers will stoop to any depths to circulate false stories.

I remember I had posted about this months back, and chuckled at the hope that it was liable to rejuvenate in the heart of the Bibliolators.

thegod

The discrepancy was only realized after looking at the old mosques, some built more than 50 years ago, from atop the new skyscrapers being constructed in Islam's holiest city in western Saudi Arabia, the report said.

The link where I posted about it, and which gives the straight dope, not any Bibliolator's fancy

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598083.msg197048

raginggaijin