Do you know you?re right? how do you know?
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Peace All,
We know the arguments of Quran is fully detailed and that people sort hadith for conformities or/and sunnah. In ways, i feel they have more unity i.e. there is more perceived agreeability and they use that against us.
So the thought here is well, Quran is logical and not in need of hadith. however it leaves a person to interpret things in vast ways, it creates factions of opinions (hadith does this too, I know that but people are limited by scholars they?re ijtihad/self-study is squished to conform).
To be honest when I started reading here I felt uncomfortable with the range of opinions people had. I guess I wasn?t used to accepting ?that?s ok in religion? in certain aspects such opinions are futile, in other cases there is uncertainty (which seems to be common), in others a matter of differing interpretation of words which ends in diverted conclusions.
I?ve come to accept that not everything is strictly one way and it?s ?ok? that some things are different. And basically the vast opinions help in eliminating truth from falsehood. Off course every opinion need to be justifiable and work with the principles of Quran. Not just ?oh wow I finally understood this? and then realise it?s contradictory with other verses, upholding that thought would be stupid.. Sometimes we look at things in isolation without considering the whole picture
So I think how does one regulate that they follow, an opinion/understanding without letting desires/wishes/opinions overcome their conclusion. Is there an actual system to do this? Is the system purely on logic? Or is the key in our hands to fight it out..
How can we give confidence to sunni?s that yes Quran is the only thing to uphold and this is how it is interpreted? And this is a just way because it fights against our wishes/desire which is a better system than scholarly interpretation, as it is relied heavily on justifying hadith which is interpreted based on opinion..
Or do we simply argue, their methodology is based on opinion and so is ours, the difference is they have a scholar attribute so they?re respected and revered so, it?s their logic against ours?
For me I think it?s hard to completely fight wishes/thoughts/desire/comfort because we all have predispositions whether you claim you do or you don?t. society we live in has shaped our thoughts off course not completely but it does have influences.
Can we expect people to take us seriously? especially when you get bombarded with a million whys before you can even justify your approach or even belief.. One of my goals is to gain a sound amount of knowledge on verses so it can instantly be responded to. On the internet it?s easy to browse the Quran but I realised it?s better to have in my memory. although when I used that approach with my family a while ago.. my dad said ?she thinks she can interpret Quran how she wants?. So it doesn?t always go to well.
I know the PRL is a great tool and it has helped me and others in learning Quran by understanding words without the socially accepted attributes to it, take hijab for example.
I guess it would be difficult to understand or have ?complete? clarity of what is our desire what is right etc. but what ways do you use to be sure that you?re right? could we give confidence in our ways to Sunni?s so they don?t feel Quran is taken as a joke to interpret how we want?
Peace
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Salam,
320 If they argue with you (O Messenger!), tell them, ?I have submitted to God; I and those who follow me.? Say to the People of the scripture, and to those who claim to have no scripture, ?Would you submit (to God)?? If they submit, then they have been guided but if they turn away, then your duty is only to convey the message. God is Seer of His servants.
The duty is conveying the truth, not convincing people...
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Peace arista
Yes you?re right but think of it this way, if you can remove one fear or uncertainty which is a deciding factor for their position, wouldn?t you rather help that person than just be like each to their own?
if you care about certain people (take family for e.g.) why wouldn?t you want them upholding the same ways as you?
Give up without trying because it?s not your role?
Besides, maybe discussion will help us with our research not necessarily help to guide others to our ways.
Peace
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Salam, Peace
I cant speak for anyone with a complete certainty, but we have all grown up (muslims since birth) with a strong system of beliefs impressioned on us by our parents about Islam (The majority of parents would have had 0 bad intentions, but were teaching us what they believed was the only correct way to salvation). This strong system of belief was impressioned on us with either if you don't follow this, you won't go to heaven, or you will end up in hell. Also, for a lot of us, I wouldn't be surprised if questioning our belief system was also one of those aspects that immediately led to hell. Therefore I would not be surprised at the amount of guilt many of us go through while trying to determine what Islam means to us.
The way, I see it that if I am having doubts about certain aspects of the belief system I have been taught, I can suppress those thoughts all I want, but the fact is that God knows all of my thoughts, and if it is a "sin", I have already committed it. Also suppressing doubts will do nothing but magnify them. So why not put our doubts out in the open, and discuss them, so we can strengthen in our faith rather than weaken.
I also don't believe there is one narrow path to God. There are multiple paths that intersect many times, and may even overlap at times. While many strive to do good for the sole reason for attaining heaven, that is the path they have chosen (a very mainstream view of many Muslims), and I will leave it to God to judge their actions. Personally, I want to not lie or steal, care about others, treat them the way I want to be treated etc etc, because God gave us the choice to be the kind of person we want to be, and I want to be the best possible in his eyes. If God also rewards us with heaven for our good deeds, then indeed all praise belongs to him.
Anyways, I admire you Sarah for continuing to question despite the guilt you may be going through. However, I ask you your reasons for why you want to convince Sunnis that Quran only is the only thing to uphold. I ask because I feel that if we are to convince the Sunnis of Quran only, then logically we will have to convince the Quran aloners who may hold nine different opinions on a certain aspect, why ours is the right one. They are part and parcel of one to me. And to me there is just is not one right way.
However, I may have misunderstood you, and you are saying that if you say to a Sunni, you are a Quran aloner, then they want to know why you reject certain aspects of Sunnism. Well all you can do is tell them the reasons, and it will either be good enough or not good enough depending on the person, nothing you can do about it. All you can say is "Please respect my beliefs the way I respect yours". At the same time you can continue to ask God for the strength to help you become the person you really want to be. And the Quran is our guide to determine how to become that person.
I have no clue if I answered your question or not. Sometimes even I feel that God must be angry at me for questioning this, or not doing that a certain way. Then I pray and ask for his guidance, and tell him all the reasons for my thinking this or that, even though he already knows whats in my heart. And thats what it comes down to right. God knows your intention, more than other person does.
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Peace Kukumber,
No your answer is sufficient, whatever you have to say is fine )
What really led me to this was a discussion I had online with someone they were telling me that islam is only logically with hadith and thus hadith plays a vital role in islam yet at the same time they agree hadith creates factions and disunity and there are hadiths which seem odd, but quranists cant agree with much not even salat some say this, some say that. so they concluded sunnism is right, because they agree on things..
So they have the hand of scholars to placate their concerns with nonsensical translations of hadith. That gives comfort, we dont have a board, we dont have a qualified scholar that we can discuss things with, well just say read Quran. Not that reading Quran is bad! Reading and reflecting on Quran is good but all I am saying is our responses dont seem to give comfort in the ones who seek answers. And maybe thats not our role to play and maybe I shouldnt care and just focus on learning things myself.
Alhamdulillah Im happy where I am at the moment.. I believe in the Quran, I dont doubt my stance. I have much knowledge to gain, its an everlasting journey. I dont like the limited knowledge I have but thats my own fault and that can improve with time and effort God willing. When I read into certain topics and study I do gain in affirmative that this is going towards good and that I am going towards the right way, so my stance is always reassured alhamdulillah
I don't feel guilt in what you are saying the only guilty i feel is actually suppressing my truth from my family, I feel guilty for not openly sharing my beliefs I feel guilty that I am scared of their reaction. I dont feel guilty for questioning not even the oddest things that would be seen as shameful or wrong. We learn when we question. when we get spoon fed we just accept even if we hate it, we might even spit it out but cos were adults we just chew it until we learn we can feed ourselves by getting off our own backsides..
Maybe I wasnt clear in what I was asking. Basically I am asking How do you go about learning Quran? What is your method?
For example I will read a verse in Arabic, if I dont quite understand it I will read an English translation. If Im not sure of the translation links with the arabic Ill check out a word for word translation. Or I might just look up the word via PRL or a dictionary. I will usually look up words in prl because I may have an understanding of the word but I might be bringing in a contemporary understanding not classical Arabic so I try to deter off my bias. Im not as well versed in Arabic as I wish I could be, so when grammar comes to play I could probably easily make a mistake without even realising.
So anyway by reading, looking up words etc I will have a better understanding of that verse. If its a particular word I may look at all word occurrences in the Quran to better understand the word/concept. And youre right when we hold an opinion varying to other quranists if we think its right then yes wed need to justify it. Sometimes its harder than you think, what if you can justify two ways?
Sometimes I might bring a thought on the forum, I might question and give an answer but if no one answers or responds Im left with until proven otherwise, Im probably right or wrong or what if I am totally wrong, no one has looked much into this, so Im just as lost as them.
When we ask people please respect my beliefs as I respect yours when its people its no big deal when its family (my family) it is a big deal. From someone they view as a devout muslim to just come up to be portrayed (in their view) as kafir/kafira is huge. How can you expect someone to respect your views if in their beliefs youre lower than low, a threat to their beliefs and probably better dead?
My brother said to me people who just claim to follow quran, follow it for their own hawa(wishes/whims/desires) obviously I dont believe that. Why did he say that? because quranist dont follow hadith, hadith places a whole lot of limitations and rules. It conforms them in ways Quran does not. And off course in Quran there are rules and limitations along with this qurans style is unique with idioms and allegorical verses, with this I think people can interpret things unjustly and thus people can follow their hawa, myself included.
How can we support each other to stick away from our hawa? How do we prove to others we do this or that it is possible?
Peace
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peace Sarah, all,
AQ tells us majority/numbers is irrelevant. To claim otherwise would be an "appeal to popularity" fallacy.
...tells us following of ancestors blindly is not wise. To claim otherwise would be an "appeal to authority/belief/tradition" fallacy.
...shows no examples of majority being in agreement with a revelation/messenger/prophet.
...shows no examples of communities remaining on the right path post revelation/messenger/prophet.What should all this tell us? To be ultra cautious, so we dont repeat history! To be proactive in terms of verification, seeking truth, applying thought/logic etc and not blindly follow anything... because the consequences could be huge.
Thus, statements like ?people who just claim to follow quran, follow it for their own hawa(wishes/whims/desires)?, are not only an "ad hominen" fallacy, but show a complete disregard for what AQ is blatantly trying to tell us. Perhaps if one did a study on "hawa" in AQ they might realise it is always contrasted to following divine revelation / God's Word/system. Thus, anything else could be "hawa", including man-made religious law or religious leaders. In fact, it could even be argued this is a very common form of "hawa" in AQ!
A degree of flexibility within a system is good and a mercy, but of course there are limits. You may be aware that one of the arguments put forward how traditional hadith gained prominence/legitimacy was because of this very reason, i.e. the need for definition/rigidity. We can see this being played out in this forum even today, although it should be said many/most long term forum members hold similar views, and do not differ much in application.
Many may have an opinion on global warming, but a tiny % of people have actually did a reasonable level of research on it to have what could be deemed a valid or evidenced view. Same with Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc and the books they claim to follow. So, of course there will be more unity when the majority are uninformed and can be led by a select few.
It is ironic to think that it is perhaps the other way around, that actually majority of Muslims are following their desires etc. because AQ is built in such a way that it will narrow down the meaning/guidance in such a way that only one view is possible, or if more than one, it will provide the limits. For example, AQ smashes the marrying pre-puberty tradition/belief (hence almost all commentators not using AQ to justify this view), thus if someone goes against this, they would be following their "hawa". There are many examples like this. So, it is not black/white, i.e. it cannot be said that they follow "hawa" and we do not follow "hawa", or vice versa.
Can we expect people to take us seriously?
We already are! The movement is growing, no doubt about it.
Take note from a non-violent revolutionary who defeated the world's strongest empire "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win" ~Gandhi.But let's not get carried away ;D onto answering your Qs
How do you go about learning Quran? What is your method?
How can we support each other to stick away from our hawa? How do we prove to others we do this or that it is possible?AQ talks loads and loads about seeking knowledge, methodology etc. In fact, so much, it would take one weeks to read and study all occurrences. This book talks a lot about certain aspects, in a formal manner. Also see this for a brief.
The Quran's own internal mechanism/recommendations no discrepancies, cross-reference, internal logic/examples, use of science/history/archeology/biology, life experience, apply justice/purity/righteousness, reality/observation (i.e. does what it say map to reality), archetypal characters, practicality, verification/research/study, mutual consultation, consulting multiple sources, following what is best etc.
Does every Traditional Muslim commentator follow this approach? No. Does every forum member here follow this approach? No.
It cannot be proven to another that one is sincere, the proof is in the tasting of the pudding, as the saying goes.
ps - didn't intend for this post to be long
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Salam Wakas,
What should all this tell us? To be ultra cautious, so we dont repeat history! To be proactive in terms of verification, seeking truth, applying thought/logic etc and not blindly follow anything... because the consequences could be huge.
Yep consequences are huge. Why don?t they verify, because of numbers ?appeal to popularity? comfort. Why not even ask "which hadith?"
Perhaps if one did a study on "hawa" in AQ they might realise it is always contrasted to following divine revelation / God's Word/system. Thus, anything else could be "hawa", including man-made religious law or religious leaders. In fact, it could even be argued this is a very common form of "hawa" in AQ!
Good point I never looked at the word and the contrast. *adds to the ?to do list?. I?ll post it here in future GW.. just for reference
It is ironic to think that it is perhaps the other way around, that actually majority of Muslims are following their desires etc. because AQ is built in such a way that it will narrow down the meaning/guidance in such a way that only one view is possible, or if more than one, it will provide the limits. For example, AQ smashes the marrying pre-puberty tradition/belief (hence almost all commentators not using AQ to justify this view), thus if someone goes against this, they would be following their "hawa". There are many examples like this. So, it is not black/white, i.e. it cannot be said that they follow "hawa" and we do not follow "hawa", or vice versa.
I think part of the problem is people?s limited knowledge which leaves gaps in thoughts. It could lead us to upholding the view (with the gap) therefore possibly upholding hawa.
We already are! The movement is growing, no doubt about it.
Take note from a non-violent revolutionary who defeated the world's strongest empire "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win" ~Gandhi.I think they take us as a serious threat! Rather, a serious potential threat. Not as, seriously trying to adhere to guidance.
AQ talks loads and loads about seeking knowledge, methodology etc. In fact, so much, it would take one weeks to read and study all occurrences. This book talks a lot about certain aspects, in a formal manner. Also see this for a brief.
Weeks, months and longer? sounds interesting (why are the useful books expensive!). If I could promote the use of logic as supported by Quran.. that would be useful but then they?d need to study logic. Or have an inclination to it..
Does every Traditional Muslim commentator follow this approach? No. Does every forum member here follow this approach? No.It?s wrong for me to expect people to follow all the same approach but sunnis seem to think they do.. (follow the same approach). But I think following the same approach would lead to unity don?t you think? i.e. would lead to similar conclusions
It cannot be proven to another that one is sincere, the proof is in the tasting of the pudding, as the saying goes.
True.
ps - didn't intend for this post to be long P
Np so you don't feel so bad i'll make mine longer haha
A Quick story.. just happened today. This brother I know told me ?try refuting this? it was a comment on another forum, an aussie sunni one. Someone was asking how hadith has affected their lives and how well they know them and do they know it as well as they know quran.(BTW paraphrasing)
the bro I know asked ?what about those who reject hadiths??
And someone said ?that?s nonsense? and mentioned some verses
Another?how do they pray.. wait do they even pray?Anyway I wasn?t going to reply because I?d be trapping myself to ignorance and emotions and become the live bait. But i did reply to the bro i know..
I told him it?s such a common question ?how do they pray? the question is how do they/you pray? Most of them will pray a specific way 5 times a day right, but why like that? Most likely because they adopt what their forefathers have taught them and basically they accept it blindly, they will say hadiths.. ok which hadiths?!
He answered mostly from their parents, so I said yep blindly following without knowing why. Yet he kept saying I don?t make sense and why don?t I tell them that. All I could think was I don?t wanna be the bait for the fish to bite. but I?ll see how far it goes then i'll see if it's worth posting. i just thought if people can question why they do certain practices or the origins/reference/links to their practices it might get them thinking wider..
Anyway i then said "ok if I refute them all, would you believe?" he said ?no? so I think why even bother? most have that attitude "i'm right no matter what".. Time wasters.
Peace )
