Decoding 69:17
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Messengers means and are meant to convey the Message which comprises of Kalam/spoken words. Messengers are only from Angels and Men from human beings .
I've never read such thing in quran that malaika rehearsed to prophets, on the contrary quran tells us that gibrael descended it on prophet's mind 297.
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There is no contradictory statement in Qur'aan. Angels cannot be considered simultaneously as "Personalities" and electromagnetic energy or force etc. What I meant was that if Angels can come as Human Men then the presumptive thought of calling them as "forces like various energies" would be wrong.
I don't think there is any contradiction as there is no mention of any human personality being an angel in quran.
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Here G.A. Pervez seems to be carried away by the traditonalists thought who say 79/5 and 51/4 refer to Angels, naively ignoring that the Active participles in both these two verses are feminine while Malaika/Angels are always referred and mentioned as Masculine and obviously a masculine is not like the feminine according to verdict of Allah.
I don't speak for G.A Pervez, I posted that because what you said about him was not true, as we do know now that Pervez did consider malaika as natural forces. )
Can these forces take the physical appearance of Men visible to human sight? If not then "Angels" can't be described as natural forces, as was perhaps thought and advocated by G.A Pervez.
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Their is another type of "Forces/Troops"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.41b.gif
Resultantly Allah bestowed upon him His tranquility and helped him with such forces which you people do not see.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/009.%20At%20Tauba.%20A.htm
and these " other type of forces/troops" are not called malaika? Well, read 4130 & 812
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I don't speak for G.A Pervez, I posted that because what you said about him was not true, as we do know now that Pervez did consider malaika as natural forces. )
I could not understand it. I had said this "If not then "Angels" can't be described as natural forces, as was perhaps thought and advocated by G.A Pervez".
How can you say that what I said about him was not true when you have yourself given a quote from G.A Pervez and admitted "we do know now that Pervez did consider malaika as natural forces" -
I could not understand it. I had said this "If not then "Angels" can't be described as natural forces, as was perhaps thought and advocated by G.A Pervez".
How can you say that what I said about him was not true when you have yourself given a quote from G.A Pervez and admitted "we do know now that Pervez did consider malaika as natural forces"ah, my bad, I'm sorry I misunderstood you. )
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This is about Jibrael .how do you know that?
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ah, my bad, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
welcome. I knew you misunderstood. I only wanted to keep record straight for reason of use of word "not true". 90% of Pervez's work in Urdu I have read critically. But since I was not quoting him specifically I used the word "perhaps" to absolve myself of tracing reference. Thanks.
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Salam Wakas,
Can these forces take the physical appearance of Men visible to human sight? If not then "Angels" can't be described as natural forces, as was perhaps thought and advocated by G.A Pervez.
peace,
Yes, they could, because we do not know about all functions of all malaika. If there is something in AQ saying otherwise, then I will re-consider. -
peace,
Yes, they could, because we do not know about all functions of all malaika. If there is something in AQ saying otherwise, then I will re-consider.Peace Wakas,
O kaym But where does AQ says this type of thing
From my studies "malaika" which is commonly translated as "angels" is better rendered as forces in control, or nature's forces/laws, e.g. F=ma, E=mc2,
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Peace everyone
would anyone shed some light on the following verse
Khalifa
The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).
Yusuf Ali
And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.
Shakir
And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and above ) I them eight shall bear on that day your Lord's power.
Sher Ali
And the angels will be standing on its borders, and above them on that day eight angels will bear the Throne of thy Lord.how would you make sense of the information given in that verse?
No unless i know what is arsh(throne). It could mean the universe, it could mean our galaxy or even the solar system. It is after a while our world since the other galaxies are off limits for us. It takes two million light years between us and the next galaxy, Andromeda. Plus the Quran says that there are many angels so why only eight? evn the Bible says angels are in the millions of millions in numbers. so why only eight? And the verse also says n that day, meaning it could be the throne on the day of judgement and not always or the complete throne. It all depends whether the Quran is talking from God's point of view or from our point of view.
Anyways the verse is concerning the metaphysical world which is beyond our scope of imagination.
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peace,
But where does AQ says this type of thing
See my article on DaRaBa, part 1, section 6 and 16 for example. Alternatively, any verse discussing malaika. It's fairly clear they have a functional role, like various equations perform a function, e.g. F=ma.
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It's fairly clear they have a functional role, like various equations perform a function, e.g. F=ma.
Previously you said "From my studies "malaika" which is commonly translated as "angels" is better rendered as forces in control, or nature's forces/laws, e.g. F=ma, E=mc2, thus it would mean eight forces are responsible/undertaking the action described."
Just to clarify then, are you saying that malaika have a functional role in the same way as equations in physics? Or that malaika are these equations (which represent observed relationships in the physical sciences)? The former is interesting, but the latter seems completely nonsensical. Looking in Wehr and Lane I can't find any reference to "natural laws" under Meem Lam Kaf, although I do find "angels" mentioned.
This interpretation, of naturasl laws, seems totally eisegetical for we are told we must believe in the malaika (2177, 2285). Upon closer scrutiny we see that these verses are talking about articles of faith which must be literally believed, and there doesn't seem to be any room for any of the categories to be allegorical or figurative. We are told to believe in God, the last day, the book (al kitabi) and the prophets, all of which are literal and non figurative. How is it then that malaika is to be a figure of speech for equations of "natural laws"?
Are you saying that you understand 2177 to be saying "it is righteousness...to believe in the laws of nature"? Or simply that it is righteousness to believe that there are laws of nature. The latter seems unlikely considering the definite article is attached in 2177 "almalaikati". If the former, then this brings up another difficulty man's understanding of the physical laws has changed, and been corrected, over the centuries. People 1400 years ago would not have had the same understanding of the physical world, and thus for them to believe (as they are commanded) in "almalaikati" as the natural laws would likely entail believing in something false. Our Lord would not ask us to believe in something false.
Throughout scripture "malaika" are spoken of as conscious beings, and not as equations. How would you translate 2161, 318, 380 if malaika are natural laws? There are of course other verses we can discuss, but I don't see anyway that malaika can be an allegory/figure of speech for "natural laws". If we must believe in malaika then they must be literal, and must be understood as they are described, unless you can find another category of faith that must be believed that is in fact clearly allegorical. I don't think one exists though, because to ask us to believe in solely an allegory makes absolutely no sense. Allegories may be used to describe aspects of a literal truth which we cannot yet understand, such as Heaven and Hell, which are literally true, but whose descriptions one can take figuratively as we have not yet experienced them. That's why "natural laws" as an allegory for controllers (malaika) is nonsensical, it is totally unclear what it is that one must believe. Is it the existence of "laws of nature"? Is it the "laws of nature"? Nothing is clarified because whenever malaika are described as sentient beings, then this too is considered to be an "allegory"! Moreover, malaika are implied as being part of "al ghayb" (see 2210 and 343, as well as other stories of earlier prophets, in which malaika are involved), yet the "laws of nature" are certainly within the realm human perception.
Peace
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peace Hoppean,
Firstly, I did not exclusively limit malaika to "nature's laws" (i.e. only those found in our world). I just mentioned that as an explanatory note. The general term would be "controlling forces or forces in control" (not only in our world). I'm not sure to what extent this impacts the rest of what you said.
Secondly, the root MLK is full of words such as to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority etc. I have not specifically looked for "natural laws".
Re al kitab
I am not sure how you define this term, or what you think it refers to. Can you clarify?I am not sure if I understood your use of the word "allegorical" and "figurative". Can you provide me with a clear and specific example for me to consider.
Re 2177
I dont see an obvious problem in "it is righteousness to believe in the controlling forces... etc". Interestingly, this would make more sense than mystical angels, as how does believing in them make one righteous?People 1400 years ago would not have had the same understanding of the physical world, and thus for them to believe (as they are commanded) in "almalaikati" as the natural laws would likely entail believing in something false. Our Lord would not ask us to believe in something false.
Their understanding of them is what is false, not that they are false.
yet the "laws of nature" are certainly within the realm human perception.
Their effects can be observed and components, but not the actual controlling force, as far as I'm aware. In any case, Mazhar referenced malaika being visible in one example, thus I am not sure how concrete I would make claims like all malaika are al ghayb etc.
Re 2161
How does all of mankind condemn/curse those referenced? As for my view, see Shabbir's QXP explanatory note for example.Re 318
Since all controlling forces originate from one unifying source, and all slot in to fit into the big picture, of course they in recognition of one source. Perhaps if the laws of physics were ever-changing then perhaps a recognition of one unifying source could be disputed.Re 380
Many people take controlling forces as lords, .e.g sun/moon/stars/rain/fire/etc. -
@mountaineer anyway here is G A Pervez's view of Malaika
<< Malaika - malik - (alif-lam-kaf or meem-lam-kaf)
Parwez's entry is both presumptuous and deceptive. He writes that they are "are given the responsibility to discharge certain duties," "are used as messengers," "direct affairs," "govern events by the Command," and "constantly record human actions".
He finally concludes, "Malaika are the heavenly forces which are operating in the universe according to the charter of duties assigned to them by Allah."It looks like a duck. It even walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. But it is not a duck. By using "Force" instead of "Angel" Parwez attempts to impress that he has unveiled a hitherto undiscovered representation of "Malaika".
Somewhere in between he moves on to "subjective forces having psychological effect," and Malaika are no longer "forces" but "positive forces".
He rounds off his lopsided exposition without a word on "Malik" (or "Mulk" or "Maalik". Too bad he didn't try to add a little note on 230 (his translation is way off the mark, anyway).
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@wakas Many people take controlling forces as lords, .e.g sun/moon/stars/rain/fire/etc.
These are controlling forces aka "malaika" according to you?
I am aware of their depiction along your lines in Greek and Hindu mythology, but any reference from the Quran where they have been termed "malaika" would be fine.
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I thought it would be fun to see how Parwez and Shabbir have gone about 1231, seeing that it contains the M word. I start with Parvez
(31) When Azizs wife heard their malicious talk, she invited them and got a cushioned banquet ready for them giving each of them knife. Then she asked Joseph to come in. When they saw him they were dazed by his beauty. (The women tried their best to entice Joseph but were unsuccessful.) Thereupon they wounded their hands (so that they might accuse Joseph of attacking them) although they knew fully well how pure and strong his character was.
He has avoided the inconvenience by not making a direct reference to the word, but has made a note of Joseph's dazing beauty. (Wonder where he got the tidbits from).
Now comes Shabbir. He denounces the fabrication of Joseph's dazing beauty (while being privy to some undisclosed info himself), but has rendered the M word as "angel," nonetheless
1231 When she heard their gossip, she invited them, and prepared comfortable couches for them, and they schemed. She gave a knife to each of the women. Then, she called Joseph, Come out unto them! And when they saw him they flattered him and cut their hands. They exclaimed in their flattery, Good Lord! This is no mortal man! This is but an angel!
Pretty forceless translations.
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Are you saying that you understand 2177 to be saying "it is righteousness...to believe in the laws of nature"? Or simply that it is righteousness to believe that there are laws of nature. The latter seems unlikely considering the definite article is attached in 2177 "almalaikati". If the former, then this brings up another difficulty man's understanding of the physical laws has changed, and been corrected, over the centuries. People 1400 years ago would not have had the same understanding of the physical world, and thus for them to believe (as they are commanded) in "almalaikati" as the natural laws would likely entail believing in something false. Our Lord would not ask us to believe in something false.
It is theoretically possible that it is righteousness to believe in the laws of nature, i.e. something akin to the former definition in your quote above. I am not saying this is necessarily the correct interpretation as malaikat furthers merit study; simply saying it is possible. The fact that man's understanding of the physical laws has changed is irrelevant. The righteousness is perhaps in believing in the system itself. Similarly, can we eschew science as a whole simply because our views of what is and is not scientific change over the years? Clearly not, we still believe in the validity of the system (the scientific method) itself.
And to be clear, these "laws of nature" need not only be physical laws; they can also be the 'spiritual' laws the creator has imbued the universe with. In this sense, the interpretation of this verse makes perfect sense. The system of requital (of each person being paid their dues, positive or negative, contingent upon their actions/thoughts throughout life) is what is at stake here, and in a sense, is what the entirety of the quran is about. It is righteousness to believe in this system. And how can we preclude cognitive dissonance vis a vis our belief in this system? Simple, by believing there is (a) a creator who (b) set up a system of requital (symbolized by the Last Day) which function according to (c) the malaikat, the controlling forces/laws/constants, the existence and descriptions of which are encapsulated in the (d) scriptures, which are delivered by (e) prophets. In other words, 2177.
The rest of the verse then goes on to state what one must do to apply these aforementioned beliefs, i.e. how to walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. Peace.
