Where is the First Focal Point's place mentioned in the Quran?
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Peace all,
If we do what we say, then we will have to accept that Jeruslem is the place of Hajj. If we follow the Quran, Torah and Injeel, then the case will be closed; however, some people claim they are believers, but they reject the Judgement of their Lord that are very clear in His Books, and instead, they seek Evil Judgement.
Here what God said about them
460 Did you not see those who claimed they believed in what was sent down to you and what was sent before you? They wanted to seek judgment using evil, while they were ordered to reject it. It is the devil who wants to lead them far astray.
461 And if they are told ?Come to what God has sent down and to the messenger,? you see the hypocrites turning away from you strongly.
462 Why then, when disaster befalls them for what their hands have delivered, do they come to you swearing by God that they only wanted to do good and reconcile?
463 These are a people whom God knows what is in their hearts, so turn away from them and advise them, and say to them in their souls a clear saying. -
Peace ayman,
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.If you agree that the first focal point was a physical point from which they turned. The question is this, they turned to where? To no direction or a different direction?
THINK ABOUT IT.ZUBAIRUS
Peace ayman,
I am still awaiting your response to my request.
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace Zubairus,
If you agree that the first focal point was a physical point from which they turned. The question is this, they turned to where? To no direction or a different direction?
THINK ABOUT IT.I am still awaiting your response to my request.
They turned away from a physical direction to the non-physical direction towards the truth. Being on the direction towards the truth from your lord is being on the straight path. Please read 2142 to see the physical direction of the foolish people in contrast to the straight path of those who are guided.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Zubairus,
They turned away from a physical direction to the non-physical direction towards the truth. Being on the direction towards the truth from your lord is being on the straight path. Please read 2142 to see the physical direction of the foolish people in contrast to the straight path of those who are guided.
Peace,
Ayman
There was no physical direction ever - so they concucted a physicality and then simply made them turn to another physicality.
In the quran , 2142 isn't talking about turning from a physical direction at all but saying It isn't righteousnes to "DO" "to show" or to try and keep it from being known - your goodness, but righteousness is simply to believe /trust in Allah e.t.c
Havn't you seen a How a Muslim keeps a beard and is a five timer and probably wears a white prayer hat just to be seen to be mighty righteous - "does to show"
There arn't any two wests and two easts............its all a mayham!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599632.msg234890#msg234890
peace
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Peace Zubairus,
They turned away from a physical direction to the non-physical direction towards the truth. Being on the direction towards the truth from your lord is being on the straight path. Please read 2142 to see the physical direction of the foolish people in contrast to the straight path of those who are guided.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I think it is a simple logic that one can only turn from a physical direction to another physical direction not to a non-physical direction.
2142 The foolish from among the people will say ?What has turned
them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God
are the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a
straight path.?.Those reffered to as foolish were those that will say 'what has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?' Here the merciful lord said they should be told that ' To God are the east and the west,He guides whomsoever He wishes to the straight path.'
THINK ABOUT IT.
ZUBAIRUS
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Salam,
If the place is not mentioned in Quran, then, should we accept that not everything revealed to the prophet are written in the Quran?
This question has been hunting me for a while and I realy want your feedback.
True, not everything God revealed to the prophet is mentioned in the Quran (like what was the secret he told his wives 663, or, what was the sign that Joseph saw that stopped him from lusting after the woman 1224). Therefore, what is recorded in the Qur'an is only the information we need to know, what is not there is of no significance to us.
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Peace Wakas,
Ayman earlier stated that the first focal point from which they turned was physical.That was why I asked him to where do they turned. He said to a non physical direction which seems not logical to me.
What do you think?
You may refer to the previous posts for the detail.
ZUBAIRUS
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Peace wakas,
When we talk of direction as physical, it could be north,south,west,east among others.The possibilities are that a person turns from one of the directions to another or stops facing any of them.
How possible/logical/reasonable it is that a person turn from a physical direction to non-physical direction?
It really calls for explanation brother wakas.
THINK ABOUT IT.
ZUBAIRUS
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I dont think a Non-Physical Direct is Logical at ALL.
As far as I know...When do you ever talk about facing a Place/Direction when its non-physical?
Its trying to take a well known thing and making it abstract/vauge enough to fit whatever you want.Direction has always been followed up by a place. (unless Directions meaning rules).
But just in the context.... Why would Allah say "Face the Direction"....then "The Direction was Changed"....then "All of the people know the Direction"...
if its not talking about a Specific Location?The Followers of the Non-Physical Direction say it mean basically "Follow Your Lords Direction" (a non-physical thing) basically meaning...Do what Allah Commands.
However, thats obvious, and has already been said numerous times in the Quran. It wouldnt make sense to 1st say that specifically....and 2nd say it again except this time making it abstract and confusing so people wont understand it.What would be the need of repeating the same thing in a totally different way?
Im for Physical.
and I Dont know if its Jerusalam or Mecca. -
Peace all
2143
the large sized word, Quibla, is translated by free minds as Focal Point.
I agree with you; thus, based on your conclusion
The first Focal Point (Qublia) direction was revealed only to Mohamed but It is not important for us to know about, and therefore, it was never a part of Quran. However, the second Qubila, the restricted Masjed, is part of Quran because it is important for us to know.Peace BelH,
You are making a huge assumption here, you are assuming that the first Qiblah was decreed by God. There is nothing in the Quran to base this conclusion off of. The first Qiblah could have only been based off of traditions, or it could have been decreed by Muhammad without divine inspiration.
The basis for my reasoning is that in 1064 it says that "God does not change His words". Therefor, I don't think the primary direction of the Qiblah was "God's words".
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The Qibla just means the direction you face... So it's not a physical place, just a direction which is based on a physical place..
Edip explains the Qibla really well in the footnote for his translation
http//quranix.net/#RTQ37
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Peace Zubairus,
When we talk of direction as physical, it could be north,south,west,east among others.The possibilities are that a person turns from one of the directions to another or stops facing any of them.
But 2142 clearly tells us that the foolish people ask "what turned them away from the (physical) direction that they were on?"
So the foolish people saw them turning away from a physical direction (since they can see it then it was physical and also the mention of the east and the west makes it clear that it was physical). Had they turned to another physical direction then, as you said, they would have asked "What turned them from one direction to another?"
How possible/logical/reasonable it is that a person turn from a physical direction to non-physical direction?
It really calls for explanation brother wakas.
THINK ABOUT IT.As I explained the question of the foolish people makes it clear that those who had faith turned away from a physical direction and not "from-to" another physical direction. As for being possible, I did it and I know many others who did it, so it is certainly possible as I can tell you from my own experience. In fact, everyone does it whether they like it or not when they set certain goals in their lives.
As for being logical, what is not logical is people fantacising that they face some buidling or stone cube when it is below the horizon when in fact they are facing outer space due to the curvature of the earth.
As for being reasonable, it is unreasonable to believe that facing a certain physical direction differentiates the hypocrites from the true believers. Hypocrites have no problem doing superficial but meaningless physical tokens of loyalty in the same way that a traitor or a spy has no problem saluting the flag of the country that he is scheming against. Hypocrites thrive on such superficial meaningless acts that only serve to show off. On the other hand true believers set their direction to be on the straight path as clear from 2142. So unless you claim that the straight path is a physical highway leading to some shrine or stone then the true direction that differentiates the hypocrites from those who have faith can't be physical. In fact, the physical direction would be important to the hypocrites and they would cling to it because all they know is the superficial physical showing off. So what differentiates the hypocrites from the believers is that the hypocrites would stay on the physical direction and make a big deal of it, while the believers know that the god is everywhere and they believe in the truth from him and when they set their direction towards it, they will be on the straight path.
Peace,
Ayman
