Intensive nouns of quality
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Peace Mazhar,
I merely said that this word (e.g. Rahman), nowhere exists. If you think it exists in any writing other than "weights" even in poetry please mention that. Otherwise we need not coin a hypothetical noun that does not exist. The Proper Noun that exists is Ar Rahman, which has no dual, plural and cannot be feminized. It is Unique and has no parallel since it is The Name of the Sustainer Lord of the Worlds/all that exists.
Proper names are not translated. It is impossible for "rhmn" to be a proper name since the god translates it from whatever ancient language Abraham spoke into Arabic as we see in 1945 where Abraham said
"I fear you would be struck with the wrath of the almighty."
Do you think that you know better than the teacher of the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Mazhar,
Proper names are not translated. It is impossible for "rhmn" to be a proper name since the god translates it from whatever ancient language Abraham spoke into Arabic as we see in 1945 where Abraham said
"I fear you would be struck with the wrath of the almighty."
Do you think that you know better than the teacher of the great reading?
Peace,
AymanPeace.
Pl read once again your own post and see where and how you contradict yourself. Neither Iebra'heim translated the proper name in his language while talking to father nor Allah translates the proper names. Both used Ar Rahman.
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Pl read once again your own post and see where and how you contradict yourself. Neither Iebra'heim translated the proper name in his language while talking to father nor Allah translates the proper names. Both used Ar Rahman.
There was no Arabic at the time of Abraham so there was no Arabic word "al-rahman". How would Ibrahim use a word from a future language that wasn't even invented yet?? Compare how the god translated his attribute into Arabic "al-rahman" while he didn't translate the proper name Ibrahim into Arabic from whatever it meant in Canaanite or whatever ancient language Ibrahim spoke.
Peace,
Ayman
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There was no Arabic at the time of Abraham so there was no Arabic word "al-rahman". How would Ibrahim use a word from a future language that wasn't even invented yet?? Compare how the god translated his attribute into Arabic "al-rahman" while he didn't translate the proper name Ibrahim into Arabic from whatever it meant in Canaanite or whatever ancient language Ibrahim spoke.
Peace,
Ayman
If it is not a pure conjectural statement in the manner of throwing words in the air, what is the evidence that Arabic language did not exist at that point in time?
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@ayman The word "rhim" was borrowed from the Northwestern Semitic language Hebrew where "rhm" means mercy.
On the other hand, the word "rhman" (actually spelled rhmn" in the great reading without a Matres Lectionis) was borowed from the Southern Semitic language Sabaic.
That's a pretty unusual claim, given that the root 'r-h-m' exists very much in the Sabaean dialect.
Talking about 'r-h-m-n-n' on the Smithsonian webpage, they have merely translated it as 'god'; whereas the team at Islamic-awareness have gone with 'Merciful,' and have put up a reference to a dictionary of the Sabaean dialect.
That said, ever since I read Maria's (?) article I have considered towards 'Almighty' as its connotation.
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@mazhar The Proper Noun that exists is Ar Rahman, which has no dual, plural and cannot be feminized. It is Unique and has no parallel since it is The Name of the Sustainer Lord of the Worlds/all that exists.
That's a pretty interesting view.
A son is always mentioned by the Personal Name of the One who is either his father or has adopted him or by the Title held by that person/personality. According to Qur'aan people said that Allah has adopted a son, or Ar Rahmand has adopted a son. No where it is referred that some Jabbar, Qahar, Rahim, Saboor has adopted a son. So Ar Rahman is the distinct Personal Name about Whom people falsly conjecture He has adopted a son.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.116%20.gif
And they said; "Allah has adopted a son".http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.26.gif
And they said; "Ar'Reh'maan has adopted a son".
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.26a.gif
Infinite Glory is for Him/His pleasure is the focus of all effort; He is above such needs/support/ weakness.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/021.%20B%20Al%20Anmbia.htm
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Peace Mazhar,
If it is not a pure conjectural statement in the manner of throwing words in the air, what is the evidence that Arabic language did not exist at that point in time?
There is plenty of evidence. For example, in reality Arabic borrows heavily from other languages (thus making those languages older), even non-semitic ones such as Greek and Middle Persian. Also, the fact is that the earliest Arabic Inscription (Igl bn Hfa'm), dates from the 1st century BCE. Based on the evidence, as far as Semitic languages go, Arabic is a relatively modern language. Arabic descended from other ANA (Ancient North Arabian) languages such as Safaitic and Thamudic.
On the other hand, your only argument is asking for negative proof, which is a fallacious nonsensical argument. The burden of proof is on you to prove a positive. Please prove that the Arabic language existed at the time of Abraham or at the time of Adam or whatever nonsense you dream of. Only fools who idolize Arabic believe such wild fantasies. You are blindly getting all this nonsense from irrational sectarians who believe that the Arabic language is eternal and uncreated.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman The word "rhim" was borrowed from the Northwestern Semitic language Hebrew where "rhm" means mercy.
On the other hand, the word "rhman" (actually spelled rhmn" in the great reading without a Matres Lectionis) was borowed from the Southern Semitic language Sabaic.
That's a pretty unusual claim, given that the root 'r-h-m' exists very much in the Sabaean dialect.
Talking about 'r-h-m-n-n' on the Smithsonian webpage, they have merely translated it as 'god'; whereas the team at Islamic-awareness have gone with 'Merciful,' and have put up a reference to a dictionary of the Sabaean dialect.
That said, ever since I read Maria's (?) article I have considered towards 'Almighty' as its connotation.Firstly, Sabaean is a completely different language to Hebrew where the meaning of mercy comes from. So it is normal that the root in Sabaean could have a different meaning as is the case here.
Secondly, if you read between the lines of what Islamic Awareness said and read the actual transcription of the Greek provided in PERF558 and on coins in Latin (76AH/695CE - 98AH/716CE), you will see the formula as "in the name of god" in Greek and in Latin on coins "in nomine Dei misericordis" (in the name of god the merciful). So the word "al-rhmn" was completely left out of the bilingual texts. This indicates that unlike "rhim", there was some confusion in Northern Arabia about what the word "rhmn" means. This is not surprising, given its Southern Arabian origin.
So your intuition that it means "the almighty" is correct and this can be clearly seen from the context in the Sabaean inscriptions as well as in the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman Firstly, Sabaean is a completely different language to Hebrew where the meaning of mercy comes from. So it is normal that the root in Sabaean could have a different meaning as is the case here.
Sabaean and Arabic belong to the group of Southwestern Semitic languages, whereas Hebrew belongs to the class of Northwestern Semitic languages.
Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings.
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Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings.
Unless you can show a Sabaean inscription or a passage of the great reading where the word "rhman" fits better as having to do with mercy as opposed to might then it is you who have been wrongly informed. In all the contexts, whether in inscriptions or in the great reading, "rahman" clearly has nothing to do with mercy and the meaning of "almighty" fits much better.
Peace,
Ayman
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Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
You erroneously claimed that 'r-h-m' has different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean, while the fact remains that this root denotes 'mercy' in both the languages.
And this followed your earlier unusual claim.
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Name just 10 words in Qur'aan you think they are borrowed, excluding personal names.
It is not what I think. It is a fact. Here are 10 words quickly off the top of my head (there are many many more)
Persian
Greek
Persian
Syriac
Syriac
Persian
Persian
Greek
Persian
Persian
Persian
Persian
etc.Oops, I accidently gave 12. I will stop here but there are many more.
Peace,
Ayman
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Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
You erroneously claimed that 'r-h-m' has different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean, while the fact remains that this root denotes 'mercy' in both the languages.
And this followed your earlier unusual claim.There is no such root as 'r-h-m-n'. So you are making a comparison where one side doesn't exist. The Sabaic root "r-h-m" from which Sabaic "rahman" is derived is clearly not exactly the same as the root "r-h-m" in Hebrew even though they sound the same since "rahman" carries a different connotation in Sabaic that has nothing to do with the Hebrew root. In my previous post I asked you a specific question that may help you prove your point (that is if you have a point).
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
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I know you will not find it unless you invent it, so here's a little something to guide you
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... wtrhm / ly / kl / lm / rhmnn / rhmk mr / t
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... and have mercy on all the world, O Merciful, you are Lord.
Unless somebody is going to pop up and read that as "and have might on all the word"
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
There are many examples even in Arabic where a root doesn't necessarily denote a certain common meaning. For example, from the root "n-f-q" in Arabic we get words that denote spending but also denote hypocrisy, which are completely unrelated meanings. The root "r-h-m" as a common semitic root denotes mercy but in Sabaic the word "rahman" denotes "might". So we could look at this in two ways
- There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
- There is one root "r-h-m" but "rahman" is a local Sabaic vocabulary that is grouped under this root for convenience in the same way that "hypocrisy" is grouped under "n-f-q" ("spend" in Arabic for convenience but it has nothing to do with the meaning of the root.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".You know that this was not what I was responding to. I was responding to this statement of yours where you contrasted the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n' (and it was you who tossed it in)
Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)The root is just a convenient classification device. So any discussion on meaning has to be on the meaning of the words classified under that root. The word "rahman", which is within this classification, can be taken as having a connotation of "might". I would be happy to reconsider if we can resolve the following
- The many instances both in the great reading and in the epigraphic record where the power or the wrath of the "rahman" is invoked. Such usage would be highly unusual since invoking the wrath or power of the merciful doesn't convey the intention effectively.
- The opposite is not true. In other words, hoping for the mercy of the almighty can convey the intention effectively.
- The redundancy of saying "in the name of the god the merciful, the merciful" if both "rahman" and "rahim" had the same connotation of mercy.
Peace,
Ayman