Intensive nouns of quality
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@mazhar The Proper Noun that exists is Ar Rahman, which has no dual, plural and cannot be feminized. It is Unique and has no parallel since it is The Name of the Sustainer Lord of the Worlds/all that exists.
That's a pretty interesting view.
A son is always mentioned by the Personal Name of the One who is either his father or has adopted him or by the Title held by that person/personality. According to Qur'aan people said that Allah has adopted a son, or Ar Rahmand has adopted a son. No where it is referred that some Jabbar, Qahar, Rahim, Saboor has adopted a son. So Ar Rahman is the distinct Personal Name about Whom people falsly conjecture He has adopted a son.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.116%20.gif
And they said; "Allah has adopted a son".http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.26.gif
And they said; "Ar'Reh'maan has adopted a son".
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.26a.gif
Infinite Glory is for Him/His pleasure is the focus of all effort; He is above such needs/support/ weakness.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/021.%20B%20Al%20Anmbia.htm
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Peace Mazhar,
If it is not a pure conjectural statement in the manner of throwing words in the air, what is the evidence that Arabic language did not exist at that point in time?
There is plenty of evidence. For example, in reality Arabic borrows heavily from other languages (thus making those languages older), even non-semitic ones such as Greek and Middle Persian. Also, the fact is that the earliest Arabic Inscription (Igl bn Hfa'm), dates from the 1st century BCE. Based on the evidence, as far as Semitic languages go, Arabic is a relatively modern language. Arabic descended from other ANA (Ancient North Arabian) languages such as Safaitic and Thamudic.
On the other hand, your only argument is asking for negative proof, which is a fallacious nonsensical argument. The burden of proof is on you to prove a positive. Please prove that the Arabic language existed at the time of Abraham or at the time of Adam or whatever nonsense you dream of. Only fools who idolize Arabic believe such wild fantasies. You are blindly getting all this nonsense from irrational sectarians who believe that the Arabic language is eternal and uncreated.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman The word "rhim" was borrowed from the Northwestern Semitic language Hebrew where "rhm" means mercy.
On the other hand, the word "rhman" (actually spelled rhmn" in the great reading without a Matres Lectionis) was borowed from the Southern Semitic language Sabaic.
That's a pretty unusual claim, given that the root 'r-h-m' exists very much in the Sabaean dialect.
Talking about 'r-h-m-n-n' on the Smithsonian webpage, they have merely translated it as 'god'; whereas the team at Islamic-awareness have gone with 'Merciful,' and have put up a reference to a dictionary of the Sabaean dialect.
That said, ever since I read Maria's (?) article I have considered towards 'Almighty' as its connotation.Firstly, Sabaean is a completely different language to Hebrew where the meaning of mercy comes from. So it is normal that the root in Sabaean could have a different meaning as is the case here.
Secondly, if you read between the lines of what Islamic Awareness said and read the actual transcription of the Greek provided in PERF558 and on coins in Latin (76AH/695CE - 98AH/716CE), you will see the formula as "in the name of god" in Greek and in Latin on coins "in nomine Dei misericordis" (in the name of god the merciful). So the word "al-rhmn" was completely left out of the bilingual texts. This indicates that unlike "rhim", there was some confusion in Northern Arabia about what the word "rhmn" means. This is not surprising, given its Southern Arabian origin.
So your intuition that it means "the almighty" is correct and this can be clearly seen from the context in the Sabaean inscriptions as well as in the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman Firstly, Sabaean is a completely different language to Hebrew where the meaning of mercy comes from. So it is normal that the root in Sabaean could have a different meaning as is the case here.
Sabaean and Arabic belong to the group of Southwestern Semitic languages, whereas Hebrew belongs to the class of Northwestern Semitic languages.
Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings.
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Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings.
Unless you can show a Sabaean inscription or a passage of the great reading where the word "rhman" fits better as having to do with mercy as opposed to might then it is you who have been wrongly informed. In all the contexts, whether in inscriptions or in the great reading, "rahman" clearly has nothing to do with mercy and the meaning of "almighty" fits much better.
Peace,
Ayman
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Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
You erroneously claimed that 'r-h-m' has different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean, while the fact remains that this root denotes 'mercy' in both the languages.
And this followed your earlier unusual claim.
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Name just 10 words in Qur'aan you think they are borrowed, excluding personal names.
It is not what I think. It is a fact. Here are 10 words quickly off the top of my head (there are many many more)
Persian
Greek
Persian
Syriac
Syriac
Persian
Persian
Greek
Persian
Persian
Persian
Persian
etc.Oops, I accidently gave 12. I will stop here but there are many more.
Peace,
Ayman
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Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
You erroneously claimed that 'r-h-m' has different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean, while the fact remains that this root denotes 'mercy' in both the languages.
And this followed your earlier unusual claim.There is no such root as 'r-h-m-n'. So you are making a comparison where one side doesn't exist. The Sabaic root "r-h-m" from which Sabaic "rahman" is derived is clearly not exactly the same as the root "r-h-m" in Hebrew even though they sound the same since "rahman" carries a different connotation in Sabaic that has nothing to do with the Hebrew root. In my previous post I asked you a specific question that may help you prove your point (that is if you have a point).
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
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I know you will not find it unless you invent it, so here's a little something to guide you
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... wtrhm / ly / kl / lm / rhmnn / rhmk mr / t
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... and have mercy on all the world, O Merciful, you are Lord.
Unless somebody is going to pop up and read that as "and have might on all the word"
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
There are many examples even in Arabic where a root doesn't necessarily denote a certain common meaning. For example, from the root "n-f-q" in Arabic we get words that denote spending but also denote hypocrisy, which are completely unrelated meanings. The root "r-h-m" as a common semitic root denotes mercy but in Sabaic the word "rahman" denotes "might". So we could look at this in two ways
- There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
- There is one root "r-h-m" but "rahman" is a local Sabaic vocabulary that is grouped under this root for convenience in the same way that "hypocrisy" is grouped under "n-f-q" ("spend" in Arabic for convenience but it has nothing to do with the meaning of the root.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".You know that this was not what I was responding to. I was responding to this statement of yours where you contrasted the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n' (and it was you who tossed it in)
Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)The root is just a convenient classification device. So any discussion on meaning has to be on the meaning of the words classified under that root. The word "rahman", which is within this classification, can be taken as having a connotation of "might". I would be happy to reconsider if we can resolve the following
- The many instances both in the great reading and in the epigraphic record where the power or the wrath of the "rahman" is invoked. Such usage would be highly unusual since invoking the wrath or power of the merciful doesn't convey the intention effectively.
- The opposite is not true. In other words, hoping for the mercy of the almighty can convey the intention effectively.
- The redundancy of saying "in the name of the god the merciful, the merciful" if both "rahman" and "rahim" had the same connotation of mercy.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman I was responding to this statement of yours where you contrasted the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n' (and it was you who tossed it in)
Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?Ha ha ha! I used the word 'r-h-m' and you tossed in "rhman". So I asked you "Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?"
I was asking you how you managed to read "rhman" when I said 'r-h-m'. Asked you to see the difference, didn't "contrast" it. Another false lead.
I provided inscriptional evidence to establish 'r-h-m' as mercy in Sabaean, in response to your unqualified claim that '"rhm" means 'mercy' in Hebrew but the Sabaean root has a different meaning.
So let's cut to the chase and see if you have any inscriptional evidence. If you do not, then we might try the roundabout way.
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- The many instances both in the great reading and in the epigraphic record where the power or the wrath of the "rahman" is invoked. Such usage would be highly unusual since invoking the wrath or power of the merciful doesn't convey the intention effectively.
This again is conjectural statement thrown in air. No one on Earth, except stupid Firaon, likes to be addressed by Might and Power. Everyone addresses Allah as, "O our Sustainer Lord" Allah or Ar Rahman, and then narrates that He has absolute power and Dominance over each and every thing. No one addresses Him, as "O You the Al Mighty".
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It is not what I think. It is a fact. Here are 10 words quickly off the top of my head (there are many many more)
Persian
Greek
Persian
Syriac
Syriac
Persian
Persian
Greek
Persian
Persian
Persian
Persian
etc.Oops, I accidently gave 12. I will stop here but there are many more.
Peace,
Ayman
If this is the understanding of borrowed words then I can list hundreds. Had you ever listened to what I have been suggesting that the Arabic is the richest language and all other languages of the world taken together do not match it. The beauty of Arabic Language Roots is that they incorporate all ground facts relating both to matter and life.
Take the first word of your list which you, because some people said so, thought to be of persian origin. Persia never made that they could originate this word. This is translated as "Brocade". It was exported by China to Arabia through the famous Silk Route and Arabic called it made from Root " ", and perhaps adds reflexive connotation.
And dear do you know what Brocade is. It was indication of status, associated with luxury and opulence, and garments kept especially for ceremonial events. And notice its use in Qur'aan to find the occassion of party, friends and their famlies meeting.
Now keeping in mind the Arabic Root and the word with its connotations, let me state what Brocade is. It is a woven fabric that is self patterened. It is a satin weave and the patterns has a reversible positive/negative image. It relies on the play of light to give dimension to the pattern which is subtle and rich at the same time. One side of the cloth always has a darker face than the other. The pattern is created when light falls on the fabric. The light reflects off areas of visible arranged fabric warp threads which look shiny against visible weft threads which look dull within the weave.
Can you name any language of the world, the words of which have the built in real facts and true depiction of that thing which it refers?
Interestingly its colour is mentioned at some place as green and Marks and Spencer had sometime back introduced green brocade dress for ladies.
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Peace Mazhar,
If this is the understanding of borrowed words then I can list hundreds.
There are indeed hundreds of foreign words in the great reading that were borrowed from older languages.
Had you ever listened to what I have been suggesting that the Arabic is the richest language and all other languages of the world taken together do not match it. The beauty of Arabic Language Roots is that they incorporate all ground facts relating both to matter and life.
I hear all sorts of nonsense, this doesn't mean that I agree with it. Arabic is an average human language. What you are saying can be said about any Semitic language since they all have the root system. If Arabic is so rich, why do its speakers have to borrow words like " " from English?
Take the first word of your list which you, because some people said so, thought to be of persian origin. Persia never made that they could originate this word. This is translated as "Brocade". It was exported by China to Arabia through the famous Silk Route and Arabic called it made from Root " ", and perhaps adds reflexive connotation.
And dear do you know what Brocade is. It was indication of status, associated with luxury and opulence, and garments kept especially for ceremonial events. And notice its use in Qur'aan to find the occassion of party, friends and their famlies meeting.
Now keeping in mind the Arabic Root and the word with its connotations, let me state what Brocade is. It is a woven fabric that is self patterened. It is a satin weave and the patterns has a reversible positive/negative image. It relies on the play of light to give dimension to the pattern which is subtle and rich at the same time. One side of the cloth always has a darker face than the other. The pattern is created when light falls on the fabric. The light reflects off areas of visible arranged fabric warp threads which look shiny against visible weft threads which look dull within the weave.What you are saying is patently false because it is ungrammatical. You don't seem able to tell the difference between a verb and a noun. Your desperate and indefensible attempt to derive it from " " results in a verb not a noun (which would be or ). I think that this plus the fact that its Persian origin is readily obvious is why even the staunchest Arab nationalists and the early linguists readily concede that it is a loan word from Persian (See Al-Siyuti, Al-Jawahri, Al-Kindi, Ibn Al-Athir).
Your foolish logic is like saying that " " is derived from an Arabic root " " (meaning somthing like "stare" and is of the form " " and this because people spend hours borwsing (staring) at the internet!!
Can you name any language of the world, the words of which have the built in real facts and true depiction of that thing which it refers?
No (this includes Arabic). I can however name one person in the world who doesn't know the difference between a verb and a noun.
Interestingly its colour is mentioned at some place as green and Marks and Spencer had sometime back introduced green brocade dress for ladies.
Instead of wasting time in irrelevant info try to focus on providing a point by point response to my posts on this thread instead of skipping over what you clearly have no answer to (which is the majority of what I said). As you can see, even for the one thing that you were able to reply to, you disregarded all logic and grammar and went on an imaginary Arab nationalistic ego trip. Just admit that you were wrong and that Arabic indeed has foreign loan words like all human languages and stop idolizing Arabic.
Peace,
Ayman
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After having read what you said may I tell you one thing more which is common between Root "Barq" and Brocade. The effect of lightening on sight is that immediately after flash there is a dark shade. And again read about Brocade that its peculiar feature which is created with great skill by some brainy Chinese is exactly what is the effect of Barq. Iron shackles put around ones brain don't let enter any evidence into it. However I enjoyed the rescue taken in old exegeses.