Intensive nouns of quality
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Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
You erroneously claimed that 'r-h-m' has different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean, while the fact remains that this root denotes 'mercy' in both the languages.
And this followed your earlier unusual claim.There is no such root as 'r-h-m-n'. So you are making a comparison where one side doesn't exist. The Sabaic root "r-h-m" from which Sabaic "rahman" is derived is clearly not exactly the same as the root "r-h-m" in Hebrew even though they sound the same since "rahman" carries a different connotation in Sabaic that has nothing to do with the Hebrew root. In my previous post I asked you a specific question that may help you prove your point (that is if you have a point).
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
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I know you will not find it unless you invent it, so here's a little something to guide you
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... wtrhm / ly / kl / lm / rhmnn / rhmk mr / t
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... and have mercy on all the world, O Merciful, you are Lord.
Unless somebody is going to pop up and read that as "and have might on all the word"
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I don't see myself having said 'r-h-m-n' is a root; so don't put up a straw man.
Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
If your claim is that 'r-h-m' does not denote mercy in Sabaean, then put up something to support it. As for 'r-h-m' as mercy in the Sabaean dialect, check the entry for the root 'r-h-m' in the Sabaic dictionary on the Islamic-awareness page
There are many examples even in Arabic where a root doesn't necessarily denote a certain common meaning. For example, from the root "n-f-q" in Arabic we get words that denote spending but also denote hypocrisy, which are completely unrelated meanings. The root "r-h-m" as a common semitic root denotes mercy but in Sabaic the word "rahman" denotes "might". So we could look at this in two ways
- There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
- There is one root "r-h-m" but "rahman" is a local Sabaic vocabulary that is grouped under this root for convenience in the same way that "hypocrisy" is grouped under "n-f-q" ("spend" in Arabic for convenience but it has nothing to do with the meaning of the root.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)
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@ayman Then why did you contrast the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n'?
Again, a false leading question; what I said was "Again, 'r-h-m' means 'mercy' in the Sabaean dialect itself. So, you have been wrongly informed that the case here is of different meanings."
In reply to this, you erroneously tossed in the word "rhman".You know that this was not what I was responding to. I was responding to this statement of yours where you contrasted the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n' (and it was you who tossed it in)
Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?
@ 1. There are two separate roots "r-h-m", one common Semitic for "mercy" and one specifically Sabaic for "might" and both are part of the Sabaic vocabulary.
Now you have realized that the root 'r-h-m' is common to many Semitic languages (including the Sothwestern Arabic and Sabaean) and denotes 'mercy'; and there is no case of different connotations in Hebrew and Sabaean. As such, any claim of Arabic having borrowed it specifically from a Northwestern Semitic language is unusual.
The 'mercy' connotation of 'r-h-m' in Sabaic established through inscriptional evidence, can you provide evidence for your claim that it also connotates 'might' in Sabaean?
(I remember having used the 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' examples to demonstrate the fallacy of mindlessly gnawing at roots. That's a nice refreshment)The root is just a convenient classification device. So any discussion on meaning has to be on the meaning of the words classified under that root. The word "rahman", which is within this classification, can be taken as having a connotation of "might". I would be happy to reconsider if we can resolve the following
- The many instances both in the great reading and in the epigraphic record where the power or the wrath of the "rahman" is invoked. Such usage would be highly unusual since invoking the wrath or power of the merciful doesn't convey the intention effectively.
- The opposite is not true. In other words, hoping for the mercy of the almighty can convey the intention effectively.
- The redundancy of saying "in the name of the god the merciful, the merciful" if both "rahman" and "rahim" had the same connotation of mercy.
Peace,
Ayman
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@ayman I was responding to this statement of yours where you contrasted the root 'r-h-m' with 'r-h-m-n' (and it was you who tossed it in)
Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?Ha ha ha! I used the word 'r-h-m' and you tossed in "rhman". So I asked you "Do you see a difference between 'r-h-m' and 'r-h-m-n'?"
I was asking you how you managed to read "rhman" when I said 'r-h-m'. Asked you to see the difference, didn't "contrast" it. Another false lead.
I provided inscriptional evidence to establish 'r-h-m' as mercy in Sabaean, in response to your unqualified claim that '"rhm" means 'mercy' in Hebrew but the Sabaean root has a different meaning.
So let's cut to the chase and see if you have any inscriptional evidence. If you do not, then we might try the roundabout way.
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- The many instances both in the great reading and in the epigraphic record where the power or the wrath of the "rahman" is invoked. Such usage would be highly unusual since invoking the wrath or power of the merciful doesn't convey the intention effectively.
This again is conjectural statement thrown in air. No one on Earth, except stupid Firaon, likes to be addressed by Might and Power. Everyone addresses Allah as, "O our Sustainer Lord" Allah or Ar Rahman, and then narrates that He has absolute power and Dominance over each and every thing. No one addresses Him, as "O You the Al Mighty".
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It is not what I think. It is a fact. Here are 10 words quickly off the top of my head (there are many many more)
Persian
Greek
Persian
Syriac
Syriac
Persian
Persian
Greek
Persian
Persian
Persian
Persian
etc.Oops, I accidently gave 12. I will stop here but there are many more.
Peace,
Ayman
If this is the understanding of borrowed words then I can list hundreds. Had you ever listened to what I have been suggesting that the Arabic is the richest language and all other languages of the world taken together do not match it. The beauty of Arabic Language Roots is that they incorporate all ground facts relating both to matter and life.
Take the first word of your list which you, because some people said so, thought to be of persian origin. Persia never made that they could originate this word. This is translated as "Brocade". It was exported by China to Arabia through the famous Silk Route and Arabic called it made from Root " ", and perhaps adds reflexive connotation.
And dear do you know what Brocade is. It was indication of status, associated with luxury and opulence, and garments kept especially for ceremonial events. And notice its use in Qur'aan to find the occassion of party, friends and their famlies meeting.
Now keeping in mind the Arabic Root and the word with its connotations, let me state what Brocade is. It is a woven fabric that is self patterened. It is a satin weave and the patterns has a reversible positive/negative image. It relies on the play of light to give dimension to the pattern which is subtle and rich at the same time. One side of the cloth always has a darker face than the other. The pattern is created when light falls on the fabric. The light reflects off areas of visible arranged fabric warp threads which look shiny against visible weft threads which look dull within the weave.
Can you name any language of the world, the words of which have the built in real facts and true depiction of that thing which it refers?
Interestingly its colour is mentioned at some place as green and Marks and Spencer had sometime back introduced green brocade dress for ladies.
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Peace Mazhar,
If this is the understanding of borrowed words then I can list hundreds.
There are indeed hundreds of foreign words in the great reading that were borrowed from older languages.
Had you ever listened to what I have been suggesting that the Arabic is the richest language and all other languages of the world taken together do not match it. The beauty of Arabic Language Roots is that they incorporate all ground facts relating both to matter and life.
I hear all sorts of nonsense, this doesn't mean that I agree with it. Arabic is an average human language. What you are saying can be said about any Semitic language since they all have the root system. If Arabic is so rich, why do its speakers have to borrow words like " " from English?
Take the first word of your list which you, because some people said so, thought to be of persian origin. Persia never made that they could originate this word. This is translated as "Brocade". It was exported by China to Arabia through the famous Silk Route and Arabic called it made from Root " ", and perhaps adds reflexive connotation.
And dear do you know what Brocade is. It was indication of status, associated with luxury and opulence, and garments kept especially for ceremonial events. And notice its use in Qur'aan to find the occassion of party, friends and their famlies meeting.
Now keeping in mind the Arabic Root and the word with its connotations, let me state what Brocade is. It is a woven fabric that is self patterened. It is a satin weave and the patterns has a reversible positive/negative image. It relies on the play of light to give dimension to the pattern which is subtle and rich at the same time. One side of the cloth always has a darker face than the other. The pattern is created when light falls on the fabric. The light reflects off areas of visible arranged fabric warp threads which look shiny against visible weft threads which look dull within the weave.What you are saying is patently false because it is ungrammatical. You don't seem able to tell the difference between a verb and a noun. Your desperate and indefensible attempt to derive it from " " results in a verb not a noun (which would be or ). I think that this plus the fact that its Persian origin is readily obvious is why even the staunchest Arab nationalists and the early linguists readily concede that it is a loan word from Persian (See Al-Siyuti, Al-Jawahri, Al-Kindi, Ibn Al-Athir).
Your foolish logic is like saying that " " is derived from an Arabic root " " (meaning somthing like "stare" and is of the form " " and this because people spend hours borwsing (staring) at the internet!!
Can you name any language of the world, the words of which have the built in real facts and true depiction of that thing which it refers?
No (this includes Arabic). I can however name one person in the world who doesn't know the difference between a verb and a noun.
Interestingly its colour is mentioned at some place as green and Marks and Spencer had sometime back introduced green brocade dress for ladies.
Instead of wasting time in irrelevant info try to focus on providing a point by point response to my posts on this thread instead of skipping over what you clearly have no answer to (which is the majority of what I said). As you can see, even for the one thing that you were able to reply to, you disregarded all logic and grammar and went on an imaginary Arab nationalistic ego trip. Just admit that you were wrong and that Arabic indeed has foreign loan words like all human languages and stop idolizing Arabic.
Peace,
Ayman
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After having read what you said may I tell you one thing more which is common between Root "Barq" and Brocade. The effect of lightening on sight is that immediately after flash there is a dark shade. And again read about Brocade that its peculiar feature which is created with great skill by some brainy Chinese is exactly what is the effect of Barq. Iron shackles put around ones brain don't let enter any evidence into it. However I enjoyed the rescue taken in old exegeses.
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I think that this plus the fact that its Persian origin is readily obvious is why even the staunchest Arab nationalists and the early linguists readily concede that it is a loan word from Persian (See Al-Siyuti, Al-Jawahri, Al-Kindi, Ibn Al-Athir).
Some say Syriac. Write the Persian word for Brocade and let me see your logic to call this Arabic word as persian.
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Your foolish logic is like saying that " " is derived from an Arabic root " " (meaning somthing like "stare" and is of the form " " and this because people spend hours borwsing (staring) at the internet!!
elektro
Ayman, this is one of your best quotes ever ! i really laughed my head off at it ! rotfl
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Your foolish logic is like saying that " " is derived from an Arabic root " " (meaning somthing like "stare" and is of the form " " and this because people spend hours borwsing (staring) at the internet!!
Ayman, this is one of your best quotes ever ! i really laughed my head off at it !
Internet is a word describing a system of communication. If a word is made by Arabs to describe the same system that word may be such which will convey the perception to people who might not even have heard or known about internet, and that cant be called a borrowed word. Internet might have been a meaningless word to our grandfathers, 60-70 years back.
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I posted this topic for constructive discussion on trying to find out a way on getting more details on weights but why has it lost direction. If some one doesn't agree that grammar has to be used as one of the tools to study the Qur'an better or rules and guidelines should be used, then they are free to hold their opinion, but they don't have to try fill their ideas on topics that are not focused on this type of discussion but rather on collecting data.
I am busy and don't like to discuss issues too much, rather am gathering data and doing research, but anyway I can spend a few minutes a week to post some of my comments regarding the issue
And the caim regarding Rahmaan coming from the weight Raa Haa Miim Nuun is very rare. Most sects and schlars consider the root Raa Haa Miim and if you claim some other language then what does it have to do with an Arabic Root Raa Haa Miim Nuun. Is Sabaean language also written with these letters, I don't think so. Raa Haa Miim is the root and is almost unanimously agreed. Can you give some Muslim sites claiming that the Name Rahmaan has nothing to do with Mercy?
Is Qur'an the main criteria for us or some 1000s of years old inscriptions, then who interpreted those inscriptions into English. Even if Rahmaan name is found in some old texts, so what's the big deal. A Name of Allah even if mentioned in some other text isn't something so shocking. So if Rahmaan is the name, how can someone claim that It is original in some language other than Arabic, while Arabic was chosen as the vehicle for the Preserved, Inimitable and Miraculous word of Allah. The best and most advanced language is Arabic, so why not a name which is formed in Arabic and whose interpretation is taught via Prophets (peace be upon them)
If you believe Qur'an is the ultimate benchmark, then why are you finding some old isolated cases e.g Rahmaan to to away with even similar weights like Furqaan, Burhaan, Qur'aan.
And on what basis are you claiming it is Raa Haa Miim Nuun as the root and not Raa Haa Miim. Do you believe the same for Furqaan, Burhaan, Qur'aan
I don't believe in authenticity of your claim, you may not agree regarding my claim, so lets discuss with something we both agree on, the Qur'an and after fully discussing all instances of
Rahmaan and related forms in the Qur'an with Ayat context can you or I jump to other evidences. Uness you don't believe the Qur'an is the Miraculous and Flawless Word of Allah, revealed in the Most eloquent language of the world ever... Arabic. Then it will be a completely different discussion an interfaith discussion, but as believers in Qur'an discussion should 1st make the Qur'an the Benchmark. The Ultimate Criteria. The Furqaan. Raa Haa Miim roots to also be discussed and Raa Haa Miim Nuun if any, I don't think so. And any other such 4 letter Roots in the Qur'an. Borrowed from another language, a Name of Allah? why. Why not original in the Most eloquent language in existence and this name used in past generations too if done from Arabic. For Allah Arabic was never something new.
11, 13, 2163, 1330, 17110, 1918, 1926, 1944, 1945, 1958, 1961, 1969, 1975, 1978, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 205, 2090, 20108, 20109, 2126,
2136, 2142, 21112, 2526, 2359, 2560, 2560, 2563, 265, 2730, 3611, 3615, 3623, 3652, 412, 4317, 4319, 4320, 4333, 4336, 4345, 4381, 5033, 551, 5922, 673,
6719, 6720, 6729, 7837, 7838
Have a look at all occurrences of Rahmaan in the Qur'an and think about it.
And what about the other Names and Qualities like Al-Quddoos, Ar-Raheem, Al-Qayyoom, Subhaan, etc. how do you translate them, using some weight method and grammar also, or copy from some where and then how do you justify your interpretation of these translations.
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I agree that it is not simply the roots but the usage around the time the revelation of the Quran that is important, and in one (mindless) thread I had used the examples of 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' to put things in perspective.
Another point to consider is that Arabic was a well developed language by the time of the Quran's revelation, with standardized usage. Any contention to the contrary would require scrutiny.
The usage of 'r-h-m' as mercy in Arabic and Sabaean is established, so that's not an issue. Look up this thread for Rahman, it might help
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/rhmnn.html
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I agree that it is not simply the roots but the usage around the time the revelation of the Quran that is important, and in one (mindless) thread I had used the examples of 'n-f-q' and 'k-f-r' to put things in perspective.
Another point to consider is that Arabic was a well developed language by the time of the Quran's revelation, with standardized usage. Any contention to the contrary would require scrutiny.
The usage of 'r-h-m' as mercy in Arabic and Sabaean is established, so that's not an issue. Look up this thread for Rahman, it might help
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/rhmnn.html
With regard to the claim that al-Rahmn was a South Arabian Moon-god, the missionaries have not provided any evidence. This is not surprising since the website from which they have lifted the material did not do so either! This is sufficient to cast doubt over their entire allegation that al-Rahmn was a South Arabian Moon-god. The missionaries have also claimed to have "shown" something else, i.e., al-Rahmn was a deity worshipped by pagans in South Arabia and that it remains an "uncontested fact". It is also alleged that this is an undisputed point of agreement. Furthermore, they have asserted that al-Rahmn of the South Arabian pagans was a pagan deity and not the same al-Rahmn worshiped by the Jews and Christians. Their claims can be summarised as follows
I further showed that one of the attributes and titles which the Quran ascribes to Allah, namely ar-Rahman or "the Merciful", was also the name of a pagan god worshiped in South Arabia....
Whether ar-Rahman was a name for a moon deity or not, this fact would still remain uncontested? ar-Rahman was a pagan god worshiped by the pagans in Southern Arabia. Even the authors admit this in their rebuttal which leads me to my second point....
What we were claiming is that the ar-Rahman of the South Arabian pagans was a pagan deity and not the same Rahman worshiped by the Jews and Christians....
They had a pagan god by that name, but they did not know about him; Allah knew such stupid stories will emerge. He has already made it evident
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.60.gif
And when it was said for them, "you people prostrate for Ar'Reh'maan"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.60a.gif
They replied, "And what is Ar'Reh'maan; should we prostrate for that which you command us"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/025.%20Al%20Furqan/25.60b.gif
And it increased their aversion. -
I appreciate your reference, buddy.
Here is 2559
Who created the heavens and the earth, and what between them is, in six days, then sat Himself upon the Throne, AlRahmaan ask any informed of Him!
When I read that verse (creating the heavens and the earth and all between them) it gives me a picture of Might. But that's just my view and I don't claim to be right. So I am keeping my options open. I will probably look at verse 2561-63 more closely. I guess I need to think this over more.
Jeez, buddy, you are right. Your thread lost direction big time.
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Might is reflected by this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.66.gif
In keeping with the promised word when the time of Our Command reached, We rescued/saved Saleh and those who had believed along with him with the mercy from Us , and saved them to watch the humiliation on that day.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/011.A%205.gif
Indeed, O you the Messenger, your Sustainer Lord is the Absolutely Powerful, Absolutely Dominant.Ar Rehmaan being Ar Raheem does not mean that He should not punish the criminals. Rewarding the righteous and punishing the criminals is the manifestation of Rehmat. In fact majority of the traits are but reflection and manifestation of mercy, which Ar Rehman imposed upon Himself of His Own choice, since might and power cannot be dicted for doing something, before deciding to create. He brought His infinite Power and Might under the Umbrella of Mercy whereby His Absolute Power is also beautiful otherwise might has an element of negativity, generally speaking.
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Researcher,
You pose an interesting question.
As I understand it, most of the intensive forms of adjectives haven't been assigned levels of intensity. I believe they are primarily used to express a stronger meaning of the root adjective.
In his Arabic Grammar William Wright places the feminine of any intensive adjective above the masculine. Example, 3allaamah (ة is more intense than 3allaam (م. However, he doesn't make a distinction between , , , etc.. Therefore, and - according to Wright - are to be understood as reflecting the same meaning.